The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[History Speaks]

So there is a minimum amount of fuel (depending on the fuel) required to cremate a cadaver.

But the minimum fuel requirement is not equivalent to the minimum energy requirement, because there are other sources of energy than fuel, and there are techniques that allow you to get more of those sources of energy (e.g. running the cremas all day to build up heat). The minimum fuel requirement is not a "law of physics" and depends instead on contingent circumstances, i.e. technology and method.

That is all I am saying bro. I challenge you to look at those sentences and tell me what you disagree with, OR alternatively if you do not disagree with anything, tell me what there is contradictory with the earlier stuff Lemming quoted. Be specific and do not play with language.

And of course I will be back here all the time LOL. Not least to prove you guys wrong (not really you John, because I have to be honest and admit I do not believe you are actually dumb enough to believe the quoted passages are humiliating for me) about my impending lolcow status.

 

[Lemmingwise]

my impending lolcow status.

He's starting to accept reality.

 

[Chugger]

Hey @Chugger
Explain to @History Speaks why he's wrong.
Or do you agree with him?

lol I think you guys are talking past each other a little bit due to emotions, but my main takeaway from what HS is saying is that there are a lot of ways to make cremation more fuel efficient beyond what you see in civilian crematories (eg not turning the ovens off, positioning the bodies in various ways, simultaneous cremation). I agree with this, and a document referenced by HDOT that I posted on the last page shows the Germans did as well

but I still don't understand the broader point you're trying to make, or the significance you see in this conversation, beyond using it as a wedge to attack HS's competence.

It has to do with a question that I keep asking and not getting an answer to.

We've been through this before, but are you saying that hypothetically if they had killed and buried millions of men women and children, an act unprecedented in human history, they would have left these graves untouched to be discovered by Soviet photographers?

It seems obvious to me (because I don't think the Nazis were morons) that they would have diverted some of their coal supply, which was relatively abundant, towards covering this up

If you say it couldn't happen because there's no record of coal being delivered, well there is, and if those records are incomplete that's understandable. There's a difference between "incomplete" and totally non-existent, which is the evidentiary case for deported Jews being maintained, fed, supplied, whatever, in Russia.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from here.

 

[Lemmingwise]

@Chugger I'll answer any one question from my perspective if you answer this one:

there are techniques that allow you to get more of those sources of energy (e.g. running the cremas all day to build up heat)

Do you agree with @History Speaks that running cremas all day, which were heated by fuel, are a separate source of energy than fuel?

 

[History Speaks]

@Chugger I'll answer any one question from my perspective if you answer this one:



Do you agree with @History Speaks that running cremas all day, which were heated by fuel, are a separate source of energy than fuel?

I did not say "running the cremas all day" is a separate source of energy. I said it creates a separate source of energy, namely heat.

John, note that this is the best your wing man can do LMAO.

 

[Chugger]

Do you agree with @History Speaks that running cremas all day, which were heated by fuel, are a separate source of energy than fuel?

yeah, if he is saying energy is heat

 

[Lemmingwise]

I did not say "running the cremas all day" is a separate source of energy. I said it creates a separate source of energy, namely heat.

John, note that this is the best your wing man can do LMAO.

You literally just did:

those sources of energy (e.g. running the cremas all day to build up heat)

 

[Chugger]

You literally just did:

you're lawyering up again dude. this is kiwifarms. touch grass. it's almost sunrise for you

 

[History Speaks]

You literally just did:

The full quotation was "there are techniques that allow you to get more of those sources of energy (e.g. running the cremas all day to build up heat)." Clearly I was referring to "running the cremas all day" as a technique to get more sources of energy, not a source of energy.

I am not going to respond to this personal stuff anymore because it is so ridiculous that failing to ignore it makes me look bad. We can talk about substantive issues related to the Holocaust and Holocaust denial if you wish.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Amazing. We're examining the energy/fuel required to cremate a cadaver. To be charitable, the assumption is made for perfect energy efficiency. And both of you seem to think that in this, the surplus heat from the fuel is a separate source of energy.

yeah, if he is saying energy is heat

This really is a strange comment in this context. The resulting statement would be that heat is a separate source of heat. But it is a nice cherry on top for the discussion. Kek.
You do get your question that will get an answer. Fire away.

Clearly I was referring to "running the cremas all day" as a technique to get more sources of energy.

Amazing, a quadruple down.

If I were you I would ask yourself why I trigger you so much, to the point where you are (unsucessfully, lol) parsing grammar to try to make me look dumb.

Trust me, I don't have to try anything at all to make you look dumb.

 

[Stan]

I note that there is even a feature labeled as 'cremation pit' there, which begs the question of why it would be needed if there was such amazing super advanced cremation facilities a stones throw away? The photo 'identifies' three buildings close by as crematoriums, which makes the presence of a cremation pit seem a little superfluous. (Weird that there are no interior photos that would show without a doubt if those buildings houses cremation units.) The photos don't make any sense in the context of the narrative about mega-effecient magic corpse-be-gone crematoriums, but they also don't even make sense in their own internal logic - why have a cremation pit and open air burnings when there are no less than 3 crematoriums?

I guess a more simple explanation might be that that area had an open air burn pit for corpse sterilization, and the labeling/stories of crematoriums are a fabrication. That seems to fit with the available evidence presented.

To use a chemistry term, the rate limiting step of extermination camps was and continued to be cremation capacity, throughout the war. Getting rid of bodies was time consuming and difficult work. Cremation pits were utilized when crematories couldn’t keep up with demand. One specific company, Topf & Sons, did most of the speciality engineering to make crematories capable of cremating more than one body at once.

The purpose of these custom Topf and sons crematories in acts of mass murder is given away by their design. In Germany at the time it was illegal to cremate more than one person at a time or mix ashes together. Topf crematories delivered to the camps did this anyway; with designs capable of holding 8 cremated bodies at once. Topf designed modular crematories to move to concentration camps as needed to help break up logjams of excessive bodies.

Also, if the crematories and the auxiliary burn pits could keep up with needs to cremate, the SS weren’t above leaving bodies around in cold weather to wait for disposal, or forcing camp labor to dig a mass grave and throwing the bodies in there. Most of the SS officers tasked with duties like these were blind drunk most of the time and not particularly fussy about cremation completeness.

@Stan I'll look and comment at your evidence that you asked, just not tonight. I'm not going to make a jstor account. Can you pull it from their site or something?

That’s a bit of a pain to export given Jstor’s methods to prevent people from reposting their stuff but I will try for the benefit of the thread.

PS It’s possible, if not environmentally friendly, to cremate people using firewood. If you’re using an oven to do it I think the main difference will be the amount of time it takes for the oven to heat up. So German fuel shortages in gas, coal, oil, would not have made it impossible to run the crematoria.

 

[History Speaks]

To use a chemistry term, the rate limiting step of extermination camps was and continued to be cremation capacity, throughout the war. Getting rid of bodies was time consuming and difficult work. Cremation pits were utilized when crematories couldn’t keep up with demand. One specific company, Topf & Sons, did most of the speciality engineering to make crematories capable of cremating more than one body at once.

The purpose of these custom Topf and sons crematories in acts of mass murder is given away by their design. In Germany at the time it was illegal to cremate more than one person at a time or mix ashes together. Topf crematories delivered to the camps did this anyway; with designs capable of holding 8 cremated bodies at once. Topf designed modular crematories to move to concentration camps as needed to help break up logjams of excessive bodies.

Also, if the crematories and the auxiliary burn pits could keep up with needs to cremate, the SS weren’t above leaving bodies around in cold weather to wait for disposal, or forcing camp labor to dig a mass grave and throwing the bodies in there. Most of the SS officers tasked with duties like these were blind drunk most of the time and not particularly fussy about cremation completeness.

That’s a bit of a pain to export given Jstor’s methods to prevent people from reposting their stuff but I will try for the benefit of the thread.

PS It’s possible, if not environmentally friendly, to cremate people using firewood. If you’re using an oven to do it I think the main difference will be the amount of time it takes for the oven to heat up. So German fuel shortages in gas, coal, oil, would not have made it impossible to run the crematoria.

Stan, you may be interested in a 1985 analysis by engineers Klaus and Christel Kunz. They describe how Topf's cremation technique - which dries out corpses through evaporation, utilizes the emission of fat from heavy corpses, is built to run continuously throughout the day, and so on - is highly fuel efficient. The engineers argue that Topf-style cremas could have cremated far more bodies than were even cremated at Auschwitz, using an (assumed) loading capacity of 50 corpses, which they say is quite possible if the crematoria have the right dimensions.

I described this in more detail in a previous post but can try to dig up this paper if you are interested, hopefully there is an English version.

 

[Lemmingwise]

PS It’s possible, if not environmentally friendly, to cremate people using firewood. If you’re using an oven to do it I think the main difference will be the amount of time it takes for the oven to heat up. So German fuel shortages in gas, coal, oil, would not have made it impossible to run the crematoria.

Considering how this discussion started, it's not new information. Firewood is a type of fuel when discussing the energy needed and was mentioned specifically as an option.

 

[JohnDoe]

Stan, you may be interested in a 1985 analysis by engineers Klaus and Christel Kunz. They describe how Topf's cremation technique - which dries out corpses through evaporation, utilizes the emission of fat from heavy corpses, is built to run continuously throughout the day, and so on - is highly fuel efficient. The engineers argue that Topf-style cremas could have cremated far more bodies than were even cremated at Auschwitz, using an (assumed) loading capacity of 50 corpses, which they say is quite possible if the crematoria have the right dimensions.

I described this in more detail in a previous post but can try to dig up this paper if you are interested, hopefully there is an English version.

Present their engineering analysis, diagrams, and calculations, if they exist. I'd be very interested to see how they managed to break the laws of thermodynamics and use less fuel than is required, oh, I'm sorry you say it right here - apparently the

starved cadaver

starved child

70-pound corpse

when burning a bunch of bodies of 70 pounds

emaciated cadavers are comprised of highly combustible fat which is just chock full of extra energy. Wow, maybe the German army should have converted all these obese prisoners into biofuel for their Panzers.

 

[History Speaks]

Present their engineering analysis, diagrams, and calculations, if they exist. I'd be very interested to see how they managed to break the laws of thermodynamics and use less fuel than is required, oh, I'm sorry you say it right here - apparently the




emaciated cadavers are comprised of highly combustible fat which is just chock full of extra energy. Wow, maybe the German army should have converted all these obese prisoners into biofuel for their Panzers.

Hey,

1 - I disagree that cremation technology that improves fuel efficiency violates the laws of physics. I also disagree that fuel is synonymous with energy - it is not energy, but a source of energy, and not the only source of energy used in cremation. I think your conflation of fuel and energy is your foundational mistake, which is causing a lot of fruitless exchanges between us.

2 - as I said earlier (relevant part bolded)-

Another source of energy would be the emission of human fat, which is why the Nazis apparently tried to include well fed corpses in their batches alongside emaciated ones.

 

[mrolonzo]

Present their engineering analysis, diagrams, and calculations, if they exist. I'd be very interested to see how they managed to break the laws of thermodynamics and use less fuel than is required, oh, I'm sorry you say it right here - apparently the




emaciated cadavers are comprised of highly combustible fat which is just chock full of extra energy. Wow, maybe the German army should have converted all these obese prisoners into biofuel for their Panzers.

Yes. It's the fat that provides the extra energy apparently. Or the extra heat created by pre warming the ovens in a perpetual energy builder.
The fat comes from the starved bodies that were also just off the train and so were not fat.

So they gathered a group a starving Jews, then found a few fat Jews that could be added to the mix to keep the fire going.......

Like when you're cooking bacon on a open fire. To keep the fire going you need to find some extra fat and throw that on to the fire. This was all planned ahead of time

 

[History Speaks]

Yes. It's the fat that provides the extra energy apparently. Or the extra heat created by pre warming the ovens in a perpetual energy builder.
The fat comes from the starved bodies that were also just off the train and so were not fat. Also the nazis know knew people were starving but still wanted to gas them because it was cheaper than feeding them or all the delousing operations they'd been doing which they got bored of. They also got bored of releasing Jews too or doing surgery.

The millions of Polish Jews whom the Nazis stuffed into the ghettos were certainly deliberately starved, but Jews deported from, for example, the Netherlands and Norway had not been ghettoized or deliberately starved by the Nazis prior to their deportation. This was probably because the Dutch and other Western Europeans were mostly not anti-semitic and would have been appalled by this.

So many of the Jewish deportees to Auschwitz - from Western Europe - would have been overweight or normal weight. If you are overweight a few to several days in a cattle car to Auschwitz - however brutal - is not going to reduce you to skin and bones.'

It was not all planned ahead of time. They engaged in all kinds of experimentation and innovation to maximize fuel efficiency with cremation. There is a whole documentary record supporting this, e.g. documents showing Germans complaining about the inadequate cremation capacities at Auschwitz, Topf's documents describing his new innovations in fuel efficiency, documents describing these innovations in technical detail, etc . . .

 

[mrolonzo]

The millions of Polish Jews whom the Nazis stuffed into the ghettos were certainly deliberately starved, but Jews deported from, for example, the Netherlands and Norway had not been ghettoized or deliberately starved by the Nazis prior to their deportation. This was probably because the Dutch and other Western Europeans were mostly not anti-semitic and would have been appalled by this.

So many of the Jewish deportees to Auschwitz - from Western Europe - would have been overweight or normal weight. If you are overweight a few to several days in a cattle car to Auschwitz - however brutal - is not going to reduce you to skin and bones.

Right. So they chucked a few Dutch or Norwegian Jews into the barbecue to keep the fire going blah blah

 

[History Speaks]

Right. So they chucked a few Dutch or Norwegian Jews into the barbecue to keep the fire going blah blah

I mean, I doubt they cared about nationality. What they did care about - and we have evidence to support this - is including well-fed cadavers alongside emaciated ones. The point about Dutch and Norwegian Jews not being starved (until the end of the war, where the Dutch people in general were starving) was simply to show you that there were non-emaciated Jewish corpses available to the nazis. I was not claiming that the SS men cared about the nationality of the cadavers.

All deniers have are intuition pumps - e.g. "this sounds silly," "the Germans would never behave like this," ad infinitum. We have a firm documentary record establishing our story of Nazi mass murder. Human intuition is weak and I prefer evidence, especially in such abudance.

If we are going off pure intuition, mine says that it makes no sense for millions of Jews to disappear without a trace from the German camp system during the war, with no evidence of their resettlement outside the camps.

 

[Lemmingwise]

So many of the Jewish deportees to Auschwitz - from Western Europe - would have been overweight or normal weight. If you are overweight a few to several days in a cattle car to Auschwitz - however brutal - is not going to reduce you to skin and bones.'

He he he, so at the same time, the crematory capacity was sufficient because the people were emaciated, meaning they could burn much more people than ordinary circumstances. And at the other hand the fuel necessary was minimal, because they had fatties to use as fuel. Really trying to have things both ways here.

We're not going by intuition. You were given clear and straightforward physics calculation and you showed your complete incapability of understanding even the basic parameters. It's not intuition, it's just basic scientific literacy that some people have and you lack. I understand that it may seem like magic to you.

If you weren't a zealot or shill, you would have no qualms about admitting the limits of your expertise. The fact that you continue to double down, is because to you, it's no different than what you were doing before: bullshitting. You don't notice you've crossed a line where you pretend to be an expert while not understanding basic physics laws or how these situations are typically examined scientifically. Because you've been pretending to be an expert from the get go.