Lord of the Rings TV Series in Development - How could this POSSIBLY go wrong...

[mindlessobserver]

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You know how I know these idiots never read the source material? Galadrial was born before the first age. She was old when the two trees were young. By the Second age she is tens of rousands of years old. Depicting someone that old who spent thousands of years living in the court of the Valar as a brash young soldier is a breathtakingly brain dead take.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

You know how I know these idiots never read the source material? Galadrial was born before the first age. She was old when the two trees were young. By the Second age she is tens of rousands of years old. Depicting someone that old who spent thousands of years living in the court if the Valar as a brash young soldier is a breathtakingly brain dead take.

It gets even worse when she comes across like some angsty teenager in a rebellious phase.
I have no clue what Galadriel did before LOTR, but I suspect it wasn't Kung Fu and snappy one-liners.

 

[mindlessobserver]

It gets even worse when she comes across like some angsty teenager in a rebellious phase.
I have no clue what Galadriel did before LOTR, but I suspect it wasn't Kung Fu and snappy one-liners.

She was married and had children in the second age for one thing. If we get a sex scene with Galadrial and it's not with Celeborn I am going to be very upset. I can think of no greater betrayal of Tolkiens work (which has explicitly Catholic morality underpinning it) then to make Galadrial a fornicator.

Sex shouldn't even be in the show full stop, but you know a bunch of writers whose sole defining trait as people is where they put their genitals won't be able to help themselves.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

snappy one-liners.

I know people are going to blame Joss for this, but I want to remind you of the "I'M NO MAAAAUNNN!" line in Return of the King.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

She was married and had children in the second age for one thing. If we get a sex scene with Galadrial and it's not with Celeborn I am going to be very upset. I can think of no greater betrayal of Tolkiens work (which has explicitly Catholic morality underpinning it) then to make Galadrial a fornicator.

Sex shouldn't even be in the show full stop, but you know a bunch of writers whose sole defining trait as people is where they put their genitals won't be able to help themselves.

Well, what can I say, chances of Galadriel being a tradwife in this show are about as high as Chuck Wendig not having diddled an underage fangirl at a convention.

Instead, we can expect her to be either a slut or a lesbian or both. Fuck me, I just imagined her getting an abortion to show how progressive she is. I can imagine her pounding down some magic draught and dismissively going "So, all done. Let's go, these evil red-capped Orcs won't kill themselves."

 

[mindlessobserver]

I know people are going to blame Joss for this, but I want to remind you of the "I'M NO MAAAAUNNN!" line in Return of the King.

Yeah, but that line was in the books too, sort of. They had to abbreviate the exchange for film, but it is there.

A cold voice answered: “Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn! He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.”

A sword rang as it was drawn. “Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.”

“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. “But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Yeah, but that line was in the books too, sort of. They had to abbreviate the exchange for film, but it is there.

A cold voice answered: “Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn! He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.”

A sword rang as it was drawn. “Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.”

“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. “But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.

I am depressed now. Tolkien's writing is something else.
Just reading this short snippet sent shivers down my spine, that's how good it is.

It gets even better when you consider that Eowyn is almost certainly looking for death in this battle and thus has nothing to fear from the Nazgul.
Eowyn displays a very fatalistic kind of bravery in that moment. The desperate heroic deed of a person that thinks she has nothing left to lose.
Knowing that adds such a raw emotional layer to this scene.

 

[Absolutego]

Yeah, but that line was in the books too, sort of. They had to abbreviate the exchange for film, but it is there.

A cold voice answered: “Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn! He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.”

A sword rang as it was drawn. “Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.”

“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. “But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.

The whole line was actually a reference to the "No man of woman borne", "Well I was born by C-section" bit in Macbeth too. Tolkien was kind of obsessed with that play. The huorns walking to Helms Deep and killing Saruman's army was what little Tolkien hoped would happen when some of Macbeth's soldiers thought Birnam wood was moving.

 

[mindlessobserver]

I am depressed now. Tolkien's writing is something else.
Just reading this short snippet sent shivers down my spine, that's how good it is.

It gets even better when you consider that Eowyn is almost certainly looking for death in this battle and thus has nothing to fear from the Nazgul.

Very few authors had such a grasp of the English language ever, let alone in his generation. He really was a "once in a millenia" tier writer. You would think other writers would have more respect instead of an overweening desire to rub their crayons on his prose.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Very few authors had such a grasp of the English language ever, let alone in his generation. He really was a "once in a millenia" tier writer. You would think other writers would have more respect instead of an overweening desire to rub their crayons on his prose.

It really is a litmus test to see if a writer is worth their salt or not.
And depending on what kind of criticism is leveled, you can usually also tell what shortcomings the author has.
Tolkien excels in worldbuilding, he excels in the use of language, he excels in the use of topoi and themes, he excels in his attention to fine detail and the creation of a large bigger picture.
And to make one thing clear: You don't have to like Tolkien's writing, but as an author, you must understand its importance, you must be able to understand what makes it so special, you must understand its strengths and achievements.
Being an author and not respecting Tolkien for what he did is like being an artist and saying Rembrandt, DaVinci or Dürer are unremarkable.

That is not to say that Tolkien is perfect in every way, but what he did is so good, it has never been surpassed... but that's hardly surprising when you think about it.

LOTR is the culmination of a lifetime of research spanning various topics including religion, history, literature and philosophy. It is the culmination of a lifetime of vastly different experiences, spanning all the joys a human being can feel and the horrors of being a soldier during WW1 that only very few people felt (and lived to tell the tale). It is the culmination of a thought process and creative endeavour spanning decades.

If someone truly wanted to surpass Tolkien, it would have to be a person that dedicated decades of their life in a way that Tolkien did. You simply won't crank out a story and setting as finely crafted as Tolkien's creation without spending a lot of time, effort and dedication.

So it's kinda hilarious to see random dangerhairs trying to take a shot at this material with a show that can be summed up as "Generic fantasy with a double-dose of GoT-style smut and token minorities".
On one hand, you have an author that spent decades of his life to create a vibrant world with an extensive mythology, lingustics and millenia of history... and on the other, you have people who think the height of writing is Harry Potter.

 

[thx1138]

I am depressed now. Tolkien's writing is something else.
Just reading this short snippet sent shivers down my spine, that's how good it is.

It gets even better when you consider that Eowyn is almost certainly looking for death in this battle and thus has nothing to fear from the Nazgul.
Eowyn displays a very fatalistic kind of bravery in that moment. The desperate heroic deed of a person that thinks she has nothing left to lose.
Knowing that adds such a raw emotional layer to this scene.

Here's the entire exchange, and it is...well words fail me, so here it is:

Spoiler: Behold the majesty

But Théoden was not utterly forsaken. The knights of his house lay slain about him.... Yet one stood there still: Dernhelm the young, faithful beyond fear; and he wept, for he had loved his lord as a father. Right through the charge Merry had been borne unharmed behind him, until the Shadow came; and then Windfola had thrown them in his terror.... Merry crawled on all fours like a dazed beast, and such a horror was on him that he was blind and sick.... He dared not open his eyes or look up.

Then out of the blackness in his mind he thought that he heard Dernhelm speaking; yet now the voice seemed strange, recalling some other voice that he had known.

'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!'

A cold voice answered: 'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed.... 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'

The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. Very amazement for a moment conquered Merry's fear. He opened his eyes and the blackness was lifted from them. There some paces from him sat the great beast..., and above it loomed the Nazgûl Lord like a shadow of despair. A little to the left facing them stood she whom he had called Dernhelm. But the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her, and her bright hair... gleamed with pale gold upon her shoulders. Her eyes grey as the sea were hard and fell, and yet tears were on her cheek. A sword was in her hand, and she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes.

Éowyn it was, and Dernhelm also. For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow: the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope. Pity filled his heart..., and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate. At least she should not die alone, unaided.

The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he hardly dared to move.... Slowly, slowly he began to crawl aside; but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him, heeded him no more than a worm in the mud.

Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings.... Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Éowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings..., fair but terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.

Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground...; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing..., a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.

There is no TV show, or film, that can touch that level of sheer poetic beauty.
But TV doesn't care about beauty. This is about making Bezos' dick .01mm longer. That's all.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

I've never read LOTR in English, the German translation is marvelous, but Tolkien's writing has to be experienced in English I realize now.

I just love the somewhat archaic, but also very poetic style. You can tell that this style is based on centuries old epic poems and stories.
And then this magnificent language describes such amazing acts of bravery and heroism in the face of certain death.

But you can also tell, the way how Tolkien describes war and battle, that he knows first hand, not only how it looks, but also how it feels.

Genuine question: Is there a male warrior in LOTR that has a moment in combat as amazing as Eowyn? Cause I kinda feel like there are great acts of heroism, but Eowyn has to stand out, if not as the best, then easily the top 3. Which is kinda hilarious when you think about how the Dangerhairs will botch their STRANG WAHMAN characters. To these people, being a Karen means being a strong independent woman. And that's just silly.

 

[mindlessobserver]

If you also read it critically the very first thing that jumps out is there is not a single wasted word in the sequence. Tolkien does not waste any time being overly descriptive. Everything that needs to be there to create a vivid picture of the scene in your mind is there. Nothing more or less. Even cooler, the way he uses words like "Fell" and "Shivered" are not in their common forms at all, but he's set the scene so well the reader has no trouble in understanding what is going on. So much so most probably don't even notice.

 

[Dang Woodchucks!]

Pictured: White Hobbit plantation owners and their slave. Dated 2nd Age a few years before the great ethnic cleansing of the shire, that removed all non-white Hobbits.

Joking aside, the black hobbit looks like that monkey from Lion King, just drives home how shit this is.

One can only hope Amazon is tone-deaf enough to have the black hobbit that already looks like a racist caricature has his introduction doing something racist like picking cotton. I would be forced to watch at least one episode for that alone.

 

[Absolutego]

Thanks, @thx1138, now I'm starting my 12th re-read of the trilogy early. I wanted to finish the last two Dune books first!

 

[PenguinSuitAlice]

She was married and had children in the second age for one thing. If we get a sex scene with Galadrial and it's not with Celeborn I am going to be very upset. I can think of no greater betrayal of Tolkiens work (which has explicitly Catholic morality underpinning it) then to make Galadrial a fornicator.

Sex shouldn't even be in the show full stop, but you know a bunch of writers whose sole defining trait as people is where they put their genitals won't be able to help themselves.

It should be noted that Amazon does not have the rights to the Silmarillion. They only have rights to LotR and thus they cannot use the wealth of source material present elsewhere. They literally can only use stuff mentioned in the Lord of the Ring and its appendices. Expect characters with back stories in the 1st age as well as things in the Second Age that were elaborated in published notes or in Akallabêth to be heavily altered or nonexistent.

 

[PenguinSuitAlice]

Genuine question: Is there a male warrior in LOTR that has a moment in combat as amazing as Eowyn? Cause I kinda feel like there are great acts of heroism, but Eowyn has to stand out, if not as the best, then easily the top 3. Which is kinda hilarious when you think about how the Dangerhairs will botch their STRANG WAHMAN characters. To these people, being a Karen means being a strong independent woman. And that's just silly.

There are like 10 of those in the Silmarillion I can think of.
However, you asked for Lord of the Rings. These are some I can think of but none of them are actual combat, really. Gandalf held back the Balrog on the bridge in Moria, though he wasn't directly fighting it yet at that point. We don't see the true fight itself but instead just had it described to us after the fact. There is actually scarce actual 'action' in the story itself. Most of the battles happen outside the direct narrative and when they are the violence isn't really described in detail. Tolkien once famously was given a script for a movie adaptation of his work and sent it back with all the action scenes crossed out. He most definitely would have hated the Jackson movies for a slew a reasons on top of this (a sentiment his son shared).

I guess you could count Boromir's final battle too, but you don't see any part of that in the story. It isn't really even described either.
If you want excerpts in English I suppose I could post them.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

If you also read it critically the very first thing that jumps out is there is not a single wasted word in the sequence. Tolkien does not waste any time being overly descriptive. Everything that needs to be there to create a vivid picture of the scene in your mind is there. Nothing more or less. Even cooler, the way he uses words like "Fell" and "Shivered" are not in their common forms at all, but he's set the scene so well the reader has no trouble in understanding what is going on. So much so most probably don't even notice.

And to think that an author that unironically uses terms like "herkily-jerkily" thinks he can as much as kiss Tolkien's feet, let alone criticise his writing

One can only hope Amazon is tone-deaf enough to have the black hobbit that already looks like a racist caricature has his introduction doing something racist like picking cotton. I would be forced to watch at least one episode for that alone.

"Oh lawd, I'm been sayin' these here waytah melins sure be tastee Mr Bossman sir!"
-"Yes they are, Frodiquoh Blackins, yes they truly are.

It should be noted that Amazon does not have the rights to the Silmarillion. They only have rights to LotR and thus they cannot use the wealth of source material present elsewhere. They literally can only use stuff mentioned in the Lord of the Ring and its appendices. Expect characters with back stories in the 1st age as well as things in the Second Age that were elaborated in published notes or in Akallabêth to be heavily altered or nonexistent.

Which creates this really weird situation where Amazon actually has to betray the established lore, or else they might find themselves in a big lawsuit for using copyrighted material.

Think about it, if they make a story that fits with the Silmarilion, they are violating its copyright, so they have to betray it.

I mean, all this is entirely hypothetical, the whole project was started with the specific goal to shit on Tolkien's work...

 

[kūhaku]

All this talk has me wanting to read the books fully now, excited to get started

 

[mindlessobserver]

Genuine question: Is there a male warrior in LOTR that has a moment in combat as amazing as Eowyn? Cause I kinda feel like there are great acts of heroism, but Eowyn has to stand out, if not as the best, then easily the top 3. Which is kinda hilarious when you think about how the Dangerhairs will botch their STRANG WAHMAN characters. To these people, being a Karen means being a strong independent woman. And that's just silly.

The Battle of Pellenor fields is an echo of the great battles of the first age. Another fact that I am sure the woke will miss from tolkiens work is that to Tolkien, the March of history is not a good thing. Humanity is not progressing to a better future. It is degrading, moving further and further away from past glory. Each cycle of history being an imperfect imitation of the cycle that preceded it. Progress, far from being good is slowly moving the world further from its noble past. Tolkien is the fantasy equivalent of "The consequences of the industrial revolution..." in its purest form.

It's what the Jackson movies really captured. The depictions of Gondorian soldiers, in beautifully crafted Numenorian armor, fighting amidst ruins. The Great Kings of old, reduced to partisans in the wastelands. Even Galadrial, the greatest Elven queen, Princess of the Noldor who beheld the light of the Valar before the breaking of the world, is but an ethereal shadow weighed down by the last remaining choice in her eons long existence. To succumb to her pride, or to diminish herself totally at the end.

Compare this to the industrious orcs, mass producing weapons on assembly lines, birthing their young in common pits with no family, fed mass produced swill on unknown providence that exists solely to increase their numbers and serve their basic needs. But offer no joy. And over it all, they are ruled in love and fear by an unblinking eye that orders their society in perfect strategic harmony. Even if at the individual level they hate themselves, and everyone around them.

It's a scathing indictment of progress.


Progress to Tolkien is a bad thing, it's why each historical cycle is always a worse reflection of the prior cycle.

But God is in the machine. Gandalf mentions this to Frodo in Moria. Evil is not the only power at work. And Tolkiens catholic optimism saves his mythology from what is arguably personal nihilism that no doubt nearly consumed him in the Trenches of World War 1. God offers the grace of redemption.

In the first age, Fingolfin, high king of the Noldor elves rode out and challenged the black enemy Morgoth to single combat. They fought, and in the end Morgoth prevailed. Striking down the King of the Elves.

Eowyns battle with the Witch king is an echo of this earlier battle with Morgoth. But this time, Good won. Because the fire in a small Hobbits heart was kindled at the last moment and he struck out at the leg of the Witch King, making him vulnerable for Eowyn to strike the killing blow. Tolkien does not use the words "fire" and "flame" lightly. When he does, he is referring to the spirit of God.

God motivated the least among his children to great heroism, and in that moment mankind was redeemed for the fall of Numenor and a path was made to restore the line of the Numenorian kings despite their betrayal. So while the March of history is bad, God opens the way for men to halt its excesses and return to the path. And even atone for the sins of the past that led to the current bad circumstances.