George RR Martin, his fanboys, and former fanbase

[Lensherr]

I used to be a fan of GRRM and ASOIAF. I read all the books and started watching the show in high school, and kept up with the latter through college even as it declined in quality. I also naively believed that he would eventually finish the series.

At this point though, I really don't care. I have no desire to revisit the books that have been published, I'm not going to watch the spinoff show, and I'm resigned to the notion that he will never finish the series. If he does, great, but I won't be surprised if he doesn't. Because frankly, I don't think he cares anymore either. He has copious amounts of fuck you money, and seems more interested in side-projects than ASOIAF itself.

 

[Nobunaga]

@Safir kill yourself GRRM you fat fuck

 

[That Chris Guy]

Bad writers, of whom I consider Tolkien to be one, do not know what to do with their villains. Not a single one of the "evil" characters in LotR turns good and joins the heroes. Tolkien is just as if not more cynical than Gurm. There can never be peace, only extermination. Good can only kill. If you find yourself enchanted by beauty and grace, it's because someone wants to roofie and rob you.

I'm not sure how the decision to not make his villains play musical chairs with their allegiance qualifies him as a bad writer. When you make something to represent the epitomy of evil, and all of his creations are composed of the evil aspects of humanity, it's not surprising that they don't reconcile with the forces of good, nor are they meant to. Sauron having his power undermined by minions who go against him whenever they please detracts from how threatening the One Ring is supposed to be.

 

[Dom Cruise]

This is really the thing that sticks out with the flop of Game of Thrones in comparison to other shows. Sure, it may still be #1 in streaming (like there is ANY worthwhile competition on that front...) but there was SO MUCH of the show around all over the place, with so many good things being said, even during the shittier 5th and 6th seasons, just for all discussion to immediately evaporate the second the finale aired. The show's cultural impact turned to dust, there's not people making cosplays of the characters, there aren't people talking about it at the watercooler, there aren't any Youtubers making content about the show or the universe (unless it's to shit specifically on George)

I'm going to assume that every decade will have this phenomena now, some TV show that really hits it big but doesn't stick the landing because there's too much pressure and is then immediately forgotten once it ends.

And I will probably continue to ignore them because I don't like having my chain yanked like that.

 

[Kiwisee]

The rise and fall of GOT is a fascinating topic to me, and I’m glad we have a thread for it now.

Watching it go from being clamoured as one of the “greatest shows” to becoming culturally irrelevant in a matter of weeks was fun to witness in real time.

 

[The Great Chandler]

I'm not sure how the decision to not make his villains play musical chairs with their allegiance qualifies him as a bad writer. When you make something to represent the epitomy of evil, and all of his creations are composed of the evil aspects of humanity, it's not surprising that they don't reconcile with the forces of good, nor are they meant to. Sauron having his power undermined by minions who go against him whenever they please detracts from how threatening the One Ring is supposed to be.

Exactly! I'm not sure what @Safir was thinking here, but that isn't bad writing just because it doesn't fit our modern tastes, it's just different. It's clear that Tolkien was drawing from Iron Age myth to form his narrative with a slight Christian angle. It's nuanced in trying to understand the nature of evil itself and the struggle of good in the face of adversity, it's not meant to be nuanced in the sense were the villain is more characterized (though that isn't bad itself, just a different formula). Plus as one poster above mentioned, Tolkien could be pretty brutal in how he inflicts suffering on his characters.

 

[Open Window Maniac]

GoT sort of kinda opened my eyes to the fact that I just want to go back to the sincere optimistic cheese of the 90's and early 2000's in terms of entertainment. We've grown far too cynical for our own good. I'd rather stomach a corn-fest with its heart on its sleeve than any "de-construction" a bunch of lazy hacks shit out.

What you're describing reminds me of why I like shows like Happy Days or the Andy Griffith Show so much. They are so genuine and earnest that I get the warm fuzzies when I watch them. We need more earnestness in media nowadays. Not saying no media should be dark, but the nihilistic 3edgy5you mindset of media makes my eyes glaze over. If the people behind the production don't seem to care about what they're making, why should I?

To get back to Martin, he'll most likely go down in literary history as a massive hack. He published the first ASOIAF book in 1996, published the most recent one in 2011, and has two more allegedly in the pipeline. Someone born in 1996 would have been a high school sophomore in 2011. Today that high school sophomore has gotten their driver's license, completed their post-secondary education, and is a few years deep into a career. The fact that Martin couldn't finish his story during that window of time is a choke job more massive than he is.

 

[MadDisaster]

The best thing about GRRM is that people have stopped arguing with me when I tell them I won't read an unfinished series.

 

[nikma]

He looks like a fucking corpse in this new video HBO posted.

 

[Flaming Carrot]

The best thing about GRRM is that people have stopped arguing with me when I tell them I won't read an unfinished series.

I picked up the first book because I am a huge fan of George R.R. Martin's earlier work. I enjoyed the book, then decided I wasn't going to read anymore because I wanted to wait for him to finish the series. I'm glad I decided to stop, because I've forgotten almost everything about the first book and I'm not super invested in the series.

I don't think George R. R. Martin is hack. He wrote a lot of good short stories and a few good stand alone novels. But as far as I know he's never used an outline, and while you can write a story like "Sandkings" without an outline, you can't write a massive series of books with numerous characters by the seat of your pants. I wish there had been a way for him to make a lot of money doing what what he was good at instead of trying to write something he clearly had no idea how to finish.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

It doesn't help that GRRM probably has a thing against common folk. His peasants are either brain dead ignorant mongrels or naive innocents who can't fight back at all, at least from what it looks like. Probably either leftist bias or the cynical narrative that commoners are unable to advance the echelon or something.

One of my pet peeves is his portrayal of shepherds as pansies. It’s not a historical take at all. And that the Dothraki hate shepherds and shepherding. News flash… nomadic pastoralists, ie Mongols, Huns, Comanche, etc., were shepherds.

It also bugs me that the guy who was supposed to be hyper realistic sucked at scale, economics, and historical accuracy. He has a degree in journalism and it shows.

 

[TheHarbinger]

It also bugs me that the guy who was supposed to be hyper realistic sucked at scale, economics, and historical accuracy.

The show makes GRRM look militaristic in his emphasis on scale. Characters teleporting in Game of Thrones will always be hilarious. It was the writers and producers basically signalling to the audience that they had lost control over the plot and now characters will be appearing wherever is convenient for the plot in an instant. The characters were practically breaking the fourth wall when talking about their travels. Stuff like the dragons ballooning in size was another problem that the show just blitzed through with abandon. The dragons were small.......and now they are gigantic one season later. And you can wave away their growth because they are magic creatures which GRRM seems like he refuses to do in the books.

GRRM making this epic scale story was admirable. But he has failed in the execution because of his 'gardener' strategy of writing. And his legacy looks pathetic because of his immature attacks on other authors. Including absurd quips like "Aragorn's tax policy" that just make him look bitter and lost. Part of GRRM's legacy will be people examining and hopefully abandoning his style of story planning.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Bad writers, of whom I consider Tolkien to be one, do not know what to do with their villains. Not a single one of the "evil" characters in LotR turns good and joins the heroes. Tolkien is just as if not more cynical than Gurm. There can never be peace, only extermination. Good can only kill. If you find yourself enchanted by beauty and grace, it's because someone wants to roofie and rob you.

This is the Platonic ideal of wrong with regards to Tolkien. The point is that everyone is fallible, and can fall. Boromir, Gollum, and even Frodo at the end fell to the power of the Ring, with only Samwise staying strong enough to see the journey through to it's end. Even impossibly wise and pure beings like Gandalf and Galadriel can't resist in the end, and they knew it. That's not even the only source of corruption: Radagast fell away from his duty due to his love of nature, and Treebeard was decieved by Saruman's Voice. The entire sub plot of the Army of the Dead was traitors earning redemption by fulfilling the oaths they'd once abjured.

Also, the Fellowship hung out in Lothlorien for a month, they were so captivated by the beauty and peace of the place even in it's twilight. Sometimes beauty and good are just that.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

I'm a fan and this thread offends me.

JK, but it's true that I am somehow of a fan, just not the obsessive type. If the next two books are never released, that'd be a pity, but I won't sperg about it. If they are, better for me because I do want to finish the story.

I wonder how big or active the fanbase for his books is at the moment. Surely at this point it's a matter of it being a sunk cost and they've all invested too much time in waiting to turn back now.

Last time I knew of them, there was a big civil war between the fans of the books and the ones who wanted to enjoy the show for what it was. The book snobs tried to convince them that the show was garbage around season 4, and the tv fans revolted and abandoned the fandom, only for many of them eventually admitting the book snobs have been right all along saying that the show was not going to be good if they removed important characters and plots.

Besides that, the release of other books have kept them entertained as there are canon things to talk about and speculate.

Didn't he try to put down Lord of the Rings on the basis of "What is Aragorn's tax policy?"? He seems like a postmodernist redditor hack who basks in his own deconstructionist wit. He will never be a Tolkien.

To be fair, I don't think his intention was to put Rings or Tolkien down, rather than he didn't like that kind of fantasy and he wanted it a bit more "realistic" and including certain details that are redundant and unnecessary in the type of story that LotR is.

I can't believe there are people who think GRRM is superior to Tolkien because "OMG! You can't tell whose going to die next! NOONE IS SAFE!!" Completely ignoring the fact that he killed off Boromir, Theoden and Gollum.

I have a friend who thinks GRRM is superior to Tolkien because of the reasons I wrote above: he thinks he offers a more straight view of humanity that Tolkien. I don't agree with this opinion, but I understand what he meant. But yes, I've seen people trying to explain their preference of GRRM over JRRT giving that stupid argument of "but but but it's better bc gore and rape!!!" That and "D&D are better than Martin because the show doesn't go all over the place."

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

To be fair, I don't think his intention was to put Rings or Tolkien down, rather than he didn't like that kind of fantasy and he wanted it a bit more "realistic" and including certain details that are redundant and unnecessary in the type of story that LotR is.

Realistic deserves some extra quotation marks because a lot of characters and events in his stories are so ridiculous it's amazing how most of the characters are still alive. Also while Tolkien added a ton of environmental details to his book, the only extra details GRRM added is vile sex scenes and over indulgent details on food.

he thinks he offers a more straight view of humanity that Tolkien

This kind of thinking is really saddening. It's not like Tolkien's writing is all sunshine and rainbows, fallible humans exist, heck the whole plot originates from one. But in the end most men are united in with to fight for good. GRRM's humanity are almost entirely cynical and driven by self interest.
And Tolkien lived during the hardest times for humanity, while GRRM lived in the most prosperous times. It's very much "Hard create strong men" quote.

 

[Muttnik]

At the end of the day, Tolkien sought to create beauty, evoke adventure, offer a message of hope and unity, and celebrate the bonds of friendship that bring people together.

The only thing that Grrm makes me feel is very, very tired.

 

[Radola Gajda]

Realistic deserves some extra quotation marks because a lot of characters and events in his stories are so ridiculous it's amazing how most of the characters are still alive. Also while Tolkien added a ton of environmental details to his book, the only extra details GRRM added is vile sex scenes and over indulgent details on food.

This kind of thinking is really saddening. It's not like Tolkien's writing is all sunshine and rainbows, fallible humans exist, heck the whole plot originates from one. But in the end most men are united in with to fight for good. GRRM's humanity are almost entirely cynical and driven by self interest.
And Tolkien lived during the hardest times for humanity, while GRRM lived in the most prosperous times. It's very much "Hard create strong men" quote.

Well those who think Tolkien wrote just pure good vs evil stories didnt read Silmarillion.
There are 3 Kinslayings aka three times elves massacred other elves.
There are characters like Fëanor who leads his people to their doom and exile, because Melkor (Satan) Stole his shining rocks and killed his father.

Turín human antihero who even if he means well brings ruin to everyone around him.

 

[AnyballLecter]

So this is a Tolkien hugbox now? Go enjoy your new show with black hobbits who have Irish accents.

"If you don't think that Tolkien is the greatest writer there ever was when you are 13 then there's something wrong with you. If you still think that when you are 30, there is definitely something wrong with you."
- Terry Pratchett

 

[Flaming Insignias]

So this is a Tolkien hugbox now? Go enjoy your new show with black hobbits who have Irish accents.

"If you don't think that Tolkien is the greatest writer there ever was when you are 13 then there's something wrong with you. If you still think that when you are 30, there is definitely something wrong with you."
- Terry Pratchett

Do you see any of us happy about that mutative abortion of a show? We're not, and at least some of that is because we feel that it's oversexed and immature slop trying to monkey the worst aspects of GoT. The real question then is why you are bringing a hateboner for Tolkien to a thread about GRRM.

 

[That Chris Guy]

So this is a Tolkien hugbox now? Go enjoy your new show with black hobbits who have Irish accents.

"If you don't think that Tolkien is the greatest writer there ever was when you are 13 then there's something wrong with you. If you still think that when you are 30, there is definitely something wrong with you."
- Terry Pratchett

Never said that he is the greatest writer there ever was, merely that he is far and away from a bad one.

Still think he's better than Martin though. That guy is going to take his "gardening" to his grave at this rate.