Sneedforo

[Slav Power]

I don't see the point of writing a whole chat platform from scratch when you can host a Matrix server with Element which is almost a discord clone in UI.

Also reject Sneedforo, return to MyBB

It's because it's meant to be a simple forum chat, and having all the board specific chats available on the left side with simple notification blips for mentions would improve the usability quite a bit. Instead of opening multiple tabs for all the chats you could switch them on a single page.

 

[awoo]

It's because it's meant to be a simple forum chat, and having all the board specific chats available on the left side with simple notification blips for mentions would improve the usability quite a bit. Instead of opening multiple tabs for all the chats you could switch them on a single page.

I still don't think it's worth the coding effort versus a separate chat and working on moving away from NONFREE PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE xenforo. I'm not a forum janny tho

 

[Slav Power]

I still don't think it's worth the coding effort versus a separate chat and working on moving away from NONFREE PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE xenforo. I'm not a forum janny tho

Have you even read Null's reasoning of why it's possible and why it's worth implementing the new chat before the entirety of the new forum software is done? It's all in this very fucking thread mind you.

 

[SevenEightNine]

I still don't think it's worth the coding effort versus a separate chat and working on moving away from NONFREE PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE xenforo. I'm not a forum janny tho

If you get this thread locked again, so help me...

 

[awoo]

I almost never use chat anyways so I personally put little value on it. There are already throw away threads that act as chat

 

[Justtocheck]

Thanks Josh for the updates! I like learning about Rust so I'm happy to read updates about the forums. Glad it got re-opened

 

[Pee Cola]

All the error logs that start "silly"...that's not just to mock me, right?

I thought it was a homage to one of the greatest error messages of the 8-bit microcomputer BASIC era.

 

[⠠⠠⠅⠑⠋⠋⠁⠇⠎ ⠠⠠⠊⠎ ⠠⠠⠁ ⠠⠠⠋⠁⠛]

I don't see the point of writing a whole chat platform from scratch when you can host a Matrix server with Element which is almost a discord clone in UI.

Also reject Sneedforo, return to MyBB

have you ever

1. hosted a Matrix server (the costs of which, you paid for, and the shitty bugs of which you personally dealt with)?
2. or even interacted with someone who did the above?

And it's gonna have the Discord-like layout of chatrooms on the left with notification blips and all that? Say what you want about Discord mIRC, but they nailed the layout game.

FTFY vodka nigger

 

[awoo]

have you ever

1. hosted a Matrix server (the costs of which, you paid for, and the shitty bugs of which you personally dealt with)?
2. or even interacted with someone who did the above?

I am the process of setting one up on a personal server that I run. Haven't used Matrix very much for anything tho, just personal chats. But I don't expect any advanced features from rooms anyhow.

 

[Sam Losco]

Ideas to cut down on or even eliminate doubleposting easily:

• Only the last page of a thread should have the reply box. This kinda forces people to get to the end of a thread before replying to something.
• Don't have a "Reply" button that just immediately quotes that post, only have the "+Quote" button, or however you want to label it.

 

[⠠⠠⠅⠑⠋⠋⠁⠇⠎ ⠠⠠⠊⠎ ⠠⠠⠁ ⠠⠠⠋⠁⠛]

Ideas to cut down on or even eliminate doubleposting easily:

• Only the last page of a thread should have the reply box. This kinda forces people to get to the end of a thread before replying to something.
• Don't have a "Reply" button that just immediately quotes that post, only have the "+Quote" button, or however you want to label it.

or... programmatically prevent doubleposting

I am the process of setting one up on a personal server that I run. Haven't used Matrix very much for anything tho, just personal chats. But I don't expect any advanced features from rooms anyhow.

From what I've heard, you're in for a nightmare, at least if you're federating with other Matrix servers with any significant userbase. Probably fine for running a few internal chats though.

 

[888Flux]

Ideas to cut down on or even eliminate doubleposting easily:

• Only the last page of a thread should have the reply box. This kinda forces people to get to the end of a thread before replying to something.
• Don't have a "Reply" button that just immediately quotes that post, only have the "+Quote" button, or however you want to label it.

Why not just prevent the user from making a new post conditionally. For example if they were the last poster in the thread and the time between their last post was less than 6 hours, you could either only allow the user to post via editing their previous post or have the server merge any new posts into their last post with proper formatting and notify the user of doubleposting. Changing the UI rarely changes the way users interact with a site.

 

[awoo]

From what I've heard, you're in for a nightmare, at least if you're federating with other Matrix servers with any significant userbase. Probably fine for running a few internal chats though.

I would expect a KF Matrix server would not really interact with other servers, but I'm not very familiar with federation or if KF users are smart about not reusing accounts (some even use discord with their KF names)

 

[Manul Otocolobus]

I don't see the point of writing a whole chat platform from scratch when you can host a Matrix server with Element which is almost a discord clone in UI.

Also reject Sneedforo, return to MyBB

I'm beginning to understand why Null just wants to lock this thread...

 

[Flaming Dumpster]

I don't see the point of writing a whole chat platform from scratch when you can host a Matrix server with Element which is almost a discord clone in UI.

tbh as much as Element pisses me off, I can't help but agree with this. You can do SSO via OpenID Connect on Synapse so in this case all that needs to be done is developing an OAuth provider that supports forum identities. (given XF is a piece of shit and doesn't support acting as an OAuth provider)

No wheel reinvented and you get a well supported, easy to use and feature-packed chat system with the flexibility to allow mobile and desktop clients as well as element-web for the forum itself. Rate limiting, bans, channels, embedding, bots, roles, threading, etc. all there, ready to be used.

If the goal is for something incredibly fast but a little basic, what about IRC? You can self-host KiwiIRC as the web frontend for it. In that case you could write a services bot that can ingest those XF tokens and a KiwiIRC plugin to send them on connection so it's completely seamless.

There's also XMPP too!

Also reject Sneedforo, return to MyBB

SMF chads rise up!

hosted a Matrix server (the costs of which, you paid for, and the shitty bugs of which you personally dealt with)?

I've hosted a personal homeserver on and off and the quality of Synapse has gone up considerably in the last couple of years. It's still not lightweight but I get far fewer timeouts and it runs comfortably on a 2GB VM now. A forum-specific Matrix homeserver would probably have very limited or no federation and that's where a lot of bugs and performance issues come from anyway.

 

[awoo]

I'm beginning to understand why Null just wants to lock this thread...

I'm just stating the obvious that writing a whole chat client is a lot of work, when Matrix has surprisingly powerful bridging capabilities (possibly with forum account integration but I'm not sure how that works) with a premade Element web UI.

Also others in the thread have stayed the majority of issues come from federation, but Matrix makes it very easy to make new accounts so for anonymity reasons KF users really shouldn't be interacting with other servers.

 

[Manul Otocolobus]

I'm just stating the obvious that writing a whole chat client is a lot of work, when Matrix has surprisingly powerful bridging capabilities (possibly with forum account integration but I'm not sure how that works) with a premade Element web UI.

Also others in the thread have stayed the majority of issues come from federation, but Matrix makes it very easy to make new accounts so for anonymity reasons KF users really shouldn't be interacting with other servers.

The thing is, Null was discussing something he is going to implement. He wasn't asking for suggestions for a replacement. He wasn't asking for reasons why his idea sucked and should be replaced. His parameters for feedback were obvious and specific. It is essentially a guarantee that Null is implementing this the way he is for a very specific reason. Whatever his reason is, it doesn't matter, because he has already decided that it the way it will be done. When a project manager asks for something in a certain vein, that is what they are interested in. Generally speaking, unless one is providing information that is within the already specified parameters in the query for a project manager anything else, regardless of whether it is a revelation on par with Moses and his commandments, is nothing more than literal noise because that isn't what they asked for. The absolute only reason to mention anything other than what he requested is because there is an unbelievably horrible flaw in his theory of implementation that could be catastrophic in nature. I guarantee if that happened, he would want to know. But, that is literally the only rare exception.

(Writes this as a project manager that has asked for XYZ and gets ABC's from any number of other people that have absolutely nothing to do with XYZ and has wanted to use his mind to remotely cause their heads to detonate)

If for some reason I am wrong about this, may Dear Leader strike me dead.

 

[Flaming Dumpster]

The thing is, Null was discussing something he is going to implement. He wasn't asking for suggestions for a replacement. He wasn't asking for reasons why his idea sucked and should be replaced. His parameters for feedback were obvious and specific. It is essentially a guarantee that Null is implementing this the way he is for a very specific reason.

Neither @awoo nor myself said his idea "sucked and should be replaced". It's an issue of time and effort especially given Null is doing a lot of this work on his own. I think he mentioned in the last MATI that he spent about a week making the test version that was demonstrated on the stream. The chat certainly worked but it's just a proof of concept.

I don't doubt Null could write a decent chat client but it's just that it takes time away from everything else. Null isn't Terry A. Davis, he doesn't have unlimited time to spend on this stuff.

Also "His parameters for feedback were obvious and specific"? I re-read all of his posts here and I don't see anything like that. If Null doesn't want unsolicited feedback and ideas then that's fine, I'll stop posting in the thread, but I haven't seen that.

When a project manager asks for something in a certain vein,

Let's say Kiwi Widgets, LLC is designing an amazing new chat system to own the haters. The PM doesn't just sit in his office dreaming up all the technical specifics, the scope and effort required in a fully fleshed out design doc that is bestowed as the word of God to the peons. Questions such as "Do we need to build this from the ground up?" are discussed in meetings so you don't have people screaming "We're doing it wrong!" midway through the process.

I understand the frustration of PMs not getting what they asked for, but Null need only ask himself if doing it one way or another is appropriate. He has the flexibility to change course quickly if he feels it's needed and I don't think me and others giving our 2c worth is a problem.

Also you never know who might be reading these posts, somebody else might have a similar set of requirements for their own project and may find the suggestions helpful.

 

[Null]

I am literally not even going to read any post suggesting shit. I'm working on the chat shim and the rest of the forum is so unfinished it's not even worth discussing.



This is my little ADHD helper thing for getting tasks done, work is measured out in 25 minute blocks with 5 and 15 minute breaks. I wasn't adding tasks before but I'm trying to keep track of what I need to do still.

Once this is taken care of I can try deploying it to the forum.

Then, I'm going to move that work to a new branch for the xf compatible chat and diverge to main branch for the clean, standalone version.

New chat will have fewer features but will run 100x smoother. Since it's on the new codebase, I can keep working on it and have that work be viable in the new codebase.

Once that's deployed, the new main is cleaned up, I'll start progressing the actual forum to something I can show off. My hope is I can maybe crowdfund something for it on a mainstream platform, or just point to it as "no really I do work, see?" and motivate merch sales in fall.

 

[Null]