War Don’t believe those who say ending Roe v Wade will leave society largely intact - The Guardian reeeeally needs a Xanax prescription (and so does Android Raptor)

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Now that the dust has begun to settle after the inital explosive news that the US supreme court is poised to overrule the right to abortion and that Justice Samuel Alito’s draft opinion in Dobbs v Jackson Women’s Health Organization represents what a majority of the court initially voted to do, among the most revealing ways to understand the devastation the court appears ready to wreak on America’s long march toward “liberty and justice for all” is to examine the kinds of arguments being made in the opinion’s defense.

The argument that such a ruling would simply return a divisive issue to the people had long since been widely dismantled. It certainly wouldn’t be returned to the people most profoundly affected once women were told they may have to remain pregnant despite whatever urgent reasons they might have for seeking a safe and legal abortion. It couldn’t be described as returning the abortion issue to the states, now that the possibility of a nationwide ban that the supreme court might uphold is on the horizon. And to the extent the issue is returned to the states, it would be returned to state legislatures so gerrymandered that they often represent the views of a distinct minority of the people anyway.

The argument that “only” abortion is involved because Alito’s draft assures readers that the supreme court’s opinion won’t be treated as precedent for anything that doesn’t involve killing an unborn human is both profoundly insulting and manifestly misleading. It insults every sentient person by minimizing the significance of commandeering the bodies and lives of half the population – and re-inserting government power into every family. And it misleads every reader of Alito’s words by suggesting that a court has the power to shape how future lawmakers and judges will build on its decisions and the reasoning underlying them. Alito’s hollow promise brings to mind similar assurances in notorious cases like Bush v Gore, is inconsistent with how the judicial process works, and wouldn’t offer any solace to anyone who might become pregnant or whose miscarriage might be treated as a crime scene for police to investigate.

The foolishness of the argument that there’s nothing to see here other than the future of abortion law is underscored by some of what is said in its support. We’re told not to worry about the future of decisions like Loving v Virginia, ensuring the right to marry someone of a different race than your own because, after all, Justice Clarence Thomas is in an interracial marriage. We’re told not to worry about the right to same-sex marriage because, after all, Justice Brett Kavanaugh would never vote to overturn Obergefell v Hodges, the most iconic opinion written by his proud mentor, Anthony Kennedy – the man who left the court only after he had hand-picked Kavanaugh as his successor. We’re told not to worry about contraception (despite the way quite a few people view Plan B or IUDs as forms of abortion) because even supreme court nominees like Amy Coney Barrett, who were cagey about just how “settled” a precedent they deemed Roe v Wade, said they couldn’t imagine anybody today challenging Griswold v Connecticut. All that prognostication is cold comfort to the millions of people whose lives are profoundly affected by these shaky predictions.

The most substantial argument is one that is equally fallacious but more sophisticated and in some ways more devious and dangerous: it is the argument that supreme court reversals of precedent, like the reversal of Plessy v Ferguson by Brown v Board of Education, are often to be welcomed as needed course corrections, and that this “course correction” wouldn’t be the first time the supreme court has rolled back decades-old constitutional rights. The many commentators who persisted in describing Alito’s draft in those terms – as an unprecedented retreat in the arc of ever-expanding rights – have recently been denounced as either inexcusably ignorant or deliberately duplicitous by distinguished scholars like Yale’s Akhil Amar, who says that every first-year law student learns that the very same thing happened during FDR’s second term as president, when the supreme court in 1937 in West Coast Hotel v Parrish overturned a long line of decisions that had blocked minimum wage and maximum hours and other worker-protection laws in the name of employers’ rights of “private property” and the “liberty of contract”. To be sure, Amar’s argument echoes that of the Alito draft, which cites Parrish and says, in effect, “nothing to see here, we did the same thing before” when we rolled back the liberty of contract line of decisions in 1937.

Justice Alito and Professor Amar are simply wrong: profoundly so. That so-called (and quite misleadingly labeled) “switch in time that saved the nine” was nothing like the switch that Dobbs would represent. The 1937 “switch” was no sudden politically driven turnabout but was in fact the culmination of long-simmering movements in legal and economic thought – movements that were reflected both in scholarship and in judicial opinions from the earliest days of the 20th century in places like Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’ dissent in Lochner v New York insisting that “the 14th amendment does not enact Mr Herbert Spencer’s social statics,” movements that represented the growing conviction that the “freedom” to work at low wages and in miserable conditions was an illusion lacking both moral and legal foundations and one that simply helped perpetuate economic inequality and the exploitation of relatively powerless, not-yet-unionized workers by wealthy and powerful corporations.

Indeed, it is noteworthy that West Coast Hotel v Parrishthe 29 March 1937 decision that is usually marked as the pivot point in the great constitutional upheaval – was handed down by precisely the same set of nine justices as the nine who had rendered a decision pointing in the opposite direction less than a year earlier, on 1 June 1936, in Morehead v New York ex rel Tipaldo. One justice of the nine, a moderate Republican named Owen J Roberts, who had been rethinking his position on the underlying legal theories, had foreshadowed his shifting views by writing a landmark opinion upholding milk price regulation, Nebbia v New York, by a 5-4 vote in 1934 – less than two months after the court had upheld a state mortgage moratorium law by a 5-4 vote in Home Building & Loan Ass’n v Blaisdell, a decision clearly foreshadowing the 1937 repudiation of Lochner’s legacy by reconceiving the meaning of the constitution’s clause forbidding all state impairments of the obligation of contracts.

That history is important to keep in mind if one is to understand the depth of the error made by those who seek to compare the 2022 tsunami that Dobbs would represent with the gradual shift in current represented by the 1937 movement away from liberty of contract to protection of workers and consumers. The head-spinning and altogether untimely switch in the supreme court’s abortion jurisprudence that Dobbs would represent – if the decision the court announces late this June or early July is in substance what the leaked Alito draft indicated it would be – will reflect not the steady maturation of a long-developing jurisprudential movement but the crude payoff to a partisan political program to take over the federal judiciary, one beginning with Ronald Reagan’s presidency and the rise of the Federalist Society, and advancing with supreme court appointments made by Republican presidents all of whom lost the popular vote (George W Bush, appointing Justice Alito and Chief Justice John Roberts; Donald J Trump, appointing Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett), and made in circumstances of dubious legitimacy.

Professor Amar treats as laughably naïve the observation by ACLU national legal director and Georgetown law professor David Cole that, although “Parrish took away some rights of business owners … its real effect was to expand rights protections for millions of Americans subject to exploitation by powerful corporations.” Amar’s rebuttal? He says, and I’m serious here, that it’d be equally legitimate to say that “Dobbs’ real effect would be to expand rights protection for millions of innocent, unborn Americans … unborn humans, subject to extermination by society.”
It’s hard to know where to begin in unraveling that alleged parallel. Suffice it to note that the status as rights-bearing persons of embryos and fetuses remains a matter of profound sectarian controversy in America and throughout the world while no such controversy attends the status as rights-bearing persons of the array of workers whose rights, at least under laws designed to limit economic exploitation if not directly under the constitution itself, were indisputably expanded by virtue of the Parrish decision and the overturning of the Lochner line of cases.

Perhaps no less important is the indisputable fact that, although there remain a few commentators who continue to think that Lochner was rightly decided and Parrish was wrong, there is a nearly universal consensus, certainly covering the ideological spectrum on the current supreme court, that the “rights” protected by Lochner and the other decisions that Parrish tossed into the dustbin of history were not constitutionally sacrosanct, and that inequalities of bargaining power prevented the common-law baseline that Lochner treated as immune to legislative modification from having any special constitutional status. At the same time, the notions of personal autonomy and bodily integrity that provide the constitutional foundation for the substantive “liberty” at stake in cases like Roe and Casey are almost universally accepted as real, although deep disagreements remain about whether, to what degree, and from what point in fetal development the protection of the unborn fetus can properly trump that liberty.

The upshot is that the radical change in law and society that Dobbs would represent truly has no parallel in the history of the supreme court or in the history of the United States. As David Cole writes, the “proper analogy is not Brown overruling Plessy, but a decision reviving Plessy, reversing Brown, and relegating Black people to enforced segregation after nearly 70 years of equal protection.” For, as Jamelle Bouie rightly observed, “equal standing is undermined and eroded when the state can effectively seize your person for its own ends – that is, when it can force you to give birth.” Whether or not one compares that compulsion and forced labor to literal enslavement, as I did in my 1973 article on Roe v Wade, attempts to minimize the huge retrogression this would represent must be dismissed as little more than shameful efforts to camouflage the carnage the supreme court of the United States is about to unleash both on its own legitimacy and, even more important, on the people in whose name it wields the power of judicial review.
  • Laurence H Tribe is the Carl M Loeb University Professor of Constitutional Law Emeritus at Harvard University, the author of numerous books and articles, a distinguished supreme court advocate, and holder of 11 honorary degrees

Literally half this article has nothing to do with Dobbs or Roe.

"If the law's on your side, argue the law. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If neither are on your side, throw an autistic shitfit".
 
If y'all honestly think that I will care more about "my right" to kill my unborn baby because I'm too lazy/retarded for birth control over the economy and border security when I Pokémon Go to the polls, you're surely mistaken.

Cope and seethe, suburban wine women and carpet munchers.

EDIT: Cope and Sneed, Android Raptor.

ETA: It's still coping and sneeding. A paragon of sociopathic mouth breathers.
 
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It'll be a society with a whole lot more dead women and girls and an equal (or higher) number of dead fetuses.

More dead babies too probably, both from the old fashioned wet-cloth-to-the-face-of-a-newborn method of dealing with unwanted pregnancies, and from shit like shaken baby syndrome and other ways people who should have never had kids tend to kill them (or get them taken away by CPS at least).
 
It'll be a society with a whole lot more dead women and girls and an equal (or higher) number of dead fetuses
Only in red states, and they want that so who cares?

And shit, if those niggas want an abortion for real, they legit only have to try like 100 miles to the state line instead of 90 miles to the city.

Anyone legit upset over RVW is either lazy, doesn’t understand it, or thinks women are not hyper-privileged in society and instead some lower class slave.
 
Only in red states, and they want that so who cares?

And shit, if those niggas want an abortion for real, they legit only have to try like 100 miles to the state line instead of 90 miles to the city.

Anyone legit upset over RVW is either lazy, doesn’t understand it, or thinks women are not hyper-privileged in society and instead some lower class slave.
Lots poor women don't even have a car. How the fuck are you supposed to cross state lines if you don't even have a car?

I don't doubt more dead women and girls isn't a plus for red states tho
 
Lots poor women don't even have a car. How the fuck are you supposed to cross state lines if you don't even have a car?

I don't doubt more dead women and girls isn't a plus for red states tho
I think you're forgetting about the real victims here. How will our trans sister brothers survive and thrive if they can't get access to safe abortions, you "Cis" women are so privileged that you are blind to the real human beans this affects.
 
Lots poor women don't even have a car. How the fuck are you supposed to cross state lines if you don't even have a car?
Yes, in the year of our lord 20XX women are such poverty and oppressed stricken masses that the concept of minor travel in the United States is a fantasy idea that can only be reached by the upper elite.

Even a broke ass 15 year old can catch the greyhound for less then like a big fast food meal. Come on, Android. Lol.
 
Only in red states, and they want that so who cares?

And shit, if those niggas want an abortion for real, they legit only have to try like 100 miles to the state line instead of 90 miles to the city.

Anyone legit upset over RVW is either lazy, doesn’t understand it, or thinks women are not hyper-privileged in society and instead some lower class slave.
Its probably a lot longer if you live somewhere like the middle of Texas. If you can't make the trip, I'm pretty sure there will be charities that'll front the cost to travel out of state. Baring that, just make a gofundme.
 
Let's separate Roe vs. Wade from whether abortions should be legal or not. Roe vs. Wade is horse shit because the legal reasoning is unfathomable. The court's reasoning for why abortions should be legal is that if abortions are not legal, then it somehow infringes upon the fourteenth amendment.

Here is the text of the 14th amendment:

Section 1​

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2​

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3​

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4​

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5​

The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Read Interpretations of Citizenship Clause
Do you see anything about motherfucking abortion in this amendment?

Roe vs. Wade conjures this whacky "right to privacy" as a right the 14th amendment protects, and banning abortions would somehow infringe on that right. It's complete moon logic, and the problem is that it keeps getting cited as precedent for other moon logic (e.g. we can do this new retarded thing with constitutional law because Roe vs. Wade).

I believe abortions should be legal federally, but the court's decision is logical.
 
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Yes, in the year of our lord 20XX women are such poverty and oppressed stricken masses that the concept of minor travel in the United States is a fantasy idea that can only be reached by the upper elite.

Even a broke ass 15 year old can catch the greyhound for less then like a big fast food meal. Come on, Android. Lol.
At 15 I could afford neither fast food nor a greyhound ride. I got money twice a year, at Xmas and my birthday and that was it.

There's also the fact that driving to a whole ass different state costs time as well, which poor women especially tend to not have in abundance especially if they already have kids (which is a good chunk of women who get abortions, women who already have kids and know they can't afford more).
 
At 15 I could afford neither fast food nor a greyhound ride. I got money twice a year at Xmas and my birthday and that was it.
Imagine being so privileged that at 15 you were not working a summer job or had some form of basic income for pocket cash.

At least baby sit if you hate the sun, teens.

There's also the fact that driving to a whole ass different state costs time as well, which poor women especially tend to not have in abundance especially if they already have kids

Ah yes, I suppose that could take away from League of Legends time or whatever.

If you are…
1. So poor you can’t afford a bus.
2. Unable to get one day of PTO
3. Already have kids.

Congrats, you are retarded, should give up the kids to their grandparents and neck yourself for not only being irresponsible drug addict or whatever for you to get into this mess, but a legit monster and loser in society.

The only person to blame at that point is you. And before you say “but…but… my rapes…” get a plan B then. Holy shit, lol.
 
"If you don't let us kill babies, then we'll kill babies! Or maybe we'll kill ourselves while we're killing the babies!"

...why would someone think anyone should care about the lives of those who would kill their own offspring?
"Let me kill my baby or else I'll kill my baby"

That's great sweetie, now into the nut house you go
 
Imagine being so privileged that at 15 you were not working a summer job or had some form of basic income for pocket cash.

At least baby sit if you hate the sun, teens.
To work a summer job you need a ride. My parents would bitch and moan for hours if they had to drive their kids to a doctor appointment, like hell were they gonna drive them to a job multiple days a week.

Would 15 year old me really be someone you'd trust with your kids?
 
At 15 I could afford neither fast food nor a greyhound ride. I got money twice a year, at Xmas and my birthday and that was it.

There's also the fact that driving to a whole ass different state costs time as well, which poor women especially tend to not have in abundance especially if they already have kids (which is a good chunk of women who get abortions, women who already have kids and know they can't afford more).
Then holy fuck, use some goddamn protection then if you are at this level. Condoms, pills, pull out and swallow for all i can care is cheap.
 
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