Programming thread

[Kosher Dill]

People hate Microsoft but C# (.NET Core) is everything good about java with 5% of the autistic boilerplate code.

In fairness, C# was able to be good because Java already made every mistake in the book. They didn't just learn those lessons out of nowhere.

 

[Basil Julep]

Then I picked up C#. People hate Microsoft but C# (.NET Core) is everything good about java with 5% of the autistic boilerplate code. Who gives a shit about sorts, Microsoft has already determined the optimal method of sort given your specific scenario and testing their algorithm will prove them right.
...
I was much more hesitant of Microsoft before they gave up on opposing Linux. Now they realize they can use Linux at scale in the cloud and are one of the largest contributors to the linux kernel. Their security fixes now benefit us all.

I hate Microsoft so-fucking-much. And God do I hate Bill Gates.

I have several friends who are C# fags and they love it. I kind-of regret not getting more involved with their C# projects now.

 

[Netizennameless]

In fairness, C# was able to be good because Java already made every mistake in the book. They didn't just learn those lessons out of nowhere.

Oh I definitely agree. Java paved the way for C# but I damn sure resent having to use java right now. I'm so frustrated by how many things in java are handled "under the hood." Maybe I'm just a foreigner to the language.

 

[Netizennameless]

I hate Microsoft so-fucking-much. And God do I hate Bill Gates.

I have several friends who are C# fags and they love it. I kind-of regret not getting more involved with their C# projects now.

C# is entirely successful because of the developer community and Microsoft is smart enough to both realize this and leave it the fuck alone. The #1 benefit of C# is that any library you can concieve of is already in the world and free to download.
Even a shitty developer can rig together a working solution with a mishmash of pre-existing packages. Also, why try to reinvent the wheel when some inspired sperg wrote it better?

I will say though, when i jack bits of code from the internet i cite my sources in the comments.

 

[eternal dog mongler]

In fairness, C# was able to be good because Java already made every mistake in the book. They didn't just learn those lessons out of nowhere.

Java looked at C++'s mistakes and then decided they'd avoid them, then C# looked at Java's mistakes and decided they'd avoid them.

And then after that, uh...there's Rust and Go. So yeah C# is the winner overall.

Kotlin's cool though. Shame it never really took off.

 

[Fcret]

Kotlin's cool though. Shame it never really took off.

Kotlin's actually pretty big these days. Not just in Android but in general development. Seen a ton of jobs lately where they're looking for people to write stuff in Kotlin (and Scala) specifically because it can interface with their old Java stuff cleanly.

On the subject of Java generally - I don't think it's all that bad. It can be verbose at times but one of the advantages is that you rarely run into code you can't understand. Everything is laid out in almost excruciating detail. And in some ways that's nice - it's a very idiot-proof language that is nonetheless very powerful and performant.

And as far as I'm concerned, the JVM is God-tier. The fact that it reaches near native performance is very impressive.

I have several friends who are C# fags and they love it. I kind-of regret not getting more involved with their C# projects now.

C# is excellent and I'm glad to see it's getting more widespread adoption now that Microsoft started open-sourcing their reference implementations. The CLR is not nearly as robust as the JVM but it's still really good.

If there's one modern language I absolutely fucking hate, it's Javascript. Not the syntax or features, mind you, but the execution model. The single event loop, asynchronous, non-blocking etc bullshit is fantastic for graphical web applications but absolute ass for everything else. The fact that it seems to be used for everything except what it was originally designed for is a tragedy.

There's so much shit that should be simple and elegant that gets turned into a spaghetti of promise chains and nested callbacks when you do it in Javascript because the language isn't designed to do what these webcucks are trying to make it do.

 

[Netizennameless]

Kotlin's actually pretty big these days. Not just in Android but in general development. Seen a ton of jobs lately where they're looking for people to write stuff in Kotlin (and Scala) specifically because it can interface with their old Java stuff cleanly.

On the subject of Java generally - I don't think it's all that bad. It can be verbose at times but one of the advantages is that you rarely run into code you can't understand. Everything is laid out in almost excruciating detail. And in some ways that's nice - it's a very idiot-proof language that is nonetheless very powerful and performant.

And as far as I'm concerned, the JVM is God-tier. The fact that it reaches near native performance is very impressive.


C# is excellent and I'm glad to see it's getting more widespread adoption now that Microsoft started open-sourcing their reference implementations. The CLR is not nearly as robust as the JVM but it's still really good.

If there's one modern language I absolutely fucking hate, it's Javascript. Not the syntax or features, mind you, but the execution model. The single event loop, asynchronous, non-blocking etc bullshit is fantastic for graphical web applications but absolute ass for everything else. The fact that it seems to be used for everything except what it was originally designed for is a tragedy.

There's so much shit that should be simple and elegant that gets turned into a spaghetti of promise chains and nested callbacks when you do it in Javascript because the language isn't designed to do what these webcucks are trying to make it do.

I take the opposite approach. Javascript is amazing because it has been abused so hard that it no longer resembles its original intent.

I won't speak for others, but i personally respect the fact that Javascript is bold enough to attempt to interpret invalid code. Also I fucking despise Facebook but React was a valid contribution to humanity.

 

[Catler]

People like to shit on Java, but personally I like it. Good libraries, better than average long term stability across versions, and I find it reasonably nice to use, at least when using Intellij.

I've never regretted writing a program in Java, I can't say the same about a lot of other languages.

 

[eternal dog mongler]

Kotlin's actually pretty big these days. Not just in Android but in general development. Seen a ton of jobs lately where they're looking for people to write stuff in Kotlin (and Scala) specifically because it can interface with their old Java stuff cleanly.

Really? Damn, I thought it was mostly limited to Android. That's good.

Of course I'm just a hobbyist so I have no idea what the job market looks like.

 

[306h4Ge5eJUJ]

A lot of issues people blame on Java are actually the fault of bad code (Java is NOT slow) or libraries (including the standard library so I guess it's still partially Java's fault). Nobody forces you to write five-layer abstract class hierarchies that ultimately only have one implementation, but this faggotry is so deeply embedded into Java culture that you can't get around it in practice.

Fuck java in the ass with the largest dick in history.

I initially learned c++ and java in both high school and college and thought it was fine.

Then I picked up C#. People hate Microsoft but C# (.NET Core) is everything good about java with 5% of the autistic boilerplate code. Who gives a shit about sorts, Microsoft has already determined the optimal method of sort given your specific scenario and testing their algorithm will prove them right.

To add to this, my rage is mostly the result of having to learn java again on the fly after years of disuse. The project architecture is shitty by any language standard, so that doesn't help.

I was much more hesitant of Microsoft before they gave up on opposing Linux. Now they realize they can use Linux at scale in the cloud and are one of the largest contributors to the linux kernel. Their security fixes now benefit us all.

C# is still chock-full of boilerplate, you likely just don't realize it's boilerplate the same way you didn't notice Java's before. You mention dependency injection further down, but the entire concept of dependency injection is language-induced boilerplate. You won't find DI frameworks for Lisp or Python, because DI is entirely unnecessary in them.

 

[Fcret]

C# is still chock-full of boilerplate, you likely just don't realize it's boilerplate the same way you didn't notice Java's before. You mention dependency injection further down, but the entire concept of dependency injection is language-induced boilerplate. You won't find DI frameworks for Lisp or Python, because DI is entirely unnecessary in them.

I wouldn't say DI is entirely unnecessary in them, just that it's so straightforward that you don't need some kind of framework or thousands of lines of scaffold code to do it. It's just the sort of thing you knock out without having to think about it much.

Speaking of Lisp, CLOS (with the Metaobject Protocol) is the comfiest OOP environment I've ever worked in that wasn't Smalltalk. It's a shame that so many other OOP languages get it so wrong.

 

[AmpleApricots]

I liked C# almost immediately when it came around, even though people were shitting on it hardcore. What I'll always repeat in this conversation is how people were adamant that C# cannot and will *never* be used for game development. I mostly left it behind because it was an utterly lost cause on Linux in the early years. (no idea how it is now, my guess is like everything else Linux, it got a lot better)

There's no language that's elegant in every situation though, they all have their ugly corners. Anyone who claims otherwise hasn't tried writing anything serious in the specified language. That's why comparisons beyond a certain point are so asinine. They all suck and are all great and you can probably do everything with all of them. But boy, do programmers love to compare them.

 

[Flabba Wabba Jabba]

I hate Microsoft so-fucking-much. And God do I hate Bill Gates.

I have several friends who are C# fags and they love it. I kind-of regret not getting more involved with their C# projects now.

It's funny how so many people are like that (me included). Absolutely fucking despise practices that Microsoft engage in and their entire philosophy/mindset towards software and consumer electroncics.

But on the other hand, C# is just so nice in order to build really good applications that have a lot of redundancies/securities built in. I can create an ASP.NET Core app with a React frontend and deploy it
to a Docker instance and then upload that to AWS in like 8 minutes, purely because of the systems that .NET have in place.

And then after that, uh...there's Rust and Go. So yeah C# is the winner overall.

I think each programming language has its use case. If you want to do embedded systems or time-performant operations, Rust/Go are your go-to for the modern world.

Otherwise, if you're not writing a tiny script in Python/PSH/Bash, then C# should be your go-to. This is especially if you want to make money as a developer.

 

[cornycat]

Are certificates worth it if you aren't going to college yet? I went to a job fair recently and applied to a job for web development, but the employer said I didn't need a GED, and that a certificate was well enough. He also told me that start would be $13, however I could get promotions. I was wondering if I should just get a few certificates with some languages, or if I should go to college and major for it.

 

[Netizennameless]

Are certificates worth it if you aren't going to college yet? I went to a job fair recently and applied to a job for web development, but the employer said I didn't need a GED, and that a certificate was well enough. He also told me that start would be $13, however I could get promotions. I was wondering if I should just get a few certificates with some languages, or if I should go to college and major for it.

You are going to need to be mostly self-taught to make it professionally. What both schools and bootcamps do is point you in the direction of what you need to learn. Bootcamps are much faster and cheaper, college depends entirely on where you go, takes longer but sometimes carries a benefit of the doubt that makes getting a job easier.

More than anything, what sets you apart in an interview is your ability to solve problems on your own and to learn on your own. Create your own side projects so that hiring managers can get a look at your code.

 

[cornycat]

You are going to need to be mostly self-taught to make it professionally. What both schools and bootcamps do is point you in the direction of what you need to learn. Bootcamps are much faster and cheaper, college depends entirely on where you go, takes longer but sometimes carries a benefit of the doubt that makes getting a job easier.

More than anything, what sets you apart in an interview is your ability to solve problems on your own and to learn on your own. Create your own side projects so that hiring managers can get a look at your code.

Yeah, I am self learned, and I practice OSINT tools and making some projects for a game I plan on developing, as well as my own website on the side. Did you go to boot camp? If so, at what age? I wanted to go to a weekly meet up, but I'm not sure if I can due to the pandemic and I live in a liberal state.

 

[Netizennameless]

Yeah, I am self learned, and I practice OSINT tools and making some projects for a game I plan on developing, as well as my own website on the side. Did you go to boot camp? If so, at what age? I wanted to go to a weekly meet up, but I'm not sure if I can due to the pandemic and I live in a liberal state.

I went to a university but didn't feel like I learned anything there. Computer Science is really too academic at some point and doesn't approach things from a business practical perspective. Maybe it was just because I went to a research university and the professors cared more about how prestigious their research was than teaching undergraduate classes.

On that note, community colleges usually give you a better education than a 4 year school, the professors there do no research and teach because they are passionate about the subject. And they don't have to deal with the wild ride public high schools can be.

Boot camps I have never been to, but I have interviewed and recommended we hire a few people who went to bootcamps and nothing else. It all depends on their individual skills and the level of experience we are looking for in the role.

I will say bootcamps can be nice because they are career-focused and don't require a bunch of useless electives to charge credit hours for. Because of their popularity there are a lot of scams. Treat it like looking for a martial arts gym and do your research. Nobody wants to waste time and money at a mcdojo.

Your work experience is 99% of what hiring managers care about. College becomes more relevant if you have nothing, but getting the first job is the hardest. A little secret is to be open to contract development work. A company is more likely to take a risk if it's easy for them to back out of making a mistake. A lot of companies do contract to hire as a test pilot, so it gets you experience. Plus it pays more direct cash and is usually paid hourly. That helps when you're young and can grind for the extra cash.

 

[Flabba Wabba Jabba]

Are certificates worth it if you aren't going to college yet? I went to a job fair recently and applied to a job for web development, but the employer said I didn't need a GED, and that a certificate was well enough. He also told me that start would be $13, however I could get promotions. I was wondering if I should just get a few certificates with some languages, or if I should go to college and major for it.

Here's my take (because it's very similar to what I did).

1. Work at your $13/hr job, and outside of work, start a project for an hour or two a day.
2. Complete one project completely (deploy it to AWS or something cloud-based)
3. Continue building projects for 6-12 months
4. Now apply at a higher paying job, stating that you are employed but also have experience in your project areas

Guaranteed you'll get a way higher paying job. I don't have a college degree and have a 6 figure developer salary with no certs, purely by just showing prowess in projects and my old job.

 

[Polarity]

Here's my take (because it's very similar to what I did).

1. Work at your $13/hr job, and outside of work, start a project for an hour or two a day.
2. Complete one project completely (deploy it to AWS or something cloud-based)
3. Continue building projects for 6-12 months
4. Now apply at a higher paying job, stating that you are employed but also have experience in your project areas

Guaranteed you'll get a way higher paying job. I don't have a college degree and have a 6 figure developer salary with no certs, purely by just showing prowess in projects and my old job.

This is great advice. If you can actually get someone to take you on, even at 13$ an hour, as a junior web dev with no experience or relevant background, worth doing. Just make sure the company looks real and isn't some sort of sex cult or MLM. A year in, a project under your belt, some sort of small GitHub portfolio, showing up on time, and an IQ above 95 and you'll be qualified enough to be making 50-80K+ at a better shop. Heck, look into a few community college courses on light programming or web dev as well -- just having those on your resume will take you pretty far depending on what you want to do.

Plenty of small companies need people with light experience but can't pay 200K or whatever fresh Stanford grads are demanding these days.

 

[Netizennameless]

Here's my take (because it's very similar to what I did).

1. Work at your $13/hr job, and outside of work, start a project for an hour or two a day.

Definitely agree with this. Even more valuable than the paycheck is the work experience directly related to your field. You'll be above all the competion who worked retail or fast food, and even further above those with no work experience at all.

2. Complete one project completely (deploy it to AWS or something cloud-based)
3. Continue building projects for 6-12 months

The troubleshooting skills you'll gain from this are priceless. This is great advice.

4. Now apply at a higher paying job, stating that you are employed but also have experience in your project areas

The software development industry is very heavily remote these days. Maybe not at the megacorps anymore, but the majority of jobs out there are small and medium businesses. Full remote work with a decent salary means you can leave the super expensive housing markets and buy a house or land way earlier, especially if you never burden yourself with student loans. Plus, it is easy to explain no college degree on your resume when you skipped straight to working in the field.

Guaranteed you'll get a way higher paying job. I don't have a college degree and have a 6 figure developer salary with no certs, purely by just showing prowess in projects and my old job.

The shortage for good developers is enormous. This is absolutely achievable with no degree by anyone who can actually write code and have it work and be readable by others.