SCOTUS to Overturn Roe V Wade according to draft opinion obtained by Politico - And here we go

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The Supreme Court has voted to strike down the landmark Roe v. Wade decision, according to an initial draft majority opinion written by Justice Samuel Alito circulated inside the court and obtained by POLITICO.
The draft opinion is a full-throated, unflinching repudiation of the 1973 decision which guaranteed federal constitutional protections of abortion rights and a subsequent 1992 decision – Planned Parenthood v. Casey – that largely maintained the right. “Roe was egregiously wrong from the start,” Alito writes.
“We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled,” he writes in the document, labeled as the “Opinion of the Court.” “It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives.”


Deliberations on controversial cases have in the past been fluid. Justices can and sometimes do change their votes as draft opinions circulate and major decisions can be subject to multiple drafts and vote-trading, sometimes until just days before a decision is unveiled. The court’s holding will not be final until it is published, likely in the next two months.
The immediate impact of the ruling as drafted in February would be to end a half-century guarantee of federal constitutional protection of abortion rights and allow each state to decide whether to restrict or ban abortion. It’s unclear if there have been subsequent changes to the draft.
No draft decision in the modern history of the court has been disclosed publicly while a case was still pending. The unprecedented revelation is bound to intensify the debate over what was already the most controversial case on the docket this term.
The draft opinion offers an extraordinary window into the justices’ deliberations in one of the most consequential cases before the court in the last five decades. Some court-watchers predicted that the conservative majority would slice away at abortion rights without flatly overturning a 49-year-old precedent. The draft shows that the court is looking to reject Roe’s logic and legal protections.
Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences. And far from bringing about a national settlement of the abortion issue, Roe and Casey have enflamed debate and deepened division.”
Justice Samuel Alito in an initial draft majority opinion
A person familiar with the court’s deliberations said that four of the other Republican-appointed justices – Clarence Thomas, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett – had voted with Alito in the conference held among the justices after hearing oral arguments in December, and that line-up remains unchanged as of this week.


The three Democratic-appointed justices – Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan – are working on one or more dissents, according to the person. How Chief Justice John Roberts will ultimately vote, and whether he will join an already written opinion or draft his own, is unclear.
The document, labeled as a first draft of the majority opinion, includes a notation that it was circulated among the justices on Feb. 10. If the Alito draft is adopted, it would rule in favor of Mississippi in the closely watched case over that state’s attempt to ban most abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy.
A Supreme Court spokesperson declined to comment or make another representative of the court available to answer questions about the draft document.
POLITICO received a copy of the draft opinion from a person familiar with the court’s proceedings in the Mississippi case along with other details supporting the authenticity of the document. The draft opinion runs 98 pages, including a 31-page appendix of historical state abortion laws. The document is replete with citations to previous court decisions, books and other authorities, and includes 118 footnotes. The appearances and timing of this draft are consistent with court practice.
The disclosure of Alito’s draft majority opinion – a rare breach of Supreme Court secrecy and tradition around its deliberations – comes as all sides in the abortion debate are girding for the ruling. Speculation about the looming decision has been intense since the December oral arguments indicated a majority was inclined to support the Mississippi law.
Under longstanding court procedures, justices hold preliminary votes on cases shortly after argument and assign a member of the majority to write a draft of the court’s opinion. The draft is often amended in consultation with other justices, and in some cases the justices change their votes altogether, creating the possibility that the current alignment on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization could change.
The chief justice typically assigns majority opinions when he is in the majority. When he is not, that decision is typically made by the most senior justice in the majority.

‘Exceptionally weak’​

A George W. Bush appointee who joined the court in 2006, Alito argues that the 1973 abortion rights ruling was an ill-conceived and deeply flawed decision that invented a right mentioned nowhere in the Constitution and unwisely sought to wrench the contentious issue away from the political branches of government.
Alito’s draft ruling would overturn a decision by the New Orleans-based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals that found the Mississippi law ran afoul of Supreme Court precedent by seeking to effectively ban abortions before viability.

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Roe’s “survey of history ranged from the constitutionally irrelevant to the plainly incorrect,” Alito continues, adding that its reasoning was “exceptionally weak,” and that the original decision has had “damaging consequences.”
“The inescapable conclusion is that a right to abortion is not deeply rooted in the Nation’s history and traditions,” Alito writes.
Alito approvingly quotes a broad range of critics of the Roe decision. He also points to liberal icons such as the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe, who at certain points in their careers took issue with the reasoning in Roe or its impact on the political process.
Alito’s skewering of Roe and the endorsement of at least four other justices for that unsparing critique is also a measure of the court’s rightward turn in recent decades. Roe was decided 7-2 in 1973, with five Republican appointees joining two justices nominated by Democratic presidents.
The overturning of Roe would almost immediately lead to stricter limits on abortion access in large swaths of the South and Midwest, with about half of the states set to immediately impose broad abortion bans. Any state could still legally allow the procedure.
“The Constitution does not prohibit the citizens of each State from regulating or prohibiting abortion,” the draft concludes. “Roe and Casey arrogated that authority. We now overrule those decisions and return that authority to the people and their elected representatives.”
The draft contains the type of caustic rhetorical flourishes Alito is known for and that has caused Roberts, his fellow Bush appointee, some discomfort in the past.
At times, Alito’s draft opinion takes an almost mocking tone as it skewers the majority opinion in Roe, written by Justice Harry Blackmun, a Richard Nixon appointee who died in 1999.
Roe expressed the ‘feel[ing]’ that the Fourteenth Amendment was the provision that did the work, but its message seemed to be that the abortion right could be found somewhere in the Constitution and that specifying its exact location was not of paramount importance,” Alito writes.
Alito declares that one of the central tenets of Roe, the “viability” distinction between fetuses not capable of living outside the womb and those which can, “makes no sense.”
In several passages, he describes doctors and nurses who terminate pregnancies as “abortionists.”
When Roberts voted with liberal jurists in 2020 to block a Louisiana law imposing heavier regulations on abortion clinics, his solo concurrence used the more neutral term “abortion providers.” In contrast, Justice Clarence Thomas used the word “abortionist” 25 times in a solo dissent in the same case.


Alito’s use of the phrase “egregiously wrong” to describe Roe echoes language Mississippi Solicitor General Scott Stewart used in December in defending his state’s ban on abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy. The phrase was also contained in an opinion Kavanaugh wrote as part of a 2020 ruling that jury convictions in criminal cases must be unanimous.
In that opinion, Kavanaugh labeled two well-known Supreme Court decisions “egregiously wrong when decided”: the 1944 ruling upholding the detention of Japanese Americans during World War II, Korematsu v. United States, and the 1896 decision that blessed racial segregation under the rubric of “separate but equal,” Plessy v. Ferguson.
The high court has never formally overturned Korematsu, but did repudiate the decision in a 2018 ruling by Roberts that upheld then-President Donald Trump’s travel ban policy.

The legacy of Plessy v. Ferguson​

Plessy remained the law of the land for nearly six decades until the court overturned it with the Brown v. Board of Education school desegregation ruling in 1954.
Quoting Kavanaugh, Alito writes of Plessy: “It was ‘egregiously wrong,’ on the day it was decided.”
Alito’s draft opinion includes, in small type, a list of about two pages’ worth of decisions in which the justices overruled prior precedents – in many instances reaching results praised by liberals.
The implication that allowing states to outlaw abortion is on par with ending legal racial segregation has been hotly disputed. But the comparison underscores the conservative justices’ belief that Roe is so flawed that the justices should disregard their usual hesitations about overturning precedent and wholeheartedly renounce it.
Alito’s draft opinion ventures even further into this racially sensitive territory by observing in a footnote that some early proponents of abortion rights also had unsavory views in favor of eugenics.
“Some such supporters have been motivated by a desire to suppress the size of the African American population,” Alito writes. “It is beyond dispute that Roe has had that demographic effect. A highly disproportionate percentage of aborted fetuses are black.”
Alito writes that by raising the point he isn’t casting aspersions on anyone. “For our part, we do not question the motives of either those who have supported and those who have opposed laws restricting abortion,” he writes.
Alito also addresses concern about the impact the decision could have on public discourse. “We cannot allow our decisions to be affected by any extraneous influences such as concern about the public’s reaction to our work,” Alito writes. “We do not pretend to know how our political system or society will respond to today’s decision overruling Roe and Casey. And even if we could foresee what will happen, we would have no authority to let that knowledge influence our decision.”


In the main opinion in the 1992 Casey decision, Justices Sandra Day O’Connor, Anthony Kennedy and Davis Souter warned that the court would pay a “terrible price” for overruling Roe, despite criticism of the decision from some in the public and the legal community.
“While it has engendered disapproval, it has not been unworkable,” the three justices wrote then. “An entire generation has come of age free to assume Roe‘s concept of liberty in defining the capacity of women to act in society, and to make reproductive decisions; no erosion of principle going to liberty or personal autonomy has left Roe‘s central holding a doctrinal remnant.”
When Dobbs was argued in December, Roberts seemed out of sync with the other conservative justices, as he has been in a number of cases including one challenging the Affordable Care Act.
At the argument session last fall, Roberts seemed to be searching for a way to uphold Mississippi’s 15-week ban without completely abandoning the Roe framework.
“Viability, it seems to me, doesn’t have anything to do with choice. But, if it really is an issue about choice, why is 15 weeks not enough time?” Roberts asked during the arguments. “The thing that is at issue before us today is 15 weeks.”

Nods to conservative colleagues​

While Alito’s draft opinion doesn’t cater much to Roberts’ views, portions of it seem intended to address the specific interests of other justices. One passage argues that social attitudes toward out-of-wedlock pregnancies “have changed drastically” since the 1970s and that increased demand for adoption makes abortion less necessary.
Those points dovetail with issues that Barrett – a Trump appointee and the court’s newest member – raised at the December arguments. She suggested laws allowing people to surrender newborn babies on a no-questions-asked basis mean carrying a pregnancy to term doesn’t oblige one to engage in child rearing.
“Why don’t the safe haven laws take care of that problem?” asked Barrett, who adopted two of her seven children.
Much of Alito’s draft is devoted to arguing that widespread criminalization of abortion during the 19th and early 20th century belies the notion that a right to abortion is implied in the Constitution.
The conservative justice attached to his draft a 31-page appendix listing laws passed to criminalize abortion during that period. Alito claims “an unbroken tradition of prohibiting abortion on pain of criminal punishment…from the earliest days of the common law until 1973.”


“Until the latter part of the 20th century, there was no support in American law for a constitutional right to obtain an abortion. Zero. None. No state constitutional provision had recognized such a right,” Alito adds.
Alito’s draft argues that rights protected by the Constitution but not explicitly mentioned in it – so-called unenumerated rights – must be strongly rooted in U.S. history and tradition. That form of analysis seems at odds with several of the court’s recent decisions, including many of its rulings backing gay rights.
“We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled. The Constitution makes no reference to abortion, and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision....”
Justice Samuel Alito in an initial draft majority opinion
Liberal justices seem likely to take issue with Alito’s assertion in the draft opinion that overturning Roe would not jeopardize other rights the courts have grounded in privacy, such as the right to contraception, to engage in private consensual sexual activity and to marry someone of the same sex.
“We emphasize that our decision concerns the constitutional right to abortion and no other right,” Alito writes. “Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion.”
Alito’s draft opinion rejects the idea that abortion bans reflect the subjugation of women in American society. “Women are not without electoral or political power,” he writes. “The percentage of women who register to vote and cast ballots is consistently higher than the percentage of men who do so.”
The Supreme Court remains one of Washington’s most secretive institutions, priding itself on protecting the confidentiality of its internal deliberations.
“At the Supreme Court, those who know don’t talk, and those who talk don’t know,” Ginsburg was fond of saying.
That tight-lipped reputation has eroded somewhat in recent decades due to a series of books by law clerks, law professors and investigative journalists. Some of these authors clearly had access to draft opinions such as the one obtained by POLITICO, but their books emerged well after the cases in question were resolved.
The justices held their final arguments of the current term on Wednesday. The court has set a series of sessions over the next two months to release rulings in its still-unresolved cases, including the Mississippi abortion case.
 
The Puckle gun wasn't like a machine gun each barrel had to be manually reloaded.; also it sucked compared to other repeating guns of the period. Sorry to burst your bubbles' Empire Total War bros.
Ian McCollum of ForgottenWeapons.com said:
Joseph Chambers invented a repeating flintlock weapon in the 1790s, and I think it is appropriate to consider it a "machine gun". The design used a series of superposed charges in one or more barrels, with specially designed bullets that has hollow central tubes through them. This would allow the fire form a detonation charge to transit through a bullet at the rear and set off a subsequent charge. The result was a single trigger pull to use a flintlock action to start an unstoppable series of shots. Chambers made pistol and musket versions, as well as a full-on mounted machine gun.

He submitted his design to the fledgling US War Department in 1792, but it was not accepted. He brought the guns back to their attention when the War of 1812 was declared, and this time he found an eager client in the United States Navy. More than 50 of the machine guns were built and purchased to use on Navy warships. This version had 7 barrels, each loaded with 32 rounds, for a total of 224 shots, at (apparently) about a 120 round/minute rate of fire. The British found out about the guns and made some effort to reverse engineer them, and there was also interest in France, the Netherlands, and Spain. Ultimately, the potential unreliability of the system prevented more widespread adoption, but the gun is a fascinating example of early automatic firearms.

For more information, see Andrew Fagal's article: https://ageofrevolutions.com/2016/10/…
There are lots of examples of pre-1800 semi automatic firearms, too many for one post, but you mentioned machine guns so here’s an early one. Chambers’ gun is a machine gun that the US government purchased only a few years after the Constitution was signed.
 
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Except concealable weapons did exist.

The 16th Century flintlock pistol is kind of a famous one for people jamming into their waistband.

Paper cartridges (pretty much a bullet) were common in the 17th Century

The Puckle Gun also begs to differ.

Firearms are a bit more complex than people think.
I think the point that they evolved since the 18th century still stands. I shouldn't have used guns as the example. It's just an example where originalists are fine expanding the concept over time
 
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I don't understand this rehashing of the 2A.

The fight for personal ownership of a firearm as a right and any chance of the right being interpreted as not being part of the Constitution is done. Some might say they we should be wary and I agree but the left is perfectly happy with the current situation.

_124227395_us_gun_culture_map_v2_640-2x-nc.png
States that ban or regulate 'assault weapons'

As one can see from the chart above, we have about 10 states in total that can be anti or semi anti firearms. That leave about 40 states where firearms are viewed more favorably. Of those 40 states about 25 can be solidly pro-gun given Constitutional Carry laws passed by the legislature. Next, we move to states that are shall issue CCW of which there are 40. This indicates a generally favorable view of firearms.

With 40 states that are pro firearms any move to reinterpret the 2A will be met with probably an even more permissive amendment to firearms.

constitutional-carry-apr-13-2022.jpg
 
So, being more specific about this, the accepted, (or at least commonly argued,) meaning of Ordered Liberties established in Glucksberg means the specific liberties that the signers would have considered at the time of signing? The alternative being something loosely along the lines of "liberty as a concept includes things the bulk of the citizens in the population consider as such, which may change over time." Obviously the alternative definition isn't defined well enough to actually be legally useful, but I'm a layman just wondering about if it falls under that umbrella somewhere.

In my original post, I referenced second amendment arguments, (popular ones, not legal scholarship ones, although there must be some mild overlap.) Anti-gun people say:

"people only had muskets you could defend your homestead or your state as part of a militia, but the general havoc your could bring an individual is limited. They never considered the idea of a concealable firearm, or magazines with multiple rounds, or even bullets. Therefore, it shouldn't apply."

As an outsider, this feels like a natural implication of originalism, although I don't support it myself. Personally, I agree with the, (seeming to me at least,) expansion of the arms the second amendment gives the right to bear over time. What is the scholarly difference between this changing meaning due to technological changes and the rigidity of Ordered Liberty based on tradition and history?
The counter-argument I would make (as extremely not a lawyer myself) is that private citizens were allowed to own weapons that were, in their time, equivalent to what the military had. Why should we not be allowed to do the same?
 
The counter-argument I would make (as extremely not a lawyer myself) is that private citizens were allowed to own weapons that were, in their time, equivalent to what the military had. Why should we not be allowed to do the same?
Fair, but they defined Liberty based on the common social norms at the time by originalist interpretations. I'm asking what cases the meaning evolves and what cases it stays rigid
@mandatorylurk
Didn't even think about that angle, and it makes total sense it would be someone from the liberal side to leak it and remain unknown.
That's a great way to make sure no one ever talks to you again and this is your last big scoop
 
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I want McNukes.

I recall once being told that there is actual precedent holding that the Second Amendment does not confer the right to use antipersonnel landmines on your property. If anyone could confirm or even better, cite this authority I would be very grateful.
 
Fair, but they defined Liberty based on the common social norms at the time by originalist interpretations. I'm asking what cases the meaning evolves and what cases it stays rigid

That's a great way to make sure no one ever talks to you again and this is your last big scoop
I believe the originalist stance on dealing with new things is that the legislature should decide how to handle them and the court should only step in if absolutely necessary, which would mean that an originalist justice believes the core principles the constitution attempts to describe are being violated. The core principles are never meant to change., but how an originalist believes they always existed comes down to an individual legal opinion. There is no sturdy consensus on how that works.
 
I recall some anti-2A types like to claim that it wouldn't have covered, for example the private ownership of cannons. The funny thing is, most cannons at the time of the Revolution/Framing were actually privately owned and rented to the Continental Army. You could privately own a warship bristling with cannon, and privateering with gov't approval was an actual business. If you could own a warship, why wouldn't you be able to own a rifle with a pistol grip, foldable stock, and barrel shroud?
 
I don't know where they're getting that if we overturn RvW that it will be hunting season on fags and racial segregation. But let's hope they're right.
Considering most Repubs nowadays have Hispanic or Asian wives - see Chris Rufo - them throwing out interracial marriage would be too much even for them. It's post Hart-Celler; no Repub is going to be THAT racially aware. They more or less gave up on Obergefell and now focus their issues on Roe, the one thing that manages to bring the party together.
Damn it sure is weird how we managed to climb our way up to being the most prosperous nation in history while infanticide wasn't a nationally protected thing and have been on a fuckin downhill slide ever since it got passed and the nuclear family began eroding.
Nah, fam. It started going downhill when you gave Jews emancipation, allowed slaves to become citizens instead of repatriation, and most of all, removing the gold standard from wealth in 1913.

You can argue it's been on a downhill slide since then. Because the 60's saw massive social upheaval and Roe was not law, and not to mention Hart-Celler opened the gates.

The nuclear family began eroding when it became impossible to support children on just one wage.
What gave you the impression "bodily autonomy" was recognized in US law?
Touche.
You have bodily autonomy for those issues enshrined by actual legislation, no need to go into a parade of horribles. Roe is an issue because it's not based on the constitution, but on some supposed eternal set of fundamental rights that can't be named and are invoked whenever a panel of nine unelected elites decide they want to justify a new right. Obergefell is just as similarly a bad decision because it rests in fundamentally extraconstitutional grounds.
I've heard it said Roe could have been codified when Obama was in power; when he had the Senate and the House under his thumb, but he shirked it. Plus there has been the admission that the pro life side has been galvanized and is on the offensive while abortion supporters are on the defensive. When you have social power, you'll do anything to keep it.
LOL, your side is the one that wants to use SCOTUS as a shortcut to "create" laws because you are too lazy to put it into law the correct way, via constitutional amendment. Now you are one screeching and flinging your feces because it backfired on you.

I swear, the only ones more retarded than the American Left are the Canadian Left, who appear to believe that Roe v. Wade somehow affects Canadian law. FLASH FACT: It doesn't. The Supreme Court of Canada struck down Canada's abortion laws in the 1988 decision, R v Morgentaler, so the (not-so) Great White North has no abortion laws whatsoever. Too bad the Liberals and NDP are too stupid to realize it.
Yeah those people are retarded. Our abortion laws were codified by both Parliament and the Supreme Court. Unless the Conservatives - and believe me, our conservatives are even more cucked than American ones - go full retard, that shit ain't getting repealed. Same with the UK.
View attachment 3257938View attachment 3257940View attachment 3257941View attachment 3257937View attachment 3257939

"MY JEWISH DOCTOR! HE SAVED MY MOMMA'S LIFE! WE NEED BABY MURDER! #CHRISTAINTALIBAN!"

What a mound of bullshit.
Nah, I believe it. The muh Jewish doctor might be hamming it up but the fact the hospital refused to save her mother despite it being a doomed pregnancy can and will happen. Especially if the hospital itself doesn't want to be sued, like those in Texas.

Waiting 72 hours for your mother to be saved, fake story or not, is abominable.
 
I recall some anti-2A types like to claim that it wouldn't have covered, for example the private ownership of cannons. The funny thing is, most cannons at the time of the Revolution/Framing were actually privately owned and rented to the Continental Army. You could privately own a warship bristling with cannon, and privateering with gov't approval was an actual business. If you could own a warship, why wouldn't you be able to own a rifle with a pistol grip, foldable stock, and barrel shroud?
These people failed to understand the history of 2A hell you can own a machine gun before a certain date 1897 I think. So machine guns and canons are legal to own.
 
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