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Which is what I'm saying is true of the reverse position, if people really thought this was going to bring about the christian version of a handmaid's tale (or whatever that book's called) why aren't we seeing firebombings? Clearly they don't believe in it. /s
The difference is shutting down an abortion clinic by violent means actually has a direct connection to the cessation of abortions committed in those specific buildings by those specific people. Randomly bombing churches has no real connection to the abortion issue, and in fact, some of the craziest anti-abortionists are people like Eric Rudolph who are vocally anti-Christian and had entirely different reasons for his acts of terrorism. It's not like they're forcing women to bear children at gunpoint in the churches themselves.
 
The difference is shutting down an abortion clinic by violent means actually has a direct connection to the cessation of abortions committed in those specific buildings by those specific people. Randomly bombing churches has no real connection to the abortion issue, and in fact, some of the craziest anti-abortionists are people like Eric Rudolph who are vocally anti-Christian and had entirely different reasons for his acts of terrorism. It's not like they're forcing women to bear children at gunpoint in the churches themselves.
I disagree that it's altogether that much different as bombing a single abortion clinic isn't about stopping the abortions inside but an attack on the institution committing them. An attack on a church would be similar. I hope you'd agree that no reasonable person thinks the bombing of an abortion clinic is solely for the purpose of stopping that lone, singular abortion clinic from performing them.

Or are you going to tell me that Tarrant shot up mosques because he specifically had a problem with those specific locations and not the institutions behind them? In a similar fashion if you thought that churches were the arm of the institution (Christianity) that is the most public-facing and vulnerable that is against you, your argument that they're not bombing them as an act of terrorism also applies. It doesn't just suddenly not apply to pro-choice people because of mental gymnastics.

And further I'd argue the whole discussion is a moot point as the "you don't really care!" cop-out, used unironically as an argument, is in part an admission of defeat as much as ad-hominems or any other method of engaging the subject rather than the argument(s) they're making is a way of avoiding the actual discussion in favor of dismissal of the participants. On top of that, it's a weird thing to do to try and reverse "no true scotsman" a group of people that you disagree with. It's a weird version of concern trolling and it doesn't further the discussion at-hand in any meaningful way and only really serves as an odd, distracting tangent.
 
The thing is I don't think they do. If they really believed that a single fertilized ovum was equivalent to a child and that millions were being murdered by birth control, they'd be bombing CVSes. Saying a single cell is the moral equivalent of an adult human is lunacy on such a level I honestly can't even understand it.

But more importantly, even people actually fully opposed to things like birth control (which prevents an already fertilized ovum from implanting into the placenta) don't treat it as if it's actual murder.

Once you have something that could be born and survive just fine, it's hard to say at that point you have something that is either fully a human life or so close to it as to be deserving of moral consideration.

Even at that point, though, there are things like a placental abruption. Basically the placenta fails massively and it's an immediate medical emergency. Usually they can save both the mother and infant. Sometimes, though, the only choice is to pick one, and that's going to be the mother. Under the laws currently being proposed, whoever saved her life would be subject to criminal prosecution so they'd have to just sit and watch her die while doing nothing of use.

It used to be the majority opinion, of the public and even the Supreme Court, that this was okay, and Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., one of the most well regarded of jurists to this day, specifically. As he famously stated in Buck v. Bell, upholding the sterilization of a retard (although today there is actually some question as to the veracity of the actual diagnosis): "Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

You can really blame Hitler for giving the whole thing a bad name. Too bad because there are definitely people who shouldn't be fucking reproducing. I guess I'll just have to cope, because I suppose having these goddamn retards around is better than having the kind of tyrannical government you'd need to do anything about them.
You once suggested you were Catholic so you may already know this. Essentially every human being is made in the image of God. I thought about this and realized EVERY human being. Senior citizens. Image of God. Middle Age. Image of God. 20 something's. Image of God. Teenagers. Image of God. Children. Image of God. Toddlers. Image of God. Infants. Image of God. With a view like that, it really wouldn't make logical sense to say "you are a person at this arbitrary point." So saying someone is a person even when they are a few cells that are the foundation of life would make sense.

Think about the seed for an oak tree. Would you decide that the seed is a separate part of the tree or a stage in the trees life cycle?

I do agree that the lack of outrage doesn't make sense in that way
 
You once suggested you were Catholic so you may already know this. Essentially every human being is made in the image of God. I thought about this and realized EVERY human being. Senior citizens. Image of God. Middle Age. Image of God. 20 something's. Image of God. Teenagers. Image of God. Children. Image of God. Toddlers. Image of God. Infants. Image of God.
God is the DMT monster trying to talk to you but you have no clue what he's saying because you're scared shitless.
 
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And further I'd argue the whole discussion is a moot point as the "you don't really care!" cop-out, used unironically as an argument, is in part an admission of defeat as much as ad-hominems or any other method of engaging the subject rather than the argument(s) they're making is a way of avoiding the actual discussion in favor of dismissal of the participants.
I'm not accusing them of concern trolling, as I think they actually do think the practice they're opposing is deeply immoral on a fundamental level. I'm just saying their actual actions are inconsistent with their excessive rhetorical claims. I don't believe this is a huge reach.
 
I'm not accusing them of concern trolling, as I think they actually do think the practice they're opposing is deeply immoral on a fundamental level.
Neither am I, on the contrary I'm saying that saying stuff like this:
I'm just saying their actual actions are inconsistent with their excessive rhetorical claims.
comes off as a strange form of concern trolling.
I don't believe this is a huge reach.
To condense my point: "you're not as concerned as you say you are because you're not committing acts of terrorism and barbarism" is a nonsensical way to look at the claims and could apply to either side as they're equivalent in the most hyperbolic points of their rhetoric.

But I think it's more important that as I pointed out, the level to which one "actually" cares about their argument shouldn't matter when you're discussing a topic like abortion. It matters about as much as their race, sex, appearance, etc. which is why I brought up ad-homs. Either their arguments are shit or they're not. My take is that if abortion is legal and easily accessible, then men should have the option to negate all parental rights they have to opt-out of child support. If places outlaw or severely limit abortion, I think child support should be more punitive and mandatory.

The moral aspect I have my own opinions on but on a topic as grey in morality as abortion I don't think one side or the other should have any claim to being "in the right". And as a libertarian I don't think there's many good examples of enforcing an arbitrary moral standpoint on a populace that has a large segment which vehemently disagrees.
 
My take is that if abortion is legal and easily accessible, then men should have the option to negate all parental rights they have to opt-out of child support.
This is kind of a separate issue, but as with how these arguments generally go, we're probably going to get nowhere on the original point. That said, I'd generally agree that the party who chose to bring a child into the world when the other partner would have chosen not to bears that moral responsibility.

However, in actual practice, this would result in more welfare babies who have to be supported by the taxpayer. These kind of sperm donors who leave a trail of bastard children behind them would love to force their living fleshlights to abort if they could get out of child support.

About the only thing I agree with Alito on is not that RvW was wrongly decided, but that its ratio decidendi was absolute shit and it was doomed as a precedent from the moment it was put on paper. Nobody should be surprised by this.
 
This is kind of a separate issue, but as with how these arguments generally go, we're probably going to get nowhere on the original point. That said, I'd generally agree that the party who chose to bring a child into the world when the other partner would have chosen not to bears that moral responsibility.

However, in actual practice, this would result in more welfare babies who have to be supported by the taxpayer. These kind of sperm donors who leave a trail of bastard children behind them would love to force their living fleshlights to abort if they could get out of child support.
I do wonder if that's true. I would think that it would be true as a region with pro-life laws around abortion initially grew into them, but I would also assume that it would drop off as people adjust to the consequences of them. I'm not sure if there's data that would go back far enough on welfare recipients to show if what you're saying is true or not, and I don't know where I'd begin to start if I were in the mood for looking it up, but that's the kind of point that needs data to back it up one way or the other. Otherwise it's just speculation based on assumptions.

Aside from that aspect, assuming you're correct then that would indicate a problem with the welfare system, not whether abortion is illegal/restricted or what we had under RvW. What you're talking about already goes on, and there is an argument to be made that crashing the welfare system through overloading it would be a net positive.
About the only thing I agree with Alito on is not that RvW was wrongly decided, but that its ratio decidendi was absolute shit and it was doomed as a precedent from the moment it was put on paper. Nobody should be surprised by this.
True. I've been reading/hearing for years now that this was going to be inevitable.
 
Which is what I'm saying is true of the reverse position, if people really thought this was going to bring about the christian version of a handmaid's tale (or whatever that book's called) why aren't we seeing firebombings? Clearly they don't believe in it. /s
Just give them a minute maybe? I'm convinced that many NPCs e.g. really did believe George Floyd was an innocent man hunted down and murdered by a racist police officer for example, I'm optimistic that they'll step up on this issue too.

I'm not accusing them of concern trolling, as I think they actually do think the practice they're opposing is deeply immoral on a fundamental level. I'm just saying their actual actions are inconsistent with their excessive rhetorical claims. I don't believe this is a huge reach.
tbh I can't understand why aborting a regular fetus is actual literal murder but aborting a rape fetus is a-ok. Like if a woman has consensual sex with a man, then he rapes her right after, do you have to figure out which round resulted in conception?

I haven't managed to wrap my brain around equal protection either. If everyone is only equally free to marry somebody of the opposite sex and same race, that's unconstitutional... but if I want to marry my sister, now the Nazi States of Amerikkka is suddenly ok to step in and say our love isn't valid, probably based on some outdated eugenics bullshit? (It's not some kind of creepy sibling fetish thing, we're in a committed relationship.)
 
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Just give them a minute maybe? I'm convinced that many NPCs e.g. really did believe George Floyd was an innocent man hunted down and murdered by a racist police officer for example, I'm optimistic that they'll step up on this issue too.
Granted, but I think that's missing the point I was making a bit.
tbh I can't understand why aborting a regular fetus is actual literal murder but aborting a rape fetus is a-ok. Like if a woman has consensual sex with a man, then he rapes her right after, do you have to figure out which round resulted in conception?
The child would grow up being a product of rape and a reminder of the trauma to their own mother and her family.
I haven't managed to wrap my brain around equal protection either. If everyone is only equally free to marry somebody of the opposite sex and same race, that's unconstitutional... but if I want to marry my sister, now the Nazi States of Amerikkka is suddenly ok to step in and say our love isn't valid, probably based on some outdated eugenics bullshit? (It's not some kind of creepy sibling fetish thing, we're in a committed relationship.)
I'd get into the weeds on this philosophically but the gist is that not only is incest severely damaging to society, but it's a case where both (or more) participants are abusing one another. All parties involved are simultaneously the victim and the perpetrator of the crime, assuming it's "completely consensual".
 
It's hard not to get off into the weeds when this isn't even a precedent we're talking about. This is why I'm not actually going to read the opinion until it is a precedent. These kinds of SCOTUS decisions are an enormous slog and I'm not really interested in reading 100 pages of Alito stroking his dick about what a genius he is twice.

If I ever do read the draft it will be after reading the actual opinion. We don't even know if this is ultimately the actual opinion. Consider what it might turn into if Roberts gets his meathooks into some power struggle about stare decisis and manages to bring one of the (presumably) current minority aboard if the scope of the decision is narrowed.

I don't really think that will happen, but the current opinion may only broadly resemble the ultimate outcome.

The unfortunate aspect of a leak like this is that whatever the ultimate outcome is, it will be seen as lacking legitimacy because was the outcome merely the result of political pressure applied after the leak? We'll never know.

This kind of anarchist bomb-throwing has no place in a judiciary.
 
tbh I can't understand why aborting a regular fetus is actual literal murder but aborting a rape fetus is a-ok. Like if a woman has consensual sex with a man, then he rapes her right after, do you have to figure out which round resulted in conception?
The “three exceptions” position commonly bandied about is just pro-abortion, just more restrictive.

The only honestly consistent position is “sometimes we don’t care” or “abortions for nobody and sometimes the woman dies, tough breaks”.
 
The “three exceptions” position commonly bandied about is just pro-abortion, just more restrictive.

The only honestly consistent position is “sometimes we don’t care” or “abortions for nobody and sometimes the woman dies, tough breaks”.
Abortion but only for people rich enough to fly their whore debutante daughters wherever it's legal.
 
The “three exceptions” position commonly bandied about is just pro-abortion, just more restrictive.

The only honestly consistent position is “sometimes we don’t care” or “abortions for nobody and sometimes the woman dies, tough breaks”.
basically, yeah
the 'sanctity of life' argument is for the religious. the rest of us generally dont consider the fetus to be a real person (yet). but i don't consider it a worthless clump of cells that can be discarded at will either - it's a developing organism that is in the process of growing into a real human. if you want to destroy it, you better have a damn good reason for doing so, otherwise you're just engaging in senseless cruelty and brutality against your own flesh and blood. and the more time passes, the closer it gets to being a human person, so with each passing day the act of killing it becomes more and more reprehensible.
 
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If I ever do read the draft it will be after reading the actual opinion. We don't even know if this is ultimately the actual opinion. Consider what it might turn into if Roberts gets his meathooks into some power struggle about stare decisis and manages to bring one of the (presumably) current minority aboard if the scope of the decision is narrowed.
I kind of want Roberts to rage out and rewrite Alito even harder and then browbeat it into 9:0 opinion. For funsies.
 
I'd get into the weeds on this philosophically but the gist is that not only is incest severely damaging to society, but it's a case where both (or more) participants are abusing one another. All parties involved are simultaneously the victim and the perpetrator of the crime, assuming it's "completely consensual".
This argument was used against homosexuality too though?
 
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