Lord of the Rings TV Series in Development - How could this POSSIBLY go wrong...

I've never read LOTR in English, the German translation is marvelous, but Tolkien's writing has to be experienced in English I realize now.

Check this out, spoiler alert if you have never read the book.

But thereupon Éomer rode up in haste... and grief and dismay fell upon him as he came to the king's side and stood there in silence....

And he looked at the slain, recalling their names. Then suddenly he beheld his sister Éowyn as she lay, and he knew her. He stood a moment as a man who is pierced in the midst of a cry by an arrow through the heart; and then his face went deathly white; and a cold fury rose in him, so that all speech failed him for a while. A fey mood took him.

'Éowyn, Éowyn!' he cried at last: 'Éowyn, how come you here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!'

Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice calling: 'Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!'

And with that the host began to move. But the Rohirrim sang no more. Death they cried with one voice loud and terrible, and gathering speed like a great tide their battle swept about their fallen king and passed, roaring away southwards.

Tell me that doesn't bring a tear to your eye.

Genuine question: Is there a male warrior in LOTR that has a moment in combat as amazing as Eowyn? Cause I kinda feel like there are great acts of heroism, but Eowyn has to stand out, if not as the best, then easily the top 3. Which is kinda hilarious when you think about how the Dangerhairs will botch their STRANG WAHMAN characters. To these people, being a Karen means being a strong independent woman. And that's just silly.

Gandalf kind of. Against the Balrog. I say "kind of" only because it's hard to call Gandalf a "male warrior"; he's an angel, equal to the Balrog.
 
Check this out, spoiler alert if you have never read the book.

But thereupon Éomer rode up in haste... and grief and dismay fell upon him as he came to the king's side and stood there in silence....

And he looked at the slain, recalling their names. Then suddenly he beheld his sister Éowyn as she lay, and he knew her. He stood a moment as a man who is pierced in the midst of a cry by an arrow through the heart; and then his face went deathly white; and a cold fury rose in him, so that all speech failed him for a while. A fey mood took him.

'Éowyn, Éowyn!' he cried at last: 'Éowyn, how come you here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!'

Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice calling: 'Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!'

And with that the host began to move. But the Rohirrim sang no more. Death they cried with one voice loud and terrible, and gathering speed like a great tide their battle swept about their fallen king and passed, roaring away southwards.

Tell me that doesn't bring a tear to your eye.



Gandalf kind of. Against the Balrog. I say "kind of" only because it's hard to call Gandalf a "male warrior"; he's an angel, equal to the Balrog.
I feel like alot of regular movie audiences forget that Gandalf isn't a wizard but an angel
 
It’s implied in the book-Gandalf mentions his name was “Olorin” in the west. Though in all fairness, Gandalf’s role as odinic wanderer and guide to men is what readers need to know about him.

But the fact remains-Gandalf is an Angel, even if one operating under restraints.
 
This is supposed to be Celebrimbor, someone who we already know looks like. He looks like the most mannish elf I've seen so far.

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This is supposed to be Celebrimbor, someone who we already know looks like. He looks like the most mannish elf I've seen so far.

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I wonder how they're going to portray him now. The arc I see as natural for Celebrimbor at this point in his story is that of a easily persuaded, perhaps effete, but arrogant and intelligent young man. A dude on the rise coasting off natural talent. Casting an older dude kind of makes him just come off as a dupe (if they are loyal to the source material) who didn't realize what Sauron was. That's a much less interesting character arc, from my perspective.
 
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I wonder how they're going to portray him now. The arc I see as natural for Celebrimbor at this point in his story is that of a easily persuaded, perhaps effete, but arrogant and intelligent young man. A dude on the rise coasting off natural talent. Casting an older dude kind of makes him just come off as a dupe (if they are loyal to the source material) who didn't realize what Sauron was. That's a much less interesting character arc, from my perspective.
Forget that, imagine spending immortality looking like a used car salesman who was accidentally given a gospel choir's robes by the dry cleaner. This guy has succumbed quite a bit to the ravages of time, something elves (with a few antediluvian exceptions like Cirdan) don't do- again, something the Peter Jackson movies got right.

I don't know if Sauron is ever stated to be supernaturally charismatic, the way Saruman was, but he did go from prisoner of the Numenorians to masterminding their plan to invade heaven. And that was when they knew who he was.
 
I wonder how they're going to portray him now. The arc I see as natural for Celebrimbor at this point in his story is that of a easily persuaded, perhaps effete, but arrogant and intelligent young man. A dude on the rise coasting off natural talent. Casting an older dude kind of makes him just come off as a dupe (if they are loyal to the source material) who didn't realize what Sauron was. That's a much less interesting character arc, from my perspective.
Calling Celebrimbor young is a bit of a stretch. As of the time this story is set, he is like the third or fourth oldest elf (Not that he'd look much older). And as far as we know, only one of three elves left who can remember the two trees. It should be also noted that Celebrimbor rebuked the deeds of his father, grandfather, and uncles. He was definitely not arrogant if he tried to avoid their mistakes.
 
Calling Celebrimbor young is a bit of a stretch. As of the time this story is set, he is like the third or fourth oldest elf (Not that he'd look much older). And as far as we know, only one of three elves left who can remember the two trees. It should be also noted that Celebrimbor rebuked the deeds of his father, grandfather, and uncles. He was definitely not arrogant if he tried to avoid their mistakes.
good point, maybe they've nailed the casting with that in mind. I'll need to re-read his bit.
 
good point, maybe they've nailed the casting with that in mind. I'll need to re-read his bit.
No no. I agree that casting a man that looks middle-aged as an elf is weird and off-putting. The only elf that should look old is Círdan, who is the oldest elf in Middle-Earth. Old enough to have grown a beard. I don't mind a plot line where Celebrimbor tries to avoid his family's mistakes but ends up repeating them anyway. Not that this show will do that since they don't have the rights to the history of the house of Fëanor outside of the fact that he created the silmarils.
Fëanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore, but also the proudest and most selfwilled. He wrought the Three Jewels, the Silmarilli, and filled them with the radiance of the Two Trees, Telperion and Laurelin, that gave light to the land of the Valar. The Jewels were coveted by Morgoth the Enemy, who stole them and, after destroying the Trees, took them to Middle-earth, and guarded them in his great fortress of Thangorodrim. Against the will of the Valar Fëanor forsook the Blessed Realm and went in exile to Middle-earth, leading with him a great part of his people; for in his pride he purposed to recover the Jewels from Morgoth by force. Thereafter followed the hopeless war of the Eldar and the Edain against Thangorodrim, in which they were at last utterly defeated. The Edain (Atani) were three peoples of Men who, coming first to the West of Middle-earth and the shores of the Great Sea, became allies of the Eldar against the Enemy. There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn. By the last the long-sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line was restored. Lúthien Tinúviel was the daughter of King Thingol Grey-cloak of Doriath in the First Age, but her mother was Melian of the people of the Valar. Beren was the son of Barahir of the First House of the Edain. Together they wrested a silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth. Lúthien became mortal and was lost to Elven-kind. Dior was her son. Elwing was his daughter and had in her keeping the silmaril. Idril Celebrindal was the daughter of Turgon, king of the hidden city of Gondolin. Tuor was the son of Huor of the House of Hador, the Third House of the Edain and the most renowned in the wars with Morgoth. Eärendil the Mariner was their son. Eärendil wedded Elwing, and with the power of the silmaril passed the Shadows and came to the Uttermost West, and speaking as ambassador of both Elves and Men obtained the help by which Morgoth was overthrown. Eärendil was not permitted to return to mortal lands, and his ship bearing the silmaril was set to sail in the heavens as a star, and a sign of hope to the dwellers in Middle-earth oppressed by the Great Enemy of his servants. The silmarilli alone preserved the ancient light of the Two Trees of Valinor before Morgoth poisoned them; but the other two were lost at the end of the Firth Age. Of these things the full tale, and much else concerning Elves and Men, is told in The Silmarillion. The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants. At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow. Elros chose to be of Man-kind and remain with the Edain; bet a great life-span was granted to him many times that of lesser men. As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth, the Valar, the Guardians of the World, granted to the Edain a land to dwell in, removed from the dangers of Middle-earth. Most of them, therefore, set sail over Sea, and guided by the Star of Eärendil came to the great Isle of Elenna, westernmost of all Mortal lands. There they founded the realm of Númenor.
There's probably a few things in the main text that are mentioned too, but not much I'm sure.
 
Calling Celebrimbor young is a bit of a stretch. As of the time this story is set, he is like the third or fourth oldest elf (Not that he'd look much older). And as far as we know, only one of three elves left who can remember the two trees. It should be also noted that Celebrimbor rebuked the deeds of his father, grandfather, and uncles. He was definitely not arrogant if he tried to avoid their mistakes.
Except elves don't "age". They diminish. Ancient elves should be depicted as young adults with very severe depression. Its to contrast their immortal lives to human mortality. Mortality to Tolkien is a gift, not a curse. The elves, being unable to truly die instead over the millennia get weighed down by their memories until it becomes too great for them to bear.
 
Except elves don't "age". They diminish. Ancient elves should be depicted as young adults with very severe depression. Its to contrast their immortal lives to human mortality. Mortality to Tolkien is a gift, not a curse. The elves, being unable to truly die instead over the millennia get weighed down by their memories until it becomes too great for them to bear.
I was responding to the suggested story line that would portray Celebrimbor as a young and arrogant elf who gets tricked by Sauron through that. I wasn't saying that he looked physically old. And technically they do mature of a sort when they reach their "third cycle of life" and are able to grow facial hair like with absurdly old elves like Círdan. But then again, they don't have rights to Tolkien's notes on the life cycles of elves. They might be planning to drastically change that.

Honestly I'm curious how unrecognizable the show will be from the real source material. Even in the hands of good writers this situation would be incredibly difficult. I just hope that it is entertainingly bad.
 
Someone has noted that Galadriel if she has a “character arc” it basically means ignoring the entirety of the first age.

While this is contemptible, it’s also predictable. They don’t have access to the first age, and so why should Amazon’s writing staff feel any obligation to it?

On another note, apparently the showrunner has said the show’s ending has been planned out and no sequels or spin-offs are in the works.

I suppose that is a good thing, in that this abortion of a show has a clear expiration date.
 
The Battle of Pellenor fields is an echo of the great battles of the first age. Another fact that I am sure the woke will miss from tolkiens work is that to Tolkien, the March of history is not a good thing. Humanity is not progressing to a better future. It is degrading, moving further and further away from past glory. Each cycle of history being an imperfect imitation of the cycle that preceded it. Progress, far from being good is slowly moving the world further from its noble past. Tolkien is the fantasy equivalent of "The consequences of the industrial revolution..." in its purest form.

It's what the Jackson movies really captured. The depictions of Gondorian soldiers, in beautifully crafted Numenorian armor, fighting amidst ruins. The Great Kings of old, reduced to partisans in the wastelands. Even Galadrial, the greatest Elven queen, Princess of the Noldor who beheld the light of the Valar before the breaking of the world, is but an ethereal shadow weighed down by the last remaining choice in her eons long existence. To succumb to her pride, or to diminish herself totally at the end.

Compare this to the industrious orcs, mass producing weapons on assembly lines, birthing their young in common pits with no family, fed mass produced swill on unknown providence that exists solely to increase their numbers and serve their basic needs. But offer no joy. And over it all, they are ruled in love and fear by an unblinking eye that orders their society in perfect strategic harmony. Even if at the individual level they hate themselves, and everyone around them.

It's a scathing indictment of progress.


Progress to Tolkien is a bad thing, it's why each historical cycle is always a worse reflection of the prior cycle.

But God is in the machine. Gandalf mentions this to Frodo in Moria. Evil is not the only power at work. And Tolkiens catholic optimism saves his mythology from what is arguably personal nihilism that no doubt nearly consumed him in the Trenches of World War 1. God offers the grace of redemption.

In the first age, Fingolfin, high king of the Noldor elves rode out and challenged the black enemy Morgoth to single combat. They fought, and in the end Morgoth prevailed. Striking down the King of the Elves.

Eowyns battle with the Witch king is an echo of this earlier battle with Morgoth. But this time, Good won. Because the fire in a small Hobbits heart was kindled at the last moment and he struck out at the leg of the Witch King, making him vulnerable for Eowyn to strike the killing blow. Tolkien does not use the words "fire" and "flame" lightly. When he does, he is referring to the spirit of God.

God motivated the least among his children to great heroism, and in that moment mankind was redeemed for the fall of Numenor and a path was made to restore the line of the Numenorian kings despite their betrayal. So while the March of history is bad, God opens the way for men to halt its excesses and return to the path. And even atone for the sins of the past that led to the current bad circumstances.

It really is something that shows Tolkien's masterclass. He manages to create a world so dense with lore and so vibrant with atmosphere, you always have this sombre shadow over everything. I mean, the shire is kind of jolly and it is its own thing (which is also kind of the point: They get dragged into everything by the end), but every other place has always this melancholic atmosphere of a bygone glory that will never be reached. I wonder, is this theme of progress mirrored in small scale (pun not intended) with the razing of the shire? I guess to some degree, but the shire is then repaired and the Mallorn tree planted, so maybe that represents the glimmer of hope?

As for the rest of Middle Earth, the fellowship comes past a couple of statues like the Argonaths or the ruins of a tower like on Weathertop and you know these snow-white structures jutting from the ground like bones are what remains of a long-gone splendor that might never be reached again.
Even in places like Minas Tirith, that haven't fallen to ruin yet, you are made aware that they are still just a shadow of their former self and that they stand amidst decay and destruction. Minas Tirith, in that regard is very interesting and woven masterfully into the lore with ties to three other places: The Pelennor Fields, Osgiliath and Minas Morgul.

Minas Tirith itself is still standing strong, but you can tell it is declining, based on many empty houses and the general situation in the city.
The Pelennor Fields are surrouned by ancient walls that have fallen to ruin, a clear indication of the waning power of Minas Tirith.
From Minas Tirith, you can see Osgiliath, a city that has been destroyed by war.
Minas Tirith's sister-city Minas Ithil is now known as Minas Morgul, a city tainted by Sauron's vile influence.

When you read a lesser author's work that doesn't create a world as dense and vibrant as Arda, they mention a ruined city and you know, it's a ruined city. They mention old statues close to a road and you know it's old statues close to a road. In a certain way, they fill a gap in the lore and hint at something bigger, but it seldom really has this overwhelming feeling like it does in LOTR, where an old statue next to a road is so much more.

And the key difference is the worldbuilding, themes, atmosphere and tone of the entire story.

The thing about Tolkien's worldbuilding is that it allows us to have this exchange about the deeply rooted themes in his work and how they are woven into so many details everywhere.

If this Amazon-show was worth a damn, they'd show us the splendor of the second age and attempt to make us feel how insanely glorious the first age must have been by extrapolation. Just imagine, seeing Moria while it was still a glorious symbol of dwarven might and fortune. A smart show would show us pretty much the same locations used in LOTR, but bustling with live, bright and shining with gold and silver, polished marble and intricate craftsmanship that only dwarves can create.
Imagine the strongholds of elves in all their breathtaking beauty. Their forests running with silver streams, golden leaves all around, lush green fields and overflowing orchards.

I dread to think what Amazon will give us instead. I expect everything to be gritty and grubby. Cause gritty and grubby is grimderp and grimderp is super mature for mature audiences. Also tits and gore and...

... fuck me. It's actually kinda fun to think about. Tolkien portrayed progress as something that moves us away from an idealized past. It's nothing short of irony that this is now happening with people pretending to carry on his creation.
In a hundred years, people will still talk about the refined writing of Tolkien. In 5 years, no one will even remember Rings of Power.

Tell me that doesn't bring a tear to your eye.

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Oh no... it's raining.

Fun Fact: I have a burning hatred for the Jackson trilogy and one of the main reasons is how the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is ruined in the movie.
For the record, the other things that make me hate the movies are Sam's betrayal at Cirith Ungol, Elves/Legolas getting a reach-around at every turn and Gimli being turned into nothing but a blabbering idiot.

This is supposed to be Celebrimbor, someone who we already know looks like. He looks like the most mannish elf I've seen so far.

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No shit, when I saw that post, it took me 10 seconds to realize that the screenshot wasn't Jeremy Irons' character from that aweful DnD movie.
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