The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[History Speaks]

Honestly I know it is kiwi farms but I am not particularly interested in name calling or call outs. I do not have a personal problem with people simply because they believe in dumb conspiracy theories. Flipping through the thread and calling out "deniers" does not really interest me, instead I will continue to show why denial is a boomer conspiracy theory drawn from 1980s and early 90s VHS.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I think it's par for the course that you're able to talk about mountains of forensic evidence, but don't really want to get into the nitty gritty of actually having mass graves, that you're also talking about mountains of deniers in this thread, without being able to identify even just 4.

Who cares about using evidence to support your assertions, amirite?

 

[JohnDoe]

I do not have a personal problem with people simply because they believe in dumb conspiracy theories.

Good, it'd be hypocritical otherwise, since you seem to believe that 1940's Germans were able to psychically coordinate genocide and also able to vaporize corpses with magic.

Flipping through the thread and calling out "deniers" does not really interest me

It's all you seem to do though. So I don't know if you're lying about this or motivated by other reasons. Are you being paid?

I personally don't care about any resettlement theories, and they don't matter because they aren't the point of contention. The real issue is that you are making some pretty extraordinary claims (6 GORILLION!) and not backing that up with evidence. The burden of proof is on you, my dude, to demonstrate that the Holocaust happened.

 

[History Speaks]

Honestly, with millions of Jews having disappeared in Nazi custody (the camp system), a boatload of contemporaneous documentary and physical evidence attesting to their murder (including by gassing), and numerous perpetrators confessing in non-coercive (non judicial) contexts, in private letters and diaries, you shoulder the burden of proof to offer an alternative explanation for their disapperance.

The reason deniers promoted the resettlement hypothesis is because they implicitly recognized their burden of proof, i.e. the need to offer an alternative explanation for the disappearance of the millions of Jews. Too bad for them that there is zero evidence of resettlements having existed.

My god, you actually are saying "6 Gorillion?" Use your brain to come up with something original and funny, rather than recycling dead memes like a 6th grader.

 

[Lemmingwise]

My god, you actually are saying "6 Gorillion?" Use your brain to come up with something original and funny, rather than recycling dead memes like a 6th grader.

Yeah, you've made a lot of original and funny posts on this site so far.

 

[Bonesjones]

Just a reminder, there are a few points you have to answer.

1. It was a deliberate genocide with orders from the top.

2. That the deaths were intentional and industrialized using gas chambers.

Its not enough to say jews died in the custody of the Nazis, its also not enough to state they simply disappeared. You have to account for a majority in terms of direct action and evidence.

This is the key holocaust argument. Everything else is tertiary at best.

Stating troops did extrajudicial killings isn't an arguement for the Holocaust, its against it. Stating the Nazis fled leaving tens to hundreds of thousands of prisoners in their wake which were never accounted for is also not an arguement for the Holocaust.

Every time you make these points or anything like them you are devaluing your own key arguements.

We know there was no order from the top, which is why lame code words were invented.

We know there were no gas chambers because contemporary photos show they didn't exist.

We know there are no mass graves that account for even a fraction of the necessary killings.

All you have left is a hodgepodge of documents and testimony that amounts to nothing.

 

[Zagrim]

-be me
-grow up in 90s watch nonstop history channel
-nonstop kill the literal nazi video games
-saving private ryan band of brothers etc.
-start studying holocaust for fun
-ignore european royalty and history for a while
-finally combine the two

Lord Farquaad did it not hitler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_jWHffIx5E

 

[History Speaks]

Just a reminder, there are a few points you have to answer.

1. It was a deliberate genocide with orders from the top.

2. That the deaths were intentional and industrialized using gas chambers.

Its not enough to say jews died in the custody of the Nazis, its also not enough to state they simply disappeared. You have to account for a majority in terms of direct action and evidence.

This is the key holocaust argument. Everything else is tertiary at best.

Stating troops did extrajudicial killings isn't an arguement for the Holocaust, its against it. Stating the Nazis fled leaving tens to hundreds of thousands of prisoners in their wake which were never accounted for is also not an arguement for the Holocaust.

Every time you make these points or anything like them you are devaluing your own key arguements.

We know there was no order from the top, which is why lame code words were invented.

We know there were no gas chambers because contemporary photos show they didn't exist.

We know there are no mass graves that account for even a fraction of the necessary killings.

All you have left is a hodgepodge of documents and testimony that amounts to nothing.

It is hilarious how you devote so much time to regurgitating memes which (having done no actual research) you read on an image board, and pretend I have never addressed them. Are you some kind of neonazi wind up toy or a real person?

You read on an image board that no gas chambers have been found. But there is literally a largely intact gas chamber today in Natzweiler concentration camp, which was liberated by the western allies. And there are autopsied bodies of gassed victims from this camp.

You also read on an image board that there are no or almost no mass graves. Yet Numerous mass graves have been found, and are still being found to this day. At Belzec alone, even the denier Mattogno admits that the 33 mass graves that have been found could accomodate 170,000 cadavers. (He is vastly underestimating the capacity of the Belzec mass graves to inter Jews - because he is not taken into account how starved the Jews arriving at Belzec were - but this is still a striking figure).

Quoting Mattogno - "The surface area of the graves identified by Kola is 5,919 square meters and their volume 21,310 cubic meters, theoretically sufficient to inter (21,310×8=) 170,480 corpses"

The "hodgepodge" of wartime documents I have includes contemporaneous expressions of genocidal intent, and references to ongoing genocide, by the leading Nazis. Hitler telling the Hungarian regent that the Polish Jews were killed if they could not work, Himmler telling SS personnel and German generals that he gave he order to kill and loot Jews, Hans Frank wriing that he is condemning 1.2 million Polish Jews to death by starvation, and that they will be deported to the camps if they are not successfully starved, Goebbels referring to the "liquidiation" of non-working Jews being sent to the Reinhardt camps, and other obviously damning documents.

 

[Bonesjones]

It is hilarious how you devote so much time to regurgitating memes which (having done no actual research) you read on an image board, and pretend I have never addressed them. Are you some kind of neonazi wind up toy or a real person?

You read on an image board that no gas chambers have been found. But there is literally a largely gas chamber today in Natzweiler concentration camp, which was liberated by the western allies. And there are autopsied bodies of gassed victims from this camp.

You also read on an image board that there are no or almost no mass graves. Yet Numerous mass graves have been found, and are still being found to this day. At Belzec alone, even the denier Mattogno admits that the 33 mass graves that have been found could accomodate 170,000 cadavers. (He is vastly underestimating the capacity of the Belzec mass graves to inter Jews - because he is not taken into account how starved the Jews arriving at Belzec were - but this is still a striking figure).

Quoting Mattogno - "The surface area of the graves identified by Kola is 5,919 square meters and their volume 21,310 cubic meters, theoretically sufficient to inter (21,310×8=) 170,480 corpses"

The "hodgepodge" of wartime documents I have includes Hitler telling the Hungarian regent that the Polish Jews were killed if they could not work, Himmler telling SS personnel and German generals that he gave he order to kill and loot Jews, Hans Frank wriing that he is condemning 1.2 million Polish Jews to death by starvation, and that they will be deported to the camps if they are not successfully starved, Goebbels referring to the "liquidiation" of non-working Jews being sent to the camps, and other obviously damning documents.

Look at you duck and dodge. You have to account for every single one. You have to prove they existed and killed millions of people. This is your level of burden of proof you've put yourself in. I don't care how impossible you find it. This is the official story that you have to stick to. You have to prove not only did one exist at Auschwitz and Belzec, but every other death camp. Not only do you have to prove they existed, you have to prove they were capable of killing the claimed numbers of people. Then, you have to prove they actually killed those people, with remains accounted for.

So start listing, otherwise shut up you retarded self important faggot.

Again, this is your level of believe and proof. No one else created it for you. You could admit that the Nazis had forced labor camps with widespread mistreatment that led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands to anywhere above and 99% would agree with you. BUT, YOU DIDN'T DO THAT.

Until those supposed mass graves are exhumed in accordance with international law, which includes careful consideration of third party witnesses and extensive photography, they don't exist. It doesn't matter what person said what when. You either do a full investigation or you shut the fuck up.

Again, these are your standards of believe. I'm not asking you to hold yourself to anything. I'm telling you that the official story of the Holocaust is nonsense. You have to prove otherwise since it's your claim. The fact you are unable means you lose.

You aren't as smart as you think nor as educated as you want to appear. You are just another easily manipulated moron with an ideological axe to grind. I'm guessing you are another loser like Chugger who got ran off the other holocaust revisionist message boards and came here to cry about it because they won't let you endlessly run your mouth and dodge every response you refuse to answer.

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

It is hilarious how you devote so much time to regurgitating memes which (having done no actual research) you read on an image board, and pretend I have never addressed them. Are you some kind of neonazi wind up toy or a real person?

You read on an image board that no gas chambers have been found. But there is literally a largely intact gas chamber today in Natzweiler concentration camp, which was liberated by the western allies. And there are autopsied bodies of gassed victims from this camp.

You also read on an image board that there are no or almost no mass graves. Yet Numerous mass graves have been found, and are still being found to this day. At Belzec alone, even the denier Mattogno admits that the 33 mass graves that have been found could accomodate 170,000 cadavers. (He is vastly underestimating the capacity of the Belzec mass graves to inter Jews - because he is not taken into account how starved the Jews arriving at Belzec were - but this is still a striking figure).

Quoting Mattogno - "The surface area of the graves identified by Kola is 5,919 square meters and their volume 21,310 cubic meters, theoretically sufficient to inter (21,310×8=) 170,480 corpses"

The "hodgepodge" of wartime documents I have includes contemporaneous expressions of genocidal intent, and references to ongoing genocide, by the leading Nazis. Hitler telling the Hungarian regent that the Polish Jews were killed if they could not work, Himmler telling SS personnel and German generals that he gave he order to kill and loot Jews, Hans Frank wriing that he is condemning 1.2 million Polish Jews to death by starvation, and that they will be deported to the camps if they are not successfully starved, Goebbels referring to the "liquidiation" of non-working Jews being sent to the Reinhardt camps, and other obviously damning documents.

Look, you're obviously an intelligent guy so let me engage you on something I'm sure you'll be very knowledgeable about, and be able to truly add to the conversation.

What are the best terms for fucking someone over that people miss in contracts on high interest loans?

 

[History Speaks]

Look at you duck and dodge. You have to account for every single one. You have to prove they existed and killed millions of people. This is your level of burden of proof you've put yourself in. I don't care how impossible you find it. This is the official story that you have to stick to. You have to prove not only did one exist at Auschwitz and Belzec, but every other death camp. Not only do you have to prove they existed, you have to prove they were capable of killing the claimed numbers of people. Then, you have to prove they actually killed those people, with remains accounted for.

So start listing, otherwise shut up you retarded self important faggot.

Again, this is your level of believe and proof. No one else created it for you. You could admit that the Nazis had forced labor camps with widespread mistreatment that led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands to anywhere above and 99% would agree with you. BUT, YOU DIDN'T DO THAT.

Until those supposed mass graves are exhumed in accordance with international law, which includes careful consideration of third party witnesses and extensive photography, they don't exist. It doesn't matter what person said what when. You either do a full investigation or you shut the fuck up.

Again, these are your standards of believe. I'm not asking you to hold yourself to anything. I'm telling you that the official story of the Holocaust is nonsense. You have to prove otherwise since it's your claim. The fact you are unable means you lose.

You aren't as smart as you think nor as educated as you want to appear. You are just another easily manipulated moron with an ideological axe to grind. I'm guessing you are another loser like Chugger who got ran off the other holocaust revisionist message boards and came here to cry about it because they won't let you endlessly run your mouth and dodge every response you refuse to answer.

The "standards of believe" (lol) you are proposing are standards that, if consistently applied, would require you to deny that World War I and World War II and the holdomor and basically every genocide in hisory happened, since we do not have 'all the mass graves'

You are invoking a fake evidentiary standard to try to arrive at the conclusion you wish to arrive at.

 

[Bonesjones]

The "standards of believe" (lol) you are proposing are standards that, if consistently applied, would require you to deny that World War I and World War II and the holdomor and basically every genocide in hisory happened, since we do not have 'all the mass graves'

You are invoking a fake evidentiary standard to try to arrive at the conclusion you wish to arrive at.

So you can't meet your own standards of proof? So where do you go from here, admitting you don't have the physical evidence to support your claims? No one but you has said gas chambers were widely used. So if you can't prove they exist, what are you claiming?

I personally would claim that most of history is fictional. Most of it can't be proved one way or the other, the evidence is scant. The thing is, I never claimed to suggest any of it was. You did though, you claimed the official holocaust story is truth and any one who claims to deny or alter it is wrong.

Quite the situation you've put yourself in, defending the indefensible. But again. You are the idiot who did so.

 

[History Speaks]

I personally would claim that most of history is fictional. Most of it can't be proved one way or the other, the evidence is scant.

I win because I got you to admit you are a kook. gg.

 

[Bonesjones]

I win because I got you to admit you are a kook. gg.

I dont believe in claims without evidence yet you do, and I'm the kook? All you are is laughable projection. So again: this isn't the Nazis were bad people who did bad things thread. This is the Holocaust thread, so support your arguement or you are just a Chugger tier niggerfaggot for the rest of your life.

 

[Lemmingwise]

You read on an image board that no gas chambers have been found. But there is literally a largely intact gas chamber today in Natzweiler concentration camp, which was liberated by the western allies. And there are autopsied bodies of gassed victims from this camp.

Look I don't know much about natzweiler concentration camp, but if they made urns for the cremated deaths, we're not exactly talking mass murder on the scale that's alleged.



And didn't you define denier earlier as the following?

Deniers are defined as those who deny EITHER 1) systematic extermination of the Jews by gassing in the Reinhardt camps and Auschwitz-Birkenau, OR 2) systematic murder of Jewish civilians on the Eastern Front by mass shooting.

Considering that your best gas chamber evidence is one that isn't even included in the denier category, as it's neither auchwitz-birkenau or one of the reinhardt camp... it's fascinating that you decided to use this one to bolster your argument.

---

As for your other points:

1. Why should anyone care what mattogno believes or doesn't believe?
2. Hitler message to hungarian regent: where's the evidence? Sounds interesting.
3. Your complaining about memes when someone makes legitimate points instead of addressing them is pretty embarrassing. You addressed the top-down thing and the intentionality (depends on the evidence produced now to verify that), but you pretty much sailed wide of the gas chamber thing by binging only forward a gas chamber that wasn't used for the scale of mass murder alleged.

It leaves me thinking, no holes no holocaust, were they right with that phrase after all?

 

[Johan Schmidt]

I win because I got you to admit you are a kook. gg.

No? Most of history is largely unsubstantiated. The evidence in broad strokes exists of ancient briton settlements in the UK; but we know who those people were, how they saw themselves, and how they died out because of the personal records. But those records themselves are poorly preserved, completely anecdotal, and largely do not reference each other.

The past is very much a foreign culture. Everything we know about it, is written by the people who live in it. We can't just put up a Star Trek holoscanner or whatever and build a view of the world as it was. We have to sift through the literal dirt to observe it. Even with things that go back only a few hundred years is a black box outside of certain illuminated parts. There's a photograph in a small manor where near where I live, which shows off people who died during the first world war. Most of them had no other relatives, and their family line ended there. Most of them were farmers, and the only record that they ever even existed is a small picture, in a glass frame hung up on a public access museum. For all of the rest of time, if that photo is destroyed, it'll be like they were never even there. That's most of history. We can track the broad strokes, but we can only recover fragments of the little things.

All memes aside, I'll personally say that I have no idea if the big jew burning ever happened. Could it have happened? Sure, terrible things happen during war. There were records of mass executions of people are reprisals, or out of anger on everyones side. The British kept German POW's as literal slaves for years. The system of concentration camps was well understood to be vulnerable to abuse since the Boer war. I haven't been particularly convinced by the evidence, much in the same way I am not particularly convinced by Williams claim that Harold swore an oath granting him the throne of England. The entire thing is - to me anyway - lost in the mud of history; and I personally don't really care if it happened one way or the other. I don't get the obsession with either proving or disproving it.

 

[History Speaks]

Look I don't know much about natzweiler concentration camp, but if they made urns for the cremated deaths, we're not exactly talking mass murder on the scale that's alleged.

View attachment 3485024

And didn't you define denier earlier as the following?



Considering that your best gas chamber evidence is one that isn't even included in the denier category, as it's neither auchwitz-birkenau or one of the reinhardt camp... it's fascinating that you decided to use this one to bolster your argument.

---

As for your other points:

1. Why should anyone care what mattogno believes or doesn't believe?
2. Hitler message to hungarian regent: where's the evidence? Sounds interesting.
3. Your complaining about memes when someone makes legitimate points instead of addressing them is pretty embarrassing. You addressed the top-down thing and the intentionality (depends on the evidence produced now to verify that), but you pretty much sailed wide of the gas chamber thing by binging only forward a gas chamber that wasn't used for the scale of mass murder alleged.

It leaves me thinking, no holes no holocaust, were they right with that phrase after all?

I did address Auschwitz. The four working gas chambers in Auschwitz (the buildings we say were cremas and gas chambers, and deniers say were jus cremas) were demolished on Himmler's orders prior to the arrival of the Red Army, for obvious reasons. That is why these buildings are in ruins today.

However, we have plenty of contemporaneous doucmentary evidence showing that the buildings were gas chambers. Construction records referring to one of the buildings call it a "gassing celler", German orders for air-tight doors with peepholes were placed and fitted on the buildings we say were gas chambers, We also know that the buildings were ventilated with fans, which makes no sense if they were merely morgues or cremas, as deniers claim, but makes perfect sense if they were gas chambers (the ventilation would allow the Germans to air out the gas chambers, thereby preventing off-gassing of the kapos who went in to collect the bodies).

We also have forensic evidence indicating that the ruins of the gas chambers have substantial residue of Hydrogen Cyanide.

As for holes, they cannot be seen to the naked eye. The gas chambers are in ruins, having been blown up on Himmler's orders before liberation. The fact that they cannot be seen to random tourists passing by the cremas (which are basically mounds of collapsed wall and mortar) led to some boomer football spiking in the 1980s. Hence the "no holes, no Holocaust" meme you refer to.

However, n 2004, scholars burrowed beneath the demolished ruins of one of the gas chambers and found the holes - https://academic.oup.com/hgs/article-abstract/18/1/68/648579?redirectedFrom=PDF So there goes that meme.

I could go on but if you are even remotely open minded you will recognize that there is forensic evidence of gas chambers at Auschwitz, which together with all the perpetrator testimony attesting t othe gas chambers (including in non coercive situations, out of court and in private conversations), numerous contemporaneous German documents referring to the general policy of exterminating Jews including references to gassing, and of course the problem of the disappeared millions Jews in the Nazi camp system, constitute damning evidence.

As for Majdanek, see pic related, including the Prussian blue stains in the gas chamber.

 

[History Speaks]

2. Hitler message to hungarian regent: where's the evidence? Sounds interesting.

I have attached a copy of the meetings of a contemporaneous German document that quotes Hitler's meeting with Horthy.

THe money quote, regarding the Polish Jews.

"Wenn die Juden dort nicht arbeiten wollten, würden sie erschossen. Wenn sie nicht arbeiten könnten, müßten sie verkommen."

translation - "If the Jews there did not want to work, they were shot. If they couldn't work, they had to perish."

 

[Bonesjones]

I did address Auschwitz. The four working gas chambers in Auschwitz (the buildings we say were cremas and gas chambers, and deniers say were jus cremas) were demolished on Himmler's orders prior to the arrival of the Red Army, for obvious reasons. That is why these buildings are in ruins today.

However, we have plenty of contemporaneous doucmentary evidence showing that the buildings were gas chambers. Construction records referring to one of the buildings call it a "gassing celler", German orders for air-tight doors with peepholes were placed and fitted on the buildings we say were gas chambers, We also know that the buildings were ventilated with fans, which makes no sense if they were merely morgues or cremas, as deniers claim, but makes perfect sense if they were gas chambers (the ventilation would allow the Germans to air out the gas chambers, thereby preventing off-gassing of the kapos who went in to collect the bodies).

We also have forensic evidence indicating that the ruins of the gas chambers have substantial residue of Hydrogen Cyanide.

As for holes, they cannot be seen to the naked eye, have been found in the blown up ruins of the gas chambers at Birkenau. The fact that they cannot be seen to random tourists passing by the cremas (which are basically mounds of collapsed wall and mortar) led to some boomer football spiking in the 1980s, hence the meme you refer to.

More recently, in 2004, scholars burrowed beneath the demolished ruins and found the holes - https://academic.oup.com/hgs/article-abstract/18/1/68/648579?redirectedFrom=PDF

I could go on but if you are even remotely open minded you will recognize that there is forensic evidence of gas chambers at Auschwitz, which together with all the perpetrator testimony attesting t othe gas chambers (including in non coercive situations, out of court and in private conversations), numerous contemporaneous German documents referring to the general policy of exterminating Jews including references to gassing, and of course the problem of the disappeared millions Jews in the Nazi camp system, make for a compelling argument.

As for Majdanek, see pic related, including the Prussian blue stains in the gas chamber.

Hey look you make the classic mistake of confusing delousing chambers used to clean clothes of lice for gas chambers used to kill people. So what's your next goal post to jump to? Will you make the mistake of showing the tiny crematory and say they used them to burn all the bodies? We know mathematically that the only way for it to work is for them to run 24/7 at full capacity for years on end. Yet all the air photos don't show any smoke from the stacks. I wonder why? It's also curious why the United States would donate the original copies to Isreal. That's not suspicious at all.

You still never answer why they would use poison gas to kill people when suffocation works just as well and is quicker and safer. These evil Nazis are just so cruel they built Rube Goldberg devices of death.

Your links of course don't work, which isn't surprising considering your lack of a brain.

 

[History Speaks]

Hey look you make the classic mistake of confusing delousing chambers used to clean clothes of lice for gas chambers used to kill people. So what's your next goal post to jump to? Will you make the mistake of showing the tiny crematory and say they used them to burn all the bodies? We know mathematically that the only way for it to work is for them to run 24/7 at full capacity for years on end. Yet all the air photos don't show any smoke from the stacks. I wonder why? It's also curious why the United States would donate the original copies to Isreal. That's not suspicious at all.

You still never answer why they would use poison gas to kill people when suffocation works just as well and is quicker and safer. These evil Nazis are just so cruel they built Rube Goldberg devices of death.

Your links of course don't work, which isn't surprising considering your lack of a brain.

We know no such thing "mathematically." These are memes you read on image boards. You and other deniers have no expertise on cremation capacity.

Part of the reason that Auschwitz could (all else equal) cremate faster than, say, a funeral home could is that the victims were relatively evenly distributed among Jews of all ages, whereas dead people cremated in funeral homes are typically adults. Another factor is that the Auschwitz inmates were starving, and thus the cadavers were lighter. Yet another factor is that the Germans cremated multiple bodies at a time, whereas funeral homes would not do such a thing.

As to cremation capacity at Auschwitz, we have a chain of German documents indicating a need for greater capacity at Auschwitz. I have attached one of these documents. Eventually, the cremation capacity reached 4,756 per day, according to documentation from Auschwitz (I have attached it).