Opinion The folly of humiliating Russia - Someone remembers the Yeltsin era

The folly of humiliating Russia​


Calls that nothing short of a “true defeat” be visited on Russian President Vladimir Putin’s are growing in both frequency and intensity. And nowhere is this on more prominent display than in Anne Applebaum’s recent Atlantic piece calling for a victory over Russia that is rapid, comprehensive (involving military defeat, economic pain and even some type of NATO membership for Ukraine) and, above all, humiliating.

According to Applebaum, only such a profound and profoundly humiliating defeat will permanently chasten Russia. Only such a true defeat will “force the reckoning that should have happened in the 1990s…. the moment when Russians should have realized the folly of Moscow’s imperial overreach, when they should have figured out why so many of their neighbors hate and fear them.” Only such a true defeat, she avers, will end the historical pattern of Russian aggression and bring about permanent peace on its periphery.

But while it might be emotionally gratifying to issue such calls, and even to fantasize about inflicting terrible pain on such obvious malefactors, the goal of inflicting such a defeat on Russia must not become allowed to become policy. For if history teaches us anything relevant to the current conflict, it is that inflicting such a defeat would most definitely not have the salutary effect on international security that its advocates assume.

Indeed, quite the opposite. Inflicting a comprehensive and humiliating defeat on Russia would be far more likely to set the stage for further discord, conflict and war on Europe’s eastern marches than to usher in an era of regional peace and tranquility. To put it bluntly, indulging fantasies of inflicting near-total defeat on Russia would be a terrible mistake — one that we can, and must, avoid making.

To understand why inflicting a devastating defeat on Russia would be such a terrible mistake, it is necessary to pay attention to a motivating factor that is often overlooked or minimized in conventional accounts of foreign policy and grand strategy: humiliation. Most theories of international relations, of course, tend to assume rational actors, either anthropomorphized states or actual state officials seeking to rationally advance or defend the state’s national interest. While not entirely blind to “non-rational” factors in individual or collective decisionmaking, these approaches tend to systematically downplay or ignore the role of emotion in shaping the foreign policies of states.

But, as Clausewitz cautioned us long ago, emotions in general (or the passions, as he called them) can and do play an important role in foreign policy, especially when it comes to war. And as Joslyn Barnhart argues in her recent book “The Consequences of Humiliation: Anger and Status in World Politics,” historically, the specific emotion of “humiliation” has proven to be a major driver of foreign policy – especially the kind of revanchist and revisionist foreign policy that all too often leads to war.

Barnhart’s compelling argument begins with a definition: Humiliation “is a complex and negative self-conscious emotion, which combines the sense that one has been mistreated with a painful sense of self-doubt and helplessness in the face of this injustice.” It is the substrate for “national humiliation,” which “arises when individuals who identify as members of the state experience humiliation as the overwhelming emotional response to an international event.”


National humiliation occurs, Barnhart further argues, either when a state suffers “rapid defeat to a state with lesser military capability” or when it has “been unfairly undermined by ill-intended others.” Either way, such humiliation involves a “loss of status or prestige which they [policy makers] believe has undeservedly threatened the state’s image on the world stage.”

Finally, Barnhart shows how humiliated states have historically attempted to overcome their humiliation and restore their status and prestige by engaging in “the use of force against the state responsible for one’s humiliation or against third-party states that were not involved in the original humiliating event.”

Although Barnhart’s book was published before Russia reinvaded Ukraine earlier this year, its implications for today’s Russo-Ukraine war are perhaps obvious. Indeed, it doesn’t take much imagination to see how inflicting a devastating defeat on Russia of the kind Applebaum advocates would both humiliate the country’s leaders and incentivize them to take whatever steps they deem necessary – up to and including starting another war – to overcome this humiliation.

The strategic implications of this are perhaps obvious. As Barnhart notes in her conclusion, prudent policy that seeks to minimize both the humiliation of defeated states and all of the undesirable consequences of such humiliation should “avoid the codification of inferiority within formal and informal treaties and negotiations.”

They should avoid, in other words, imposing punitive treaties and settlements that formalize inferiority or that seek to diminish the defeated nation’s status or standing beyond some unavoidable minimum. In the absence of a 1945-scale total victory by one side or the other (which is obviously not in the cards), this suggests that the goal now should be a negotiated settlement that leaves both Russia and Ukraine (a) exhausted, (b) relatively satisfied and (c) as little humiliated as possible.


This doesn’t imply letting Russia off lightly, of course. But then, at this point, there is simply no way that Russia could be let off the hook lightly. It has already been chastened by its devastating battlefield defeats and the biting economic sanctions it incurred following its invasion. It has already been broken as a conventional military power and seen its soft and sharp power capacities sharply diminished. In short, it has already been made to pay a significant price for its war of aggression. Indeed, it has probably already suffered a significant national humiliation, though nothing compared to what it would suffer if near-total defeat on the battlefield were to be amplified by near-total defeat at the negotiating table.

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One way of thinking about the current war in light of Barnhart’s argument is to conclude that perhaps a Russian battlefield defeat – which I will define as a failure to win consequential battlefield victories or to make significant post-Feb. 23 territorial gains, while incurring significant human and material losses – is enough to chasten Moscow without raising the level of national humiliation to the point where a future war is guaranteed.

Perhaps history teaches us, in other words, that now is not the time to follow Applebaum’s advice and dial Russia’s national humiliation up to eleven. Perhaps, instead, it is the time to strike a deal — to offer Putin a “golden bridge” that allows him to bring the war to an end without amplifying Russia’s humiliation to the point where, following a protracted period of seething and rebuilding, Moscow unleashes another war on its western neighbor.
 
Putin doesn't need any help humiliating himself or Russia at this point. I might be down for giving him Donbass only because we're looking to have a united Europe staring him down. Worth noting the other countries bordering them like Finland have no expectations of Russia ceasing to be a threat any time soon.

Donbass may not be America's to give, as the war isn't over. A major point of this war is a struggle over whether or not America gets to call the shots in Ukraine, or Russia does. The USA has had Russia-friendly governments in Ukraine overthrown twice now in order to make Ukraine an American satellite state, and for the next round...Russia just rolled in the tanks. If Russia is successful, it means that American soft power tools--color revolutions, CIA advisers, weapons shipments, arming the moderate rebels, etc--can't stand up to artillery barrages. Washington is going much harder than it did in Syria, and if they fail this time, it will discredit them much more than their failure to defeat Assad did.
 
Are you living under a rock? Their economy is fucking plummeting. And with America making them unable to pay denbts, they're going to default eventually. And losing Swift, and losing Nordstream 2.

The thing Russia is independent enough for autarky. they will recede economically back into 1990s in everything except military funding and they will keep coming.
 
God, I love this cope. :story:
>Noooooo, you can't use the currency of the most powerfull economy in the worl, you got to take our Rubles and Yuan, who are about as useful as toilet paper.

I'm confused, do you think the petrodollar system isn't a real thing, or do you think the US hasn't attacked countries and fomented coups in order to protect it?
 
The folly of force feminizing Vladimir Putin.
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Donbass may not be America's to give, as the war isn't over. A major point of this war is a struggle over whether or not America gets to call the shots in Ukraine, or Russia does. The USA has had Russia-friendly governments in Ukraine overthrown twice now in order to make Ukraine an American satellite state, and for the next round...Russia just rolled in the tanks. If Russia is successful, it means that American soft power tools--color revolutions, CIA advisers, weapons shipments, arming the moderate rebels, etc--can't stand up to artillery barrages. Washington is going much harder than it did in Syria, and if they fail this time, it will discredit them much more than their failure to defeat Assad did.
Considering the military losses the Russians are taking to prove this point, I wonder whether it would be worth the effort. The US likely wants out of Europe anyhow in order to focus it's attention on the Pacific theater. Trading the US for now-stirred NATO staring across the border doesn't change much for Russia.
 
Considering the military losses the Russians are taking to prove this point, I wonder whether it would be worth the effort. The US likely wants out of Europe anyhow in order to focus it's attention on the Pacific theater. Trading the US for now-stirred NATO staring across the border doesn't change much for Russia.

If Washington wanted out of Europe, they wouldn't have taken the political risk of imposing food and fuel shortages on American voters, weaponized SWIFT, and hurled as many Stingers and Javelins as they could into Ukraine just to try and keep control of what is essentially a third-world country.
 
This means Ukraine is winning, right?
It is complicated and too early to tell, but the Russians performing worse in every way and do not have the power to keep this op forever.

Ukraine lacks the heavy weapons to take the fight to the Russians, while they seem to be better trained and a stronger force overall. Attacking defensive positions takes more resources and arms and the Ukrainians don't have them. This could change as they are provided weapons and heavy equipment by the Europeans/US, but it takes time.

The Russians on the other hand wasted a ton of resources, and a ton of manpower and gained very little if anything of value.
They are burning a ton of money as inflation skyrockets in Russia to stabilize the Rubel and keep it afloat, but that can not keep going as a business in Russia can no longer do business with their richest trading partner. They are on a ticking clock and need this war over as fast as possible as Europe their main piggy bank is moving away from Russian resources. Now if the war can end fast they can maybe convince some states to start using Russian resources again, but that is a long shot.

Even if Russia wins, it will still be a country that needs to completely rebuild its infrastructure to sell its resources to nations like China and India. The Brain drain will increase and honestly, i have no idea how they can come out on the other side in a winning position. They can take Ukraine, they can do what they need to in Ukraine, but the cost will be great.

From an EU/NATO/US standpoint. If either Ukraine or Russia wins, it is still a win for geopolitical ideas in the region.
NATO will expand to Finland and Sweden with galanvinced support from NATO members.
Europe is more pro-nato than ever before and building there military infrastructure and capabilities
US looks good to almost every nation that tends to be in their sphere of influence and their allies are increasing their military spending.

Ukraine is the only nation that can still get a win from this conflict.
 
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If Washington wanted out of Europe, they wouldn't have taken the political risk of imposing food and fuel shortages on American voters, weaponized SWIFT, and hurled as many Stingers and Javelins as they could into Ukraine just to try and keep control of what is essentially a third-world country.
Leaving Europe doesn't work if it entails Russia starting up another round of land-grabs while a weak and disinterested NATO/EU quakes in it's boots. Regardless of the outcome in Ukraine, we're on our way to a stronger NATO that can meet it's obligations. Once Europe can take care of itself they're in a better position to wean themselves off of our political influence and we're free to shift our resources elsewhere.
 
Israel shoots down US request to transfer weapons to Ukraine (Archive)

Tel Aviv has turned down a request from Washington to allow the transfer of anti-tank missiles from Germany to Ukraine, according to a report by US news outlet Axios.

Israeli officials are reportedly concerned that, by allowing the weapons transfer, Russian soldiers could be killed by the Israeli-made weapons, which in turn would lead to Moscow harming Tel Aviv’s “security interests” in Syria.

The Spike anti-tank missiles are produced in an Israeli-owned factory Germany under an Israeli license, and Tel Aviv has to approve their export.

Since the start of the war in Ukraine, Israel has found itself in a diplomatic row with Russia, as Kremlin officials have outlined that any assistance Kiev receives from Tel Aviv will be met with an appropriate response.

According tot Axios, the issue of the missiles transfer came up two weeks ago during a visit to Washington by the director general of the Israeli Ministry of Defense, Amir Eshel.

The Israeli official was reportedly asked by the Pentagon’s undersecretary for policy, Colin Kahl, for permission to have Germany export Spikes to Ukraine. However, Eshel said no, telling Kahl that Tel Aviv will only supply Kiev with non-lethal military equipment.

Russian forces invaded the neighboring state in late February, following Ukraine’s failure to implement the terms of the Minsk agreements and Moscow’s recognition of the Donbass republics of Donetsk and Lugansk.

In the intervening months, NATO has flooded Ukraine with weapons and mercenaries, prolonging a conflict that has already displaced millions.

At the same time, the relationship between Russia and Israel has become increasingly strained.

After Tel Aviv voted on 14 April in favor of a UN General Assembly resolution suspending Moscow’s membership in the UN Human Rights Council, the Russian foreign ministry called the move “a thinly veiled attempt” to use the Ukraine conflict in order to distract from Israel’s violations against Palestinians.

Russian officials also recently slammed Israel’s illegal occupation of Syria’s Golan Heights, while also criticizing Israeli officials for supporting the “neo-Nazi regime” in Ukraine.
 
It is complicated and too early to tell, but the Russians performing worse in every way and do not have the power to keep this op forever.

Ukraine lacks the heavy weapons to take the fight to the Russians, while they seem to be better trained and a stronger force overall. Attacking defensive positions takes more resources and arms and the Ukrainians don't have them. This could change as they are provided weapons and heavy equipment by the Europeans/US, but it takes time.

The Russians on the other hand wasted a ton of resources, and a ton of manpower and gained very little if anything of value.
They are burning a ton of money as inflation skyrockets in Russia to stabilize the Rubel and keep it afloat, but that can not keep going as a business in Russia can no longer do business with their richest trading partner. They are on a ticking clock and need this war over as fast as possible as Europe their main piggy bank is moving away from Russian resources. Now if the war can end fast they can maybe convince some states to start using Russian resources again, but that is a long shot.

Even if Russia wins, it will still be a country that needs to completely rebuild its infrastructure to sell its resources to nations like China and India. The Brain drain will increase and honestly, i have no idea how they can come out on the other side in a winning position. They can take Ukraine, they can do what they need to in Ukraine, but the cost will be great.

From an EU/NATO/US standpoint. If either Ukraine or Russia wins, it is still a win for geopolitical ideas in the region.
NATO will expand to Finland and Sweden with galanvinced support from NATO members.
Europe is more pro-nato than ever before and building there military infrastructure and capabilities
US looks good to almost every nation that tends to be in their sphere of influence and their allies are increasing their military spending.

Ukraine is the only nation that can still get a win from this conflict.
ask the people who are watching how their oil, gas, wheat and electricity is getting more expensive every week if they are pro NATO or not.
 
i hope you are first in line for a SATAN 2
LOL

Look, nobody gives a shit about your nuclear threats any more. This isn't the 80's where we think you might be a competent nation and not a bunch of vodka swilling retards draining the coolant from vehicles to drink.

You CLAIM to have this shit, but I'm willing to bet you've stripped the copper and aluminum out of your ICBM's to sell to the scrap yard for meth and porn.

"It can go MACH-55!"
Sure, Vlad, and you're gonna launch it from the moon, right?
 
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