US Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen. - A surge in repossessed autos reflects broader economic problems. The question: How might a bursting of an auto bubble affect the broader U.S. economy?


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Ford CFO John Lawler said in June that the company had started to see delinquencies increase. Here, a cars at a

Ford factory are prepared for distribution.


The jobs report and minutes from the Federal Reserve’s June meeting were the economic highlights of the week, but they are, respectively, a lagging indicator and old news. This column instead digs into the auto market, where there is an underappreciated ticking time bomb.

Lucky Lopez is a car dealer who has been in the business for about 20 years. In recent meetings with bankers, where he bids on repossessed vehicles before they go to auction, he has noticed some common characteristics of the defaulted loans. Most of the loans on recently repossessed cars originated during 2020 and 2021, whereas origination dates are normally scattered because people fall on hard times at different times; loan-to-value ratios, or the amount financed relative to the value of the vehicle, are around 140%, versus a more normal 80%; and many of the loans were extended to buyers who had temporary pops in income during the pandemic. Those monthly incomes fell—sometimes by half—as pandemic stimulus programs stopped, and now they look even worse on an inflation-adjusted basis and as the prices of basics in particular are climbing.

Sticker Shock

Used-car prices are more than $10,000 above typically expected levels, or what one observer says is a bubble that 'is beginning to show signs of bursting soon.'

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Part of the problem is that some consumers’ incomes were temporarily high as the pandemic brought about debt forbearance, pandemic stimulus checks, enhanced unemployment benefits, and, in some cases, forgiven loans from the Paycheck Protection Program. Lopez says he recently bought a Bentley, McLaren and two Aston Martins—all purchased by buyers using PPP money as down payments, and all repossessed after few or no monthly payments.Another recent acquisition: a Silverado repossessed from a borrower with a solid 700 credit score who made two payments.

Banks’ auto lending standards, meanwhile, went out the window, and then lenders jumped on the bandwagon of overpaying for cars, Lopez says. “Everybody thought the free gravy train would never end,” Lopez says.

Now, he says he has never seen so many people making $2,500 a month owing $1,000 a month in car payments. That’s about double the maximum portion of income many financial advisors recommend allocating toward a car payment. “The idea that the economy is strong? Anyone who is actually doing business sees things are not strong,” says Lopez. “We had a housing bubble in 2008, and now we have an auto bubble.”

Consider data from car-shopping app CoPilot, which monitors daily online inventory across dealers nationwide to track what they say is the difference between a car’s listed price and what it would be worth if not for extraordinary pandemic dynamics. In June, used-car prices were up 43%, or $10,046 above projected “normal” levels, the company says.

As Danielle DiMartino Booth, CEO of Quill Intelligence puts it, companies in the business of repossessing autos are among the first to know when economic trouble is brewing. And now those companies are buying car lots to handle the flood of repossessed, used cars coming to the market because what they are seeing is a longer and harder recession, she says. Lopez says banks are in turn leasing more land to handle an expected car-repossession surge.

Some auto executives have hinted of turbulence. Earlier this year, Vickie Judy, CFO of America’s Car-Mart CRMT –2.79% (ticker: CRMT), discussed rising car repossession rates on an earnings call. In June, Ford F –0.26% (F) CFO John Lawler said the company had started to see delinquencies increase.

Lopez says it is hard to track vehicle repossession rates because banks are loath to talk about them. But based on what he says he has seen from banks, subprime repos have nearly doubled since 2020, to around 11% on average. The bigger red flag is in prime repos, where borrowers have higher credit scores. Lopez says usually about 2% of prime loans wind up repossessed. Now, that rate is at about 4%. Some of that can be explained by pandemic support temporarily making some consumers look like better borrowers. But it probably doesn’t fully explain the jump in prime defaults, thus suggesting a wider swath of consumers are struggling despite narratives around large cash cushions and a strong job market buffering households as inflation bites, interest rates rise, and financial markets melt.

Pamela Foohey, law professor at Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University, warned in 2021 of an auto-loan crisis. She wrote then that heading into the pandemic, auto loans outstanding were at record levels and auto-loan delinquencies were hitting new highs almost every quarter. The bubble was about to burst, it seemed, but government pandemic responses meant the bottom didn’t fall out of the auto-loan market. The measures were temporary, she warned then, and the bubble has since only grown.

Barron’s checked in with Foohey this past week. “The bubble is beginning to show signs of bursting soon,” she says, pointing to the overall spike in car prices that has led to larger loans and to rising repossession rates.

What is bubbling in the auto market reflects broader economic problems. The question: How might a bursting of an auto bubble affect the broader U.S. economy? Data published in May by the New York Fed shows Americans’ auto debt rose $87 billion for the year ended in March, to $1.47 trillion. That represents about a 10th of total consumer debt, which rose 8.2% over the same period.

One place the trouble is starting to show up, Lopez says, is on banks’ balance sheets. He says banks that were giving auto loans with LTVs of around 140 are now getting around 70 at auction—meaning they are losing substantial money. Foohey says the increase in auto loans and the increase in delinquencies and defaults track an increase in defaults on personal loans and credit cards.

There is a silver lining in that the weaker economy the auto trouble both reflects and portends should cool inflation. But it might not be that simple, at least not right away. “A lot of the banks—they’re smart. They control the market, like diamonds,” Lopez says. “As repos pour in, they only release them so often,” he says, meaning auto prices will probably remain stubborn even as economic growth wanes and more repos mean more used-car inventory.

That will also remain the case for inflation broadly, with stagflation the only alternative to a deeper-than-expected recession.




Time to start buying auction cars. People will finally remember that the game has been rigged from the start.

Will said it best in "Margin Call", listen carefully:


Fractional reserve banking and cronyism is empowered by the average day person who lives beyond their means in apathy.
 
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I wonder if we could also said "Welfare BMW/Lexus/Mercedes/Audi" as well? :thinking: Imagine one day you see a beat-up Mercedes or BMW in a trailer park, lol. :story:

Wouldn't Welfare Teslas be a thing, given how Stans are so obsessed with them, to the point that they consider Elon Musk to be literally God?
 
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well I just bought a 2005 beater, dunno if I should have waited or not
Imagine one day you see a beat-up Mercedes or BMW in a trailer park, lol. :story:
that's what happens inEurope- poorfag ghettos are full of 15 year old luxury brand cars, because you can buy a 2002 S-class Mercedes for 5k EUR, but then the moment something breaks, the repair is another 5k
 
According to that article lenders/banks/finance jews "recommend" that a person earning $2500 per month (lol poor) max out at a car payment of $500 per month. Shit they might as well just tell people they hate them and want them to suffer. Thanks for the advice!

$500 a month, 6 grand per year. On a $15 per hour income (it's not clear if the $2500 is net or gross, but even if it's net that's still only about $20/hr. or barely $40k per year). Nobody in my social group ever had a payment like that. My parents never had a payment above $200 per month for a vehicle. That's a whole shitload of money for a fucking car, a depreciating asset (don't worry they'll depreciate again soon) that requires insurance, fuel, and regular maintenance, along with occasional major repairs at $100-200 per labor hour plus parts (which most people pay 30-50% markup on).
 
It all depends on class status and resale value. You definitely do see welfare BMWs but they're always clapped out 4 bangers and never M class. The resale value on some used beemers is absolutely trash, under $6k. Same with Cadillacs, especially escalades. 3rd hand used Escalades aren't trendy anymore and their resale value sucks.

Real rich people Mercedes and BMWs tend to have fewer owners overall and it seems to prop up the resale price. I haven't seen anyone rich drive an Escalade in over 10 years.
 
I work in a car dealership as a car salesman, and let me tell you something. Some of the people that go out there and buy cars are absolutely braindead. These aren't 18 year olds who haven't bought a car before these are 30 yr old+ adults. Here's some encounters I've had in the past 20 days alone.

#1: Two seniors came in on social security as their only income looking at a 50.000+ Mercedes GLE 50 that had low miles....with a $0 down payment at $350 a month. Now I'm no mathematician but even the longest term loans possible through very few select banks (96 months) wouldn't even cut it. When told their expectations are too high, and we can get something within their budget on the lot they told me "we don't want that! we want something that catches our eye and that's the only thing!" age brings wisdom my ass. Cherry on top they thought a 200k+ mile decade old car with a check engine light would suffice as a down payment. We have a saying called champagne taste with a beer budget.

#2: A 25 year old came in trying to see if he could get approved for anything. Ok that's fine lets check it out! Annnnnnnnnd he has a 400 credit score, switches jobs every 2 months and has lived in his current residence for only two weeks. Maybe he never financed a car before? Even then he should've known better than that.

#3: Guy came in looking at a $60,000 limited RAM (why do people buy this?) with a low as fuck credit score. He was willing to pay $1000 a month but got mad at us when no banks would approve him without a 30,000+ down payment and we don't offer financing through the dealership.

#4: Lady came in with a trade in that wasn't even there. Why? Well it didn't run. The motor was cracked, the battery was dead, and she still owed thousands on it. Really bad negative equity. I felt really bad for her since she built up her credit from the absolute dumps and her only options are to either A: Bite the bullet and pay thousands to get it fixed while still making a car payment while its not running, or B: Finance a car through a different bank while stopping payments on the broken down one until the repo happens. Yes you can do that, and yes your credit score will suffer pretty badly.

With colorful characters like this it doesn't surprise me that people are paying for cars they can't afford. I kinda care if you're able to buy a car and keep it only because that will give me repeat business down the road. However at the end of the day I really don't give a fuck if it gets repossessed or not as long as you keep it for more than 4 months since I will get paid either way. I didn't force you to sign the paper, and I don't completely know your financial situation besides what you told me on the credit application. Don't be stupid. If it does get repoed before that then they will just take it right back out of a check I get later.

I get it, you guys don't buy cars everyday like I try to sell them so I understand people don't know everything they need to. However for the love of all that is holy please do some fucking research, and don't waste my time because you're surprised car prices are so high and it's not 2010 anymore. No your $0 down and $300 a month payments aren't cutting it unless you pick a very specific price, vehicle, have a good bank and most importantly have a good credit report. I can't stress this enough. IF YOU ARE FINANCING DO YOUR RESEARCH. PreApprovals from your bank are the safest way to do this, even if it does limit you if your credit history isn't great.

I am slightly fearful for my job security at the moment since the chip shortage is fucking brutal. New cars are so hot that they get sold before their tires touch the ground off of a truck because someone already put a holding deposit on it. Combine that with the fact a bunch of retards are buying overpriced used cars or expensive new cars with high as fuck payments and we might see a 2008 crisis happen in the car industry. 1 in 8 car buyers recently have a payment of over $1000+! Oh and inflation lol

Used is pretty much on par with new right now.

Case in point, dealership wanted to sell me a 2018 pickup with 40k miles for 38k, walked out with a 2021 with 0 miles for 40k. The whole "chip shortage" caused used car prices to rocket...in that same sense the dealerships are offering more on used. This was a year ago so this may have changed, but everything I hear from people shopping says the same thing.
Correct. And it's real. Car manufacturers want to make money. They aren't just artificially holding these vehicles or some other retarded conspiracies I've heard before. A lot of car buyers are consoomers. Buy product then get excited for next years product even though the only thing they changed was they added a couple cool bells and whistles and a heated side mirror. Car lots used to have 50+ new cars on the lot, now a lot of us are lucky if we have 4-5. Used prices are almost if sometimes not more than new cars in certain situations. You can't have consoomers consume product if said product doesn't exist.
 
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@ZeCommissar
People are goddamned retarded. I worked with a guy from a labor agency once. He had literally $45 left over at the end of each month. Decides to get a cell phone. Cheapest plan is $35, flip phone, no data, lots of voice and some text. The sales guy sells him on a $80/month plan, they told him it was only two dollars a day! It's so cheap!

Surprise surprise, he missed the first payment and every payment after that too.
 
It all depends on class status and resale value. You definitely do see welfare BMWs but they're always clapped out 4 bangers and never M class. The resale value on some used beemers is absolutely trash, under $6k. Same with Cadillacs, especially escalades. 3rd hand used Escalades aren't trendy anymore and their resale value sucks.

Real rich people Mercedes and BMWs tend to have fewer owners overall and it seems to prop up the resale price. I haven't seen anyone rich drive an Escalade in over 10 years.
I heard once some stories or rumors then some rich people in Brazil once buyed less fancy cars as a way to look low profile to not attract too much attention.
 
I heard once some stories or rumors then some rich people in Brazil once buyed less fancy cars as a way to look low profile to not attract too much attention.
Read about a town where the well to do, had stigma about being flashy, so volvo was the standard. So then the blacks saw the white driving volvos and said "hey why not"
 
Used car prices have started to drop and will continue to drop - providing some relief. But not crash to bargain levels...or perhaps even fair levels.

Money is drying up - which is exactly what the Fed wants to happen, so seeing some repo rates rise is par the course.

The real issue with inflation eating away buying power and interest rate rises is that it hardly effects the wealthy's spending habits but it does the most important sector - middle class and lower class where the bulk of profits for corporations are made.

I'd expect in general we will see many retailers and businesses see in general a unique situation whereby their sales by numerical value will be flat or close enough, but the important equation - profits - will be reduced significantly due to the rising cost of business. Wages, raw materials etc. mean that by sales figures they are technically growing or flat, but the value of those sales to the businesses are worth much less.

As an example in my business I have had to raise prices which undoubtedly is turning some customers away, but it is better to not produce with the overheads for a "too-slim" margin. Some retailers will take this approach too and may opt to simply shutter or reduce workforce because they know the higher prices will remove the required number of sales from the equation to make it worthwhile. if the margin gets too slim, the the capital is best handed over to a fund manager rather than risk the capital owning and operating a business.

We have a very healthy employment market at the moment but the elephant in the room is that the primary consumer base making these jobs pay anything has almost no ability to absorb needed price hikes in consumer goods and the straw is about to break given that banks and finance is tightening and not becoming loose to allow the much needed credit to flow to augment their consumer base debt / credit.

In reality we are just running through another cycle of economics but it has been so long since the previous one that for many it will be a new experience. The Fed is going to run the economy in to reverse, shrink it a bit, slow the consumer market down, take some bumps out of the supply lines "waves", reduce the housing market significantly and cause some collapses in sectors in order to pull inflation down.

And it's goal is to have this effect on the entire global economy. To put it into perspective, I see the economy as a vehicle and they have to slam on the breaks but are making a best guess as to the car's tires and the road surface. I fear there is black ice under the wheels and it is going to not go down too well. But they are fucked because the curve is up ahead and the breaks have to go on. They have to.

Flip a coin or get ready of the airbag deployment.
 
Now do equipment. At some point fuel prices and all that 0% manufacturer financing has to catch up. I don't even care if the CTL I bought 6 months ago goes down in value, I'd like to be able to buy a used 5 ton mini for less than $70,000.
 
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You just don’t know how to negotiate. You pretend that you’re interested in financing, may even apply to it, get the dealer to commit that the price of the car is X, and then say “Oh, by the way, I’m paying cash”. They don’t want to give up their commission when the only thing left was your signature. If they foolishly raise the price, just walk out.

In some states this is illegal from what i hear. Make sure to record them saying they are gonna charge you more for cash.

I got my car at 2.1% interest with cash last year, I'm just speaking to what I've read time and again on the several vehicle specific forums I'm on, especially Jeep and Ford.
 
So when will used car prices fall? I need
I have some good news and bad news. The good news is that they will EVENTUALLY fall. The bad news is it will take a pretty long time....probably.

It honestly depends. If this bubble bursts and a shit ton of people get a repo then I can see that causing car prices to fall a bit, however banks will make it even harder to get a loan if you plan on financing like they do with housing now. At the end of the day used car prices will truly fall when the new car inventory stabilizes. However don't hold your breath because that could take around 2-3 years if not more. The demand for new cars is so fucking high right now that the plants in operation can't keep up, nevermind the fact computer chips are used for far more than just cars anyway. These are large factories I'm talking about and it takes a few years for the buildings to get built, for the machines to come in, and for the workers to get in there. A good bit of analysts say around 2024 is when you can expect things to start stabilizing to around pre-covid levels....at best. Don't be the last dumbass I talked to and think "oh it'll be fine in 6 more months" NO IT WILL NOT. Another thing to worry about is inflation which won't stabilize in 3-4 years.

If you absolutely NEED a car because you can't get to work, and whatever your driving now is on its last legs, or you don't have one I suggest you just forgo big dealerships and take your butt to facebook marketplace, or some cheap ass cash car lot that sells you something that will break down within the year. Use that time to save up for a better car. Or see if carpooling with a reliable coworker that lives nearby is an option.

If you have cash to spare then I have a few protips on getting a decent used car in todays market for everyone.

1: Save up some cash. Remember when I said don't go in financing with $0 down? Unless you have stellar credit, decent price, and do really long terms then you will get raped in the monthly payments even at low interest. $5000 is a very good starting position. If you really want something that doesn't have a ton of miles then $10,000 down can get you a really good used car with low mileage in financing. If miles aren't too important then buy a cheap cash car around $5-10000 with a reliable history like a corolla. Don't buy a fucking high mileage chevy.

The same holds true if you want to pay in cash. Don't show up to a namebrand dealership while broke. Its not a good idea. Yes I know $5000-10000 is a good amount of money to most people myself included, but it's doable with discipline, budgeting, and time. If you don't have time and little cash then one option you have is the next one.

2: Do what I said above and buy some POS that will break down within a year and use that time to save up money. Also you'll hate the car because chances are even if the motor and transmission are fine then it will have problems like no AC, broken door handles, windows etc. This might catch you in a trap where you haven't saved enough to buy yet another POS and it costs too much to fix. USE THIS OPTION AS A LAST RESORT WITH CAUTION. If you want an idea of what I'm talking about look at this funny video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ7TZ-3qILQ

3: Shop around. I feel like im shooting myself in the foot saying this, but I highly doubt any of you are going to buy from me anyway. I don't care what dealership you go to they will try everything within their reasonable power to make you buy THAT DAY if you have some money. I will do it, the other guy does it, and they all do it. Why? Because most people that buy a car visit 1.1 dealerships on average. People lie to my face every single day. "oh i'll come back" there's a 90% chance you won't. If you don't get it from me that day you'll get it from the next guy. They will use psychological tricks to make you emotional about buying the car instead of logical. This works more often than you think. Keep your head clear and logical. Look online and in person for the best price for what you want. It is your right as a customer after all.

4: Again shooting myself in the foot, but Carvana is decent for used cars. They are far cheaper than dealerships, you don't have to do the song and dance, and last but not least you have a 7 day return. Be careful with them. You will not be able to test drive the car or look at it in person before it gets delivered to your house so make SURE it's what you want. Some people love carvana and have great experiences. Others have had their cars come fucked up and go through hell getting them returned because guess what? Just because they tell you 7 day return doesn't mean they'll make it easy. They also will probably be going out of business sooner or later.

5: Buying new is an option and works pretty similar to #1. However just because it's new doesn't mean it's perfect. Car recalls are a thing and it could either be "oh the back tailgate sensors don't work properly" to "oh shit the engines are catching on fire!" These new cars are just sitting in the plants being halfway built because they ran out of parts and have to wait for new ones to come in to build them. They can sit there for awhile, and it wouldn't surprise me if corners were cut in certain manufacturers. Don't ask me which ones because I don't work in a factory. Another thing is you either might get what you want, or you will have to wait for a reallllly long time.

You might get lucky, or you will have to pay an extra delivery fee for the dealership. We can locate brand new cars at our sister stores and get them for you. It costs us money, which will increase what you pay, and you will have to put down a $500-1000 holding deposit while waiting. If we get it and you don't buy it you WILL NOT GET THAT MONEY BACK UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. However if you do buy it you will either get it back or put it towards a down payment. We are NOT getting it from the factory we are just dealer trading.

Do not ask me "when will it come in?" and get mad when I tell you I don't know because I don't fucking know. They don't tell us when the new cars are coming, and they don't know themselves. They come from the factories when they're done. NO we cannot just "order" one from the factory, and even if you could you would be waiting 6 months. You might have to wait 6 months regardless depending on what new car you want. I don't know if this is still true or not, but to put this into perspective there were only six new honda civics in the entire state of Pennsylvania for sale at one point in time. That's atleast what I've heard from word of mouth.
 
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I heard once some stories or rumors then some rich people in Brazil once buyed less fancy cars as a way to look low profile to not attract too much attention.

I never understood why so many people put so much money into what vehicle they drive anyway. It's supposed to be a medium to get you from point A to B--nothing more. Even if I were well-off, I wouldn't buy an expensive vehicle. I don't get it. That money would be better spend on a better place to live or in savings.
 
I never understood why so many people put so much money into what vehicle they drive anyway. It's supposed to be a medium to get you from point A to B--nothing more. Even if I were well-off, I wouldn't buy an expensive vehicle. I don't get it. That money would be better spend on a better place to live or in savings.
 
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