Should lolicon / shotacon be considered drawn child pornography?

[Kari Kamiya]

There's really no purpose to arguing semantics over loli, shota, and fake characters ages, just boil it down to this: If you are sexually attracted to childlike traits (physical or mental), you're a pedo.

While true, tiny adult women exist, and not just in anime (where it feels like in some cases, in ecchi especially, they give them explicit legal ages just to justify drawing loli bodies). So is it wrong to ogle a 20-year-old woman if she has the physique of a 12-year-old?

 

[Kermit Jizz]

While true, tiny adult women exist, and not just in anime (where it feels like in some cases, in ecchi especially, they give them explicit legal ages just to justify drawing loli bodies). So is it wrong to ogle a 20-year-old woman if she has the physique of a 12-year-old?

My issue with this is that I've never actually seen an adult woman who 100% looks like a child. Just because you look small slim and young doesn't mean you look like a kid. Most of it boils down to subtle and sometimes subconscious tells like eye/head to body ratio amongst other facial ques, breast development is apparent even in small titties, certain pheromones or the lack thereof, how they behave and dress, so on.

And even if there are actually women 100% physically indistinguishable from a pre-pubescent girl, the adult brain makes it acceptable. It feels like people tend to forget this fact, a big part of pedophilia is the power disparity, they don't just want kid bodies they want kid brains too. They get pleasure from the abuse itself, which they can't get with an adult woman regardless of if she resembles a child.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Do you think people who masturbate to rape porn want to commit rape? Do you think people who masturbate to incest porn want to commit incest? These are the two most common fetishes in the world- one trip to PornHub can tell you that.

First of all, how common something is has nothing at all to do with the morality of the subject. Murder is common, but you're not going to convince sane people that it's okay on the basis of its occurrence rate.

Regarding rape fantasy, I think it might indicate at least less negative feelings about rape. They may not want to commit rape, but they also may not think it's bad either. To put it another way, if I were a woman and I found out some man had a rape fetish I'd be careful to avoid them, and rightly so.

As for incest, I think it depends on what type it is. The only type which cannot possibly indicate a willingness to commit incest is a variety you cannot personally commit. For example, everybody has a mother, and if a man is into mother/son they're almost certainly harboring incestuous feelings.

However, if he's into lesbian sisters and does not even have sisters, then, while that is degenerate, it can't indicate a personal willingness to engage in said behavior because he's not a female with a sister.

From another angle, it'd be like saying a man is homosexual for finding lesbian porn erotic. It's not indicative of a willingness to participate in homosexual activity on a personal level, so it could be seen similarly in some cases.

While true, tiny adult women exist, and not just in anime (where it feels like in some cases, in ecchi especially, they give them explicit legal ages just to justify drawing loli bodies). So is it wrong to ogle a 20-year-old woman if she has the physique of a 12-year-old?

I'm not sure that's really possible though; if you watch To Catch a Predator you'll see that even the youngest looking women they find have to only be caught a glimpse of before the predator enters the home, otherwise they might catch on. Often it's just their voice from behind a door or positioning themselves in a way which obscures full view, and they run away out of view back into the home (if they're visible at all) once the predator approaches.

I go back and forth on hentai. On the one hand it's just lines on paper no matter what is drawn, but on the other hand I do think intent matters. I just bypass the issue and advocate for the banning of pornography entirely. These discussions only reinforce that feeling, look at all this degenerate shit, the world would be better off without any of it.

 

[snort inquisition]

it's hard to defend after reading the comment sections on sites that host it, tbh

i personally think it's just drawings but holy fuck the people who look it up are all absolute creeps

 

[ioput]

If you're into loli or shota, you're a pedo.

Reminder the lord Mammoth has spoken already on this issue. Niggas really crying about drawings.

 

[Fools Idol]

Put yourself in my shoes for a moment, I'm being presented with a person who is sexually excited by the fictional (for sake of the argument anyway) depictions of children. My first question is why children specifically? You say you aren't podophiles yet you seek out loli/shotacon content over other types of porn. The only conclusion is that is this is a fetish that you have.

But here is the problem, you're asking me to believe that your fetishes are conditional. That isn't how fetishes work, a guy who is into NTR hentai doesn't suddenly find infidelity and real cuckolding porn disgusting.

Moreover, you're asking me to divorce all fiction from the real world and I can't. People cry at Bambi even though it's a cartoon because, fictional or not, the story and the characters resonate with the audience. The emotions the viewers feel are very real even if the content isn't.

This discussion always ends up with everyone going in circles because there isn't a good solution to this. We can't just ban all distasteful (or not) fiction just because someone might act on it (or wank off to it) and I would imagine that the vast majority of loli/shotacon enthusiasts don't act on their perversions and we can't punish a person based on what they think about. If we did I'd be spending the rest of my life in a maximum security prison for attempted murder.

People argue about what flavour of pedo you guys are and whether you'll act on these impulses or not but then we arrive at my final question, why should I trust you that it's strictly fictional?

 

[Chris_Stuckmann]

First of all, how common something is has nothing at all to do with the morality of the subject. Murder is common, but you're not going to convince sane people that it's okay on the basis of its occurrence rate.

Murder's not that common relative to the number of people that glorify/fantasize about murder.

Regarding rape fantasy, I think it might indicate at least less negative feelings about rape. They may not want to commit rape, but they also may not think it's bad either. To put it another way, if I were a woman and I found out some man had a rape fetish I'd be careful to avoid them, and rightly so.

Tbh it would depend on the person/type of porn they were caught with. Rape/incest porn is so mainstream that a lot of it is basically vanilla. There's a difference between "stepbro blackmails stepsis" and something like the hardcore rape subreddits. Fundamentally, I do see your point. People who are aroused by power differentials in porn are probably more likely to be predatory irl than people who aren't. However, I don't think its enough to pass judgement of any kind unless its some really hardcore, nasty porn.

 

[Frenulum Fistula]

Forget all this nonsense. The real question is, do you think it's ethical for Hasbulla to get laid? (He's 19)

 

[Second-Hand Boat Supplies]

it's hard to defend after reading the comment sections on sites that host it, tbh

i personally think it's just drawings but holy fuck the people who look it up are all absolute creeps

This is a really good point. And it gets at my view of it. I draw a really hard line against regulating what goes in within peoples' own homes or within their own skulls. The mechanisms to police against what are essentially tastes, no matter how repugnant, are just unacceptable overreaches of government. Similarly, I don't want to be the guy who looks like he's sticking up for them, but I disagree in strictly literal terms with people who say that "all peadophiles should [play mindcraft with me]." I don't believe anyone deserves to be punished for fucked up brain-wiring until that turns to actually committing those acts. I won't go out of my way to scold people who say that of course, but I would prefer they be more specific about their threats of violence.

However — a very big however — the bar for what is in private is very stringent. The comment sections you mention are perfect examples. Those private actions and thoughts spread quickly through networks and, even worse, they're sucked up as inputs into internet algorithms and will end up affecting the outside social environment. Not even to mention when people try to sell their works and have incentive to get them in front of as many eyes as possible.

I don't know how you would forbid the latter activities but not the first though. The most workable course of action would probably be a blanket ban with law enforcement agencies being directed not to prioritize it unless they see it in a sufficiently public setting.

 

[trailcamwhore]

i personally think it's just drawings but holy fuck the people who look it up are all absolute creeps

Right.

Cartoon loli/etc. stuff isn't child porn, so no we shouldn't "consider" it child porn. Being wrong on purpose is bad for your brain.

But we should be suspicious of people who are fans of it.

 

[Osmosis Jones]

Right.

Cartoon loli/etc. stuff isn't child porn, so no we shouldn't "consider" it child porn. Being wrong on purpose is bad for your brain.

But we should be suspicious of people who are fans of it.

Just because it's fictional child porn doesn't preclude it from being child porn.

Really easy to figure out who on the farms just might fuck a kid by browsing this thread.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Murder's not that common relative to the number of people that glorify/fantasize about murder.

But it's still a pretty common crime. Or we can point to rape or theft instead or lump them all together under crime, the point remains that just because something is common doesn't justify it.

Tbh it would depend on the person/type of porn they were caught with. Rape/incest porn is so mainstream that a lot of it is basically vanilla. There's a difference between "stepbro blackmails stepsis" and something like the hardcore rape subreddits. Fundamentally, I do see your point. People who are aroused by power differentials in porn are probably more likely to be predatory irl than people who aren't. However, I don't think its enough to pass judgement of any kind unless its some really hardcore, nasty porn.

I just know if I were a woman I wouldn't trust a guy into rape porn, and I feel it'd be foolish to argue to the contrary.

Similarly, if I was a parent I'd keep my kids far away from anyone into hentai depicting kids, even if it's "just" lines on paper because it very well may inform their inclinations off of paper. It may not, but I'd also keep my grandparents away from someone into hentai of old people. I honestly don't see how those don't indicate a pedophilia/gerontophilia inclination.

Now, I do acknowledge that artistic designs can vary and it's difficult to draw a clear line in the sand. Young characters can look old, old characters can look young, and many are anatomically distinct enough from actual human beings as to potentially render the argument pointless (or at least lend an element of plausible deniability).

To put it simply, fapping to Bulma is as "normal" as fapping to cartoons can be because canon ages are irrelevant. Anatomy is a much better indicator of a problem, even if it's imperfect.

 

[ZippyZoopa]

If you find kids attractive you are a pedophile, that's it, we can close the thread now.

 

[Mango Cobra]

Regarding rape fantasy, I think it might indicate at least less negative feelings about rape. They may not want to commit rape, but they also may not think it's bad either. To put it another way, if I were a woman and I found out some man had a rape fetish I'd be careful to avoid them, and rightly so.

Just curious, and a little off topic - How do you feel about women with rape fantasies? Not raping someone, but BEING raped?

I personally find it super uncomfortable and I find women who are into it to be... Damaged, in some way. Generally they are S/A survivors trying to "reclaim" it, or something like that, but I guess, theoretically, you could find women into it who never were raped.

As for incest, I think it depends on what type it is. The only type which cannot possibly indicate a willingness to commit incest is a variety you cannot personally commit. For example, everybody has a mother, and if a man is into mother/son they're almost certainly harboring incestuous feelings.
However, if he's into lesbian sisters and does not even have sisters, then, while that is degenerate, it can't indicate a personal willingness to engage in said behavior because he's not a female with a sister.

From another angle, it'd be like saying a man is homosexual for finding lesbian porn erotic. It's not indicative of a willingness to participate in homosexual activity on a personal level, so it could be seen similarly in some cases.

I'm torn on this. I play CK2 / CK3 and I see a lot of people who are into the whole "Lannister twins" shit when trying to discuss the game. Speaking with them, they've expressed the fact that it is taboo is what is a huge turn on, not the idea of banging their sister / mother / whatever. I don't agree that "If you have a sister and you are into incest hentai you are a freak who wants to bang your sister, unless you don't have a sister, then you're just a freak who doesn't want to bang your sister". Either they want to bang their sister - Who may or may not just be a hypothetical sister - or they don't and are just a degenerate weirdo.

I go back and forth on hentai. On the one hand it's just lines on paper no matter what is drawn, but on the other hand I do think intent matters. I just bypass the issue and advocate for the banning of pornography entirely. These discussions only reinforce that feeling, look at all this degenerate shit, the world would be better off without any of it.

Funnily enough, I had a former friend say something with a similar line of logic - He tried claiming that hentai (as a general catch-all for erotic art) was the same thing as pornography & sex work, and if you have no issue with hentai you should have no issue with pornography or prostituion, and essentially said that "Posting a picture of your asshole on onlyfans takes the same level of creative skill and effort as an artist who spends hundreds of hours drawing a picture" - Of course he was pro-legalization of anything pornographic adjacent, while you are pro-outlawing anything pornographic adjacent - Just funny how you both have the similar logic of "Drawings is the same as hardcore porn, so it should be banned / legalized"

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Just curious, and a little off topic - How do you feel about women with rape fantasies? Not raping someone, but BEING raped?

I personally find it super uncomfortable and I find women who are into it to be... Damaged, in some way. Generally they are S/A survivors trying to "reclaim" it, or something like that, but I guess, theoretically, you could find women into it who never were raped.

Most likely they either experienced something traumatic or witnessed something when they were very young which confused their outlook on sex/consent. There's also the possibility that it could be a biological reproductive signal out of whack, similar in concept to an overeating disorder, but that's just a theory a RAAAPE THEORY, thanks for reading.

I'm torn on this. I play CK2 / CK3 and I see a lot of people who are into the whole "Lannister twins" shit when trying to discuss the game. Speaking with them, they've expressed the fact that it is taboo is what is a huge turn on, not the idea of banging their sister / mother / whatever. I don't agree that "If you have a sister and you are into incest hentai you are a freak who wants to bang your sister, unless you don't have a sister, then you're just a freak who doesn't want to bang your sister". Either they want to bang their sister - Who may or may not just be a hypothetical sister - or they don't and are just a degenerate weirdo.

So you're saying the fact that it's a taboo in and of itself is at least a contributing factor to why their fetish is a turn on? Sure, but there must be something specific to their fetish of choice, otherwise you could just swap in any sexual taboo and they'd find it equally erotic, which probably isn't the case.

I don't know about that hypothetical sister stuff, how can you want to bang a non-existent family member? It seems too abstract. You'd probably need to poll that demographic to understand what their reasoning and family structure is like, we can only speculate so far. It at least doesn't seem as clear cut as "he likes other men so he's a fag".

Funnily enough, I had a former friend say something with a similar line of logic - He tried claiming that hentai (as a general catch-all for erotic art) was the same thing as pornography & sex work, and if you have no issue with hentai you should have no issue with pornography or prostituion, and essentially said that "Posting a picture of your asshole on onlyfans takes the same level of creative skill and effort as an artist who spends hundreds of hours drawing a picture" - Of course he was pro-legalization of anything pornographic adjacent, while you are pro-outlawing anything pornographic adjacent - Just funny how you both have the similar logic of "Drawings is the same as hardcore porn, so it should be banned / legalized"

That's kind of interesting. Hentai is a type of pornography, but I don't see how it could possibly be lumped in with prostitution. I think it's also pretty self-evident that a selfie of your asshole doesn't merit the same artistic value and craftsmanship as actual artistry. I can see drawings being categorized with hardcore porn though, especially if they're particularly realistic and depicting something, well, hardcore.

 

[Mango Cobra]

Most likely they either experienced something traumatic or witnessed something when they were very young which confused their outlook on sex/consent. There's also the possibility that it could be a biological reproductive signal out of whack, similar in concept to an overeating disorder, but that's just a theory a RAAAPE THEORY, thanks for reading.

I agree on both counts. Sorry for the totally off-topic question, I was just curious as to your thoughts on it.

So you're saying the fact that it's a taboo in and of itself is at least a contributing factor to why their fetish is a turn on? Sure, but there must be something specific to their fetish of choice, otherwise you could just swap in any sexual taboo and they'd find it equally erotic, which probably isn't the case.

I think its just the specific taboo that they latch onto. A bit of a power level here, but my ex was super into exhibitionism smut, and would read those kinds of erotic stories all the time, but was also not interested in that kind of stuff IRL.

I don't know about that hypothetical sister stuff, how can you want to bang a non-existent family member? It seems too abstract. You'd probably need to poll that demographic to understand what their reasoning and family structure is like, we can only speculate so far. It at least doesn't seem as clear cut as "he likes other men so he's a fag".

Yeah, exactly. I think, again, its that they find the concept, the IDEA of it to be what gets them going.

That's kind of interesting. Hentai is a type of pornography, but I don't see how it could possibly be lumped in with prostitution. I think it's also pretty self-evident that a selfie of your asshole doesn't merit the same artistic value and craftsmanship as actual artistry. I can see drawings being categorized with hardcore porn though, especially if they're particularly realistic and depicting something, well, hardcore.

Yeah it was just an interesting little thing that I wanted to share, I'm not saying your argument is bad like his was - just that you kind of had similar a logic process but arrived at different conclusions. I guess he was shocked that I can have friends who are artists who draw "hentai" (again, catch-all for erotic art) and also refuse to acknowledge that 'Sex work is real work' or that artists are essentially sex workers. That isn't just a one-off thing, though - A LOT of OnlyFans THOTs have tried saying that "I put as much effort into a lazy selfie of my tits as an artist who spends weeks working on super high detail art" in an attempt to label themselves as 'artists' as opposed to just camwhores. Also, fun fact - He's a former friend because he drunkenly admitted to me that he molested a kid, and I won't be friends with Chomos.


Anyhow. Back on topic - I don't think that Lolicon / Shotacon should be considered child pornography, provided it isn't just traced-over child porn - That "Visual Novel" from that german language image board was child porn because it was just traced CP. However, it is BORDERLINE pedophilia and if you are remotely close to that border I want nothing to do with you.

 

[Dojima's Dragon]

Isnt one of the reasons people whack off to shota is because they want to be that lucky 16 year old who gets banged by the hot school teacher i mean one has to look at the comment sections of videos of teachers being caught with the 16 year old being full of comments about how lucky he is

 

[Big Scumfuck]

We shouldn't solely use morals to regulate society.
Actual harm is what matters.
We need to let the men with mommy issues and girls with daddy issues jerk off as long as the content wasn't made in a harmful way.
Fiction isn't reality unless you're a schizo after all

 

[Wormy]

I just bypass the issue and advocate for the banning of pornography entirely.

How do you make it effective though? How do you police people's sketchbooks for example? My wife joked that if porn was made illegal, she'd make a mint of greasy money just by selling dirty sketches.

 

[Big Scumfuck]

How do you make it effective though? How do you police people's sketchbooks for example? My wife joked that if porn was made illegal, she'd make a mint of greasy money just by selling dirty sketches.

Exactly, full prohibition of anything has never worked and always leads to a black market.