The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[JohnDoe]

Like when you're cooking bacon on a open fire. To keep the fire going you need to find some extra fat and throw that on to the fire. This was all planned ahead of time

I think we need to revisit the esteemed opinion of Dr. @Bonesjones

If you just put a pizza in the oven. You can cook it, then turn the oven off and use the heat from that pizza to cook another pizza.

So the real trick is that you need a very fatty pizza.

but Jews deported from, for example, the Netherlands had not been ghettoized or deliberately starved by the Nazis prior to their deportation.

Okay so now the story is that the Nazis carefully timed Jewish deportation from those places to keep the right proportion of starved to fatty Jews, just a cattlecar or two every week or whatever over the space of years?

I'll quote myself: You purport to be an academic with considerable education and subject matter expertise in this area in particular, and discussions of this topic should not be novel, so why do you seem so ill-equipped to respond in a measured and clear fashion?

When this was first brought up it was "oh the corpses are like 70 pounds and starved cadavers" then it was "well the crematoriums were more efficient because german magic" then "well I have a secret patent that purports to use the corpse's fat as fuel" and now to "well they spiked the starved cadaver supply with a fat one here and there" except with a dozen histrionic posts between every step. If you were a well informed academic with tons of material (not anecdotal or narrative) evidence to support you then step one would have been to present the complete truth in one simple, clear post. Not drag this affair out like you have nothing to support your point and are desperately searching the internet for anything you can copy-paste in while deliberately being obtuse and obnoxious.

I prefer evidence

Then present some.

 

[History Speaks]

I never claimed to be an expert in cremation. The extent of my knowledge is that I have read a couple books about cremation as preparation for my engagement with this subject. I am no chemist either, although I was a chemistry major at uni before switching. I switched because I was clumsy in lab, but I was excellent in the theoretical chemistry. I know enough about chemistry to know that fuel is not energy, it is a source of energy.

Your foundational error - and the reason that you think innovations that increase fuel efficiency violate the laws of physics - is conflating fuel and energy. I am sorry but that is the way of it.

btw As insulting as you have been, I do not take that too seriously because this is the Internet and Kiwifarms.

re - Lemming, take it up with the German engineers I cited. But in implying it is "impossible" for the inclusion of heavy bodies to be fuel efficient at some level, but not fuel efficient at a higher level, you are again appealing to intuition, this time in a way that misunderstands math.

Variable A (the inclusion of heavy bodies) is perfectly capable of having a positive effect on cremation efficiency (compared to burning the bodies individually) in B quantity, but a negative effect on efficiency in B+C quantity. That is basic statistics - a variable can have two effects in the opposite directions, and one direction can overpower the other at certain quantities of the variable.

By the way - and in anticipation of a straw man - I am not claiming that the existence of heavy bodies makes it quicker to burn corpses than it would be if there were no such corpses at all. I am merely claiming that - with the existence of heavy bodies at Auschwitz, i.e. Western European deportees, as a given, and with the task of having to burn all these bodies as a given - it is more efficient to burn them alongside emaciated bodies, than to burn all these bodies individually, because the emission of fat from the heavy bodies is another source of energy.

 

[PickaTopTier]

If we are going off pure intuition, mine says that it makes no sense for millions of Jews to disappear without a trace from the German camp system during the war, with no evidence of their resettlement outside the camps.

So you're saying that since theres probably 5-6 million illegal Mexican immigrants in US that Mexico has a strong case for a genocide? They probably didn't tell the government they were leaving, so no paperwork. Hopefully they'll go by more than intuition.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I never claimed to be an expert

I was a chemistry major at uni before switching

I was excellent in the theoretical chemistry.

Impending lolcow status.

 

[History Speaks]

So you're saying that since theres probably 5-6 million illegal Mexican immigrants in US that Mexico has a strong case for a genocide? They probably didn't tell the government they were leaving, so no paperwork. Hopefully they'll go by more than intuition.

We have witnesses of their existence, buildings where they live, pictures, etc. There is zero evidence of any community of millions or even thousands of Jews moved out of the camp system and into some permanent settlement.

 

[mrolonzo]

I mean, I doubt they cared about nationality. What they did care about - and we have evidence to support this - is including well-fed cadavers alongside emaciated ones. The point about Dutch and Norwegian Jews not being starved (until the end of the war, where the Dutch people in general were starving) was simply to show you that there were non-emaciated Jewish corpses available to the nazis. I was not claiming that the SS men cared about the nationality of the cadavers.

All deniers have are intuition pumps - e.g. "this sounds silly," "the Germans would never behave like this," ad infinitum. We have a firm documentary record establishing our story of Nazi mass murder. Human intuition is weak and I prefer evidence, especially in such abudance.

If we are going off pure intuition, mine says that it makes no sense for millions of Jews to disappear without a trace from the German camp system during the war, with no evidence of their resettlement outside the camps.

Right. So they cared more about body weight than nationality of course. So when they ran out of Dutch jews for example, they would put a call across the Reich for some spare fat Jews to be sent over to keep the fire going.

There were plenty of camps were Jews weren't being killed or starved, and some Jews were always breaking the rules.
So they had an SS Judenfettjager, whose role it was to tour the camps and make a list of suitable Jews for those times that Auschwitz would run out of fat Jews.
One time for example, at Sachsenhausen, where the jew that assassinated a German diplomat pre war was being held, the SS Judenfettjager came to inspect this candidate but he in fact was too skinny, being a small thin young man. So the search moved on and the young man was allowed to avoid doing his duty for the Reich.

 

[History Speaks]

Right. So they cared more about body weight than nationality of course. So when they ran out of Dutch jews for example, they would put a call across the Reich for some spare fat Jews to be sent over to keep the fire going.

There were plenty of camps were Jews weren't being killed or starved, and some Jews were always breaking the rules.
So they had an SS Judenfettjager, whose role it was to tour the camps and make a list of suitable Jews for those times that Auschwitz would run out of fat Jews.
One time for example, at Sachsenhausen, where the jew that assassinated a German diplomat pre war was being held, the SS Judenfettjager came to inspect this candidate but he in fact was too skinny, being a small thin young man. So the search moved on and the young man was allowed to avoid doing his duty for the Reich.

I nonironically had expected more from you, loronzo, than stupid japes.

Lemmingwise - If you think what I have said about fuel being one source of energy rather than energy itself - or that an accurate and hardly flattering account of my (aborted) attempt to be a chem major, in response to repeated questions about how much I know about the subject - make me an LOL cow, I encourage you to circulate my statements online. But I am not going to go back and forth with insults tonight, sorry.

Obviously an engineer or chemist knows a lot more about this stuff than me. But I am not going to pretend that I do not know what I do in fact know, just to spare your feelings. And it is false to suggest fuel is the same as energy (and therefore that we can establish as a "law of physics" how much fuel is required to cremate corpses of x weight, just because we can establish how much energy we will need) when it is merely a source of energy.

 

[mrolonzo]

I nonironically had expected more from you, loronzo, than stupid japes.

Lemmingwise - If you think what I have said about fuel being one source of energy rather than energy itself - or that an accurate and hardly flattering account of my (aborted) attempt to be a chem major, in response to repeated questions about how much I know about the subject - make me an LOL cow, I encourage you to circulate my statements online. But I am not going to go back and forth with insults tonight, sorry.

Obviously an engineer or chemist knows a lot more about this stuff than me. But I am not going to pretend that I do not know what I do in fact know, just to spare your feelings. And it is false to suggest fuel is the same as energy (and therefore that we can establish as a "law of physics" how much fuel is required to cremate corpses of x weight, just because we can establish how much energy we will need) when it is merely a source of energy.

Ok. How about this. So they gas a bunch of Jews. And while the sonderkommados are wading into the piles of naked Jews occasionally they point out a nice fat jew that will do nicely for the fire.

"Halten Sie das beiseite" or 'keep that one aside!'.

Mostly they just point because they have gas masks on, or they don't depending which sonderlommando it is because some were automatically immune to zyklon b and could breathe eat and drink in it.

These fat Jews are put into a separate little pile for later.

 

[History Speaks]

Mostly they just point because they have gas masks on, or they don't depending which sonderlommando it is because some were automatically immune to zyklon b and could breathe eat and drink in it.

The ventilation systems in cremas II and III were sufficient to prevent off-gassing. The eyewitness accounts I have read about gas masks were used in cremas IV and V.

Why do you think there were orders for ventilation systems, HCN detectors, and gas-tight doors with peep holes for the buildings we say were gas chambers? Why are there still holes in the (demolished and dynamited) roof of crema II, or do you think the scholars who burrowed underneath the ruins and found them are lying?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Obviously an engineer or chemist knows a lot more about this stuff than me. But I am not going to pretend that I do not know what I do in fact know, just to spare your feelings. And it is false to suggest fuel is the same as energy (and therefore that we can establish as a "law of physics" how much fuel is required to cremate corpses of x weight, just because we can establish how much energy we will need) when it is merely a source of energy

Most of the time when people put their foot in their mouth, they notice it after one or two comments. But you just keep digging a bigger grave.

You don't have to spare my feelings, what you've given me in the last 24 hours is indescribable mirth. Just keep posting. This is some good shit.

 

[Shinzo Abe’s Ghost]

Revisionists are just holocaust deniers married to the motte-and-bailey fallacy. I have no idea what idiot thought that this thread was a good idea.

 

[Bonesjones]

The ventilation systems in cremas II and III were sufficient to prevent off-gassing. The eyewitness accounts I have read about gas masks were used in cremas IV and V.

Why do you think there were orders for ventilation systems, HCN detectors, and gas-tight doors with peep holes for the buildings we say were gas chambers? Why are there still holes in the (demolished and dynamited) roof of crema II, or do you think the scholars who burrowed underneath the ruins and found them are lying?

So now the smoke stacks didn't produce smoke? How revisionist of you.

Here's an analogy you can understand. Yesterday you went to the Olive Garden and got unlimited breadsticks, you say you ate 6 million of them. When we ask you to prove it, you show your recipe. When we say you could only eat approx 10,000 because that's all they normally have in the store. So you tell us it was delivery day, so they had more than normal. So we say ok that's still only 20,000 at best. So you tell us it's a special olive garden that has magic ovens that makes more breadsticks. At this point we just laugh at you because you are a fat retard. This is where you are now.

 

[mrolonzo]

The ventilation systems in cremas II and III were sufficient to prevent off-gassing. The eyewitness accounts I have read about gas masks were used in cremas IV and V.

Why do you think there were orders for ventilation systems, HCN detectors, and gas-tight doors with peep holes for the buildings we say were gas chambers? Why are there still holes in the (demolished and dynamited) roof of crema II, or do you think the scholars who burrowed underneath the ruins and found them are lying?

Are you getting this 'sufficient to prevent off gassing ' from someone ? Is it Pressac?

The gypsum is already on the floor and has been off gassing to kill ze juden mein fruend.

If off gassing is prevented there is no gassing and ze Jews vill live!

......

Well delousing was a big operation. In fact it was the main effort in the camp. Thus hcn. Ventilation gas tight doors peep holes.

As for scholars, this is the holocaust we're talking about here. So just leaping and saying 'oh but there were scholars!!!' Isn't going to cut it is it?

Revisionists are just holocaust deniers married to the motte-and-bailey fallacy. I have no idea what idiot thought that this thread was a good idea.

You're saying revisionists switch between general and specific claims? Which would those be? Did you think this through?

So now the smoke stacks didn't produce smoke? How revisionist of you.

Here's an analogy you can understand. Yesterday you went to the Olive Garden and got unlimited breadsticks, you say you ate 6 million of them. When we ask you to prove it, you show your recipe. When we say you could only eat approx 10,000 because that's all they normally have in the store. So you tell us it was delivery day, so they had more than normal. So we say ok that's still only 20,000 at best. So you tell us it's a special olive garden that has magic ovens that makes more breadsticks. At this point we just laugh at you because you are a fat retard. This is where you are now.

Then our breadstick fan says, oh but actually I ate 1.5 million here, then went to another store and ate 1.5 million, then went to another store further east and ate another 1.5 million, except the store in the east wasn't really a store, it was a breadstick farm so I ran around the field back and forth eating bread sticks I found.

And you're a retard for ever taking 6 million seriously. Don't you know it was 5.67 million breadsticks? Duh.

 

[Bonesjones]

Then our breadstick fan says, oh but actually I ate 1.5 million here, then went to another store and ate 1.5 million, then went to another store further east and ate another 1.5 million, except the store in the east wasn't really a store, it was a breadstick farm so I ran around the field back and forth eating bread sticks I found.

And you're a retard for ever taking 6 million seriously. Don't you know it was 5.67 million breadsticks? Duh.

Then when you ask where they got the money to buy breadsticks at 20 different stores and they only had half a tank of gas to get there, where did they get the supplies? They just cry and call you a monster.

 

[mrolonzo]

Then when you ask where they got the money to buy breadsticks at 20 different stores and they only had half a tank of gas to get there, where did they get the supplies? They just cry and call you a monster.

In fact when you ask where the money came from for all this breadstick buying then eating was, maybe even a bank account and a set aside breadstick budget followed by a purchasing plan they say they don't know but they have found a receipt for a box of crackers from the second store. That store's now gone. Doesn't exist, but our very hungry fellow tells us there are plenty of crumbs under the ground.

 

[CrentistMcMahon]

@History Speaks maybe try it like a Fermi problem? Just make up numbers for % body fat and % muscle of the emaciated 70lb victims. Make those percentages as absurdly large as you'd like. You'll then be able to look up estimates for enthalpy of combustion for both and use it to offset the energy requirements.
You said you were excellent at the theoretical aspects of chemistry, so basic multiplication and division shouldn't be a problem.
Once we have a more accurate formula that's not based _solely_ on enthalpy of vaporization of water, we can play with variables all day to get it more accurate.

 

[Stan]

Stan, you may be interested in a 1985 analysis by engineers Klaus and Christel Kunz. They describe how Topf's cremation technique - which dries out corpses through evaporation, utilizes the emission of fat from heavy corpses, is built to run continuously throughout the day, and so on - is highly fuel efficient. [...] I described this in more detail in a previous post but can try to dig up this paper if you are interested, hopefully there is an English version.

What language was it written in? If it's German I can give it a try.

Considering how this discussion started, it's not new information. Firewood is a type of fuel when discussing the energy needed and was mentioned specifically as an option.

The Nazis are exceptional in that when they began to lose the Eastern front, they actually started directing more trains of Jews and more resources necessary to kill them to the camps, not fewer. Rail shipments to KZs were prioritized ahead of replenishing the front, arming the military, and civilian stuff. It was as if Hitler and Co. realized they were on a deadline and needed to 'liquidate' as many Jewish lives as possible before the Soviet Army liberated their facilities to do so.

Another question for the thread: what is the real purpose of trying to minimize or deny the events of the Holocaust? Theories set in stubborn opposition to consistent historical documentation like this always have an ulterior motive. Is it anti-Semitism? Why are you mad at the internet because of the 6 million? If you deny this, how far up does it go? Do you deny the existence of Operation Reinhard? Do you pretend that Himmler didn't sign it? Would you say that Josef Mengele never happened? Are you going to tell me Mein Kampf is fake news?

 

[Bonesjones]

What language was it written in? If it's German I can give it a try.


The Nazis are exceptional in that when they began to lose the Eastern front, they actually started directing more trains of Jews and more resources necessary to kill them to the camps, not fewer. Rail shipments to KZs were prioritized ahead of replenishing the front, arming the military, and civilian stuff. It was as if Hitler and Co. realized they were on a deadline and needed to 'liquidate' as many Jewish lives as possible before the Soviet Army liberated their facilities to do so.

If you believe that then you are the exceptional one.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The Nazis are exceptional in that when they began to lose the Eastern front, they actually started directing more trains of Jews and more resources necessary to kill them to the camps, not fewer. Rail shipments to KZs were prioritized ahead of replenishing the front, arming the military, and civilian stuff. It was as if Hitler and Co. realized they were on a deadline and needed to 'liquidate' as many Jewish lives as possible before the Soviet Army liberated their facilities to do so.

Assuming what you say is true, I don't know how this is relevant to the discussion of how much energy and thus fuel it takes to burn bodies.

Btw, the effort post I mentioned is turning out to be quite some work and I hope to have it finished before friday.

 

[Stan]

Assuming what you say is true, I don't know how this is relevant to the discussion of how much energy and thus fuel it takes to burn bodies.

Btw, the effort post I mentioned is turning out to be quite some work and I hope to have it finished before friday.

What I mean to say is, that during the heavy logjams in 1942 and 1943, coal was diverted from the front to run the crematories.