What if your faith just died?

[The Great Chandler]

-Terry A. Davis (PBUH)

Even as a schizo, the man was full of wisdom. Become bird.

 

[Sexual Chocolate]

In Philip K Dick's novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, the popular Christ-type figure is a man called Mercer. He leads a religion based on empathy, and the androids (who hate empathy because they don't understand it) debunk him as a fraud:

“Is that why they claim you’re a fraud?”
“I am a fraud,” Mercer said. “They’re sincere; their research is sincere. From their standpoint I am an elderly retired bit player named Al Jarry. All of it, their disclosure, is true. They interviewed me at my home, as they claim; I told them whatever they wanted to know, which was everything.”
"Including about the whisky?”
Mercer smiled. “It was true. They did a good job and from their standpoint Buster
Friendly’s disclosure was convincing. They will have trouble understanding why nothing has changed. Because you’re still here and I’m still here.” Mercer indicated with a sweep of his hand the barren, rising hillside, the familiar place. “I lifted you from the tomb world just now and I will continue to lift you until you lose interest and want to quit. But you will have to stop searching for me because I will never stop searching for you.”

The creator of the universe doesn't need you to believe in him. But you do need to trust him, and try not worry too much about the small stuff. God is bigger than we can possibly imagine, and that's ok.

Take the Phil Pill, OP (but stay away from amitriptyline)

 

[BiggerChungus]

If the world conformed to and supported the Lord, His Son, and His sacrifice, and if your beliefs weren't challenged, something would be very wrong, with how malevolent and vile humanity and our culture is on the whole. Faith would not be faith without doubt. If I step out onto the stormy sea and see a solid stone block beneath my foot, how would it be faith to believe the Lord would keep me from sinking? I don't have to believe the stone's there, I don't have to have faith it'll hold up my foot, it's there and I can see it plainly. Especially with how awful the world's becoming, I've struggled with my faith too. Sometimes it's hard to believe anything good will happen when all you see anywhere and everywhere you look is evil. But the more I think about it, the more I think it shows just why faith is correct. We're sinful. Every bit of needless suffering, cruelty, and hatred in this world is caused directly by us. Humans inflicting atrocities on other humans. We're incapable of virtue in our own right, and it's only through the Lord that it can be found.

The world despises His word and despises Him. The centuries-long campaigns tirelessly seeking to corrupt and destroy and subvert the belief in Him and celebration of His creation stand as proof in and of themselves that there is deliberate, active evil at work in this existence, and if there is evil, there is also good - otherwise, what would evil be fighting against? And without evil, there could be no good either. I pray that despite the doubts and fears of this world, of my own life, of my faith, and of how society is progressing (or regressing) that I hold my faith, and that the Lord gives me the strength to see it through. We should remember that Yeshua doesn't tell us to join Him in a relaxing and pleasant journey to salvation, but to take up our crosses and carry our burdens. The life of the faithful is one of hardship and suffering, specifically because we're to reject the vapid "comforts" and corruptive escapes the world offers, but life itself, life in this world and among fellow imperfect people, is one of suffering. We can choose to wallow in the suffering and suffer alone, or we can choose to suffer but take the Lord's hand to escape it. There will be suffering either way, it's what we as humans have wrought on ourselves through wickedness and evil, but only one option has the suffering mean something, and it's in that suffering that we can feel the joy our existence was originally meant to have, and the connection to the Lord we were always meant to maintain as His children. He loves us, and His existence doesn't depend on anyone's belief or lack thereof.

I was raised a Baptist, then later became an agnostic, then I became an atheist, then a theist, and then finally a "Christian" - though I dislike the word, and don't think there's a proper way to describe it, nor do I fall in with any specific religious denomination. Rather, I see denominationalism as a concept of evil in and of itself, a way to divide and corrupt the inherent singular message. I came to believe Yeshua was the Son of God, the incarnation of Him, and that He died for our sins to be forgiven as the final sacrifice. I know what it's like to struggle with beliefs. It's tough and there's no easy answer. Ultimately, we don't know what is true. We can't ultimately know until we're dead, and maybe not even then, because that knowledge is far beyond any of our comprehensions. But if that doubt wasn't there, there would be no need for faith.

 

[EyeGuy]

אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה means to me that‎‎ a belief in God creates him. So I would simply believe again.

That's not what the verse in Exodus means in context, though. In any case, you can't force yourself to believe something that you don't believe.

To me, it seems like the OP is in a good place. Humanity has gradually developed a more and more sophisticated understanding of the physical world throughout time - why should our spiritual development be any different? Coming to a more universalistic and mature view of God is a positive thing:

Atheism emerges like a cry does from the force of pains, to redeem man from the pit of this foreign sorrow, to raise him up from the dimness of words and phrases to the light of the ideal and the emotional, until it takes its place in the center of morality. Atheism has the right of a temporary existence, because it is needed in order to purge the filth that clings to a faith absent of knowledge and of work. This is in actuality its entire destiny - to remove the particularistic forms from the intrinsic ideal of all life, the root of all thought. When this situation continues for a number of generations, atheism will of necessity attempt to uproot any trace of God and all the institutions of service to Him, but what end does divine providence intend for this uprooting? To purge the dross that only separates between man and true godly enlightenment, and on the ruined heights destroyed by atheism the exalted knowledge of God will build its palace.

If you're interested in reconciling faith with modernity, I'd recommend reading "The Great Partnership" by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks.

 

[Law]

Sounds like it's all part of God's plan.

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

I can understand being disheartened by the sense of increased tribalism within your congregation, and also with the church just shutting down on a whim. It must seem like the people there aren't especially concerned with upholding their beliefs, which might be true. The important thing to keep in mind, though, is that whatever your failings, and whatever the failings of your congregation, the Lord is perfectly dependable. Let yourself lean upon Him for support and comfort. Always keep in mind the great and wonderful things He has done in your life and the lives of others. Remember the love He has for you, in spite of your falling way. For His love is perfect and everlasting to those that seek Him. I know such emptiness will be difficult to overcome, as I've felt it at times too. But a reminder of God's love for me, in spite of my faithlessness, helped me to return to the rock of my salvation. Rather than remain within the turbulent seas of sin and doubt.

The advice of others here is good and worthy of being heeded, so I won't repeat much of what was said. Only that you should seek Him earnestly and honestly, and the seed that is your faith will bear fruit in its due season. I hope that you might rekindle that faith, in time.

 

[Mile High Club]

Nice thread, good discussions going on in here. Personally I'm agnostic, one of those "spiritual but not religious" types. I believe all things are connected in the sense that everything came from the same primordial soup and the passage of time exposes this by recycling materials over and over and over again. We live, we die, we're consumed by the Earth that then births parts of us again. It doesn't feel to me like there's any specific divine hand in it, but I have also had things in my life fall into place in ways that, to call it mere coincidence would feel... disingenuous. It was really meant to happen, patterned to work out. Life finds a way because it's been practicing doing so for billions of years?

I'll give my parents credit, they did try to raise me proper religious but I was an autist that couldn't scientifically agree with the story of Jonah and the whale in Sunday School and that's been the tone ever since. I don't buy in, but I also don't look down on other people who do anymore. They've lead different lives, seen different things, and from their perspective the shoe fits. Their faith alone is the proof they need and as much as I can't personally understand that, I can respect them.

After I got over my teenage euphoric atheism I realized learning about Jesus' teachings obviously helped me form my moral compass. I'm grateful for that. By all accounts he did seem to be someone that actually existed, ignoring the awkward Virgin Mary origin story lol. If God exists and he wants me to take it on faith or else burn in Hell, to me the guy sounds like a dick. There's a lot of conflicting ideas out there, how do I know which religion is right? It's a gamble. I'd rather focus on what I know to be true, which is that life is in me and around me regardless of how, and I want to experience that to the fullest while causing the least amount of pain.

OP, I feel for you and your crisis of faith. My mother told me recently that she's been having similar thoughts, which was a shock because she's never wavered before. In that conversation I said that ultimately spirituality is a deeply personal thing, and you have to let it be so. Organized religion can't check all your boxes for you, there's too many people involved for it to do that for everyone. It makes sense that you're recognizing that truth, and that it inspires apathy and doubt. But don't let a fear of loneliness (lack of reinforcement from your community) keep you from tuning in to the universe. It's absolutely talking to you, I promise. Damn thing won't shut the fuck up.

 

[Esau]

If God exists and he wants me to take it on faith or else burn in Hell, to me the guy sounds like a dick.

God sacrificed his only begotten Son so that we may reign eternally in paradise. He takes no pleasure in condemnation (Ezekiel 18:32). It's evident that he loves us and wishes all to be saved.

Faith justifies your salvation, and that's why it's so important. You cannot be justified before God by anything except your love and trust in His Word.

Unrepentant sinners simply cannot be included in the Salvation Plan, that's just not how it works. God is wholly good, the absence of God and good cannot also be with God.

Nice thread, good discussions going on in here. Personally I'm agnostic, one of those "spiritual but not religious" types. I believe all things are connected in the sense that everything came from the same primordial soup and the passage of time exposes this by recycling materials over and over and over again. We live, we die, we're consumed by the Earth that then births parts of us again. It doesn't feel to me like there's any specific divine hand in it, but I have also had things in my life fall into place in ways that, to call it mere coincidence would feel... disingenuous. It was really meant to happen, patterned to work out. Life finds a way because it's been practicing doing so for billions of years?

I'll give my parents credit, they did try to raise me proper religious but I was an autist that couldn't scientifically agree with the story of Jonah and the whale in Sunday School and that's been the tone ever since. I don't buy in, but I also don't look down on other people who do anymore. They've lead different lives, seen different things, and from their perspective the shoe fits. Their faith alone is the proof they need and as much as I can't personally understand that, I can respect them.

OP, I feel for you and your crisis of faith. My mother told me recently that she's been having similar thoughts, which was a shock because she's never wavered before. In that conversation I said that ultimately spirituality is a deeply personal thing, and you have to let it be so. Organized religion can't check all your boxes for you, there's too many people involved for it to do that for everyone. It makes sense that you're recognizing that truth, and that it inspires apathy and doubt. But don't let a fear of loneliness (lack of reinforcement from your community) keep you from tuning in to the universe. It's absolutely talking to you, I promise. Damn thing won't shut the fuck up.

This type of faith is undisciplined. "A faith that gives nothing, costs nothing, takes nothing is worth nothing."

Even Buddist monks operate within an organised religion, with various liturgical traditions and rites.

It's like you want the benefits of belief, without any of the baggage; that there is a divine force within everything, but doesn't require you to have moral fortitude or to do anything. Or to believe that someone rose bodily from the dead.

 

[Larry David's Opera Cape]

God sacrificed his only begotten Son so that we may reign eternally in paradise. He takes no pleasure in condemnation (Ezekiel 18:32). It's evident that he loves us and wishes all to be saved.

Faith justifies your salvation, and that's why it's so important. You cannot be justified before God by anything except your love and trust in His Word.

Unrepentant sinners simply cannot be included in the Salvation Plan, that's just not how it works. God is wholly good, the absence of God and good cannot also be with God.



This type of faith is undisciplined. "A faith that gives nothing, costs nothing, takes nothing is worth nothing."

Even Buddist monks operate within an organised religion, with various liturgical traditions and rites.

It's like you want the benefits of belief, without any of the baggage; that there is a divine force within everything, but doesn't require you to have moral fortitude or to do anything. Or to believe that someone rose bodily from the dead.

My eyes glaze over when I see this crap.

Yes it's all technically correct by the standards of your theological rubric. But it all rings false because it shows the seams and zippers of an artificially constructed cope. It sounds hollow because it exists within a theoretical vacuum, not accounting in a realistic way for how humans actually work.

It's not convincing to anyone struggling at all with anything. Maybe it's meaningful to you but it's not going to move or convince anyone who wasn't already in a mood to be persuaded.

I'm tired of being yelled at by people who have the right words but who blank out and fuck off when you try to talk to them about real shit.

 

[Esau]

My eyes glaze over when I see this crap.

Yes it's all technically correct by the standards of your theological rubric. But it all rings false because it shows the seams and zippers of an artificially constructed cope. It sounds hollow because it exists within a theoretical vacuum, not accounting in a realistic way for how humans actually work.

It's not convincing to anyone struggling at all with anything. Maybe it's meaningful to you but it's not going to move or convince anyone who wasn't already in a mood to be persuaded.

I'm tired of being yelled at by people who have the right words but who blank out and fuck off when you try to talk to them about real shit.

But I wasn't talking to you.

Regarding faith, this is what I'd say to someone who is struggling:

Seek God, and you shall find God. He will not, and cannot ever stop labouring for your sake.

 

[Mile High Club]

His Word.

Whose word? The word of the human beings that wrote it all down? Which versions? What about the books that were struck from the record by a council? Aren't those also divinely inspired?

Unrepentant sinners simply cannot be included in the Salvation Plan, that's just not how it works. God is wholly good, the absence of God and good cannot also be with God.

Are the only options to be either a sinner or a believer? What about the people who have never heard of your specific faith, are they just born doomed?

"A faith that gives nothing, costs nothing, takes nothing is worth nothing."

A morality defined by the fear of hellfire is what's worth nothing. I don't need punishment from a sky daddy to stop me from doing wrong to my fellow man or inspire me to improve my community. It's called empathy.

There's an interesting lesson taught in Hasidic literature about "why God created atheists" that's relevant here.

It's like you want the benefits of belief,

Which are? I have a community and an understanding of the world, those are benefits without faith in God and I'm happy with them. I've not wanted for anything else. You've made a few assumptions like this in your argument but they're not accurate, and it'd serve you better to ask questions instead of preaching blanket statements.

Or to believe that someone rose bodily from the dead.

Like this one for example, I never said Jesus didn't succumb to and then revive from his wounds. People are declared medically dead and then wake up the next day often enough these days and I'm willing to believe it happened back then. It fits with the reality we all share.

Frankly, I don't know why you bothered to respond to my post in particular. You've said almost nothing that couldn't be said on its own and make more sense. Is this your attempt at a conversion? It leaves a lot to be desired.

It sounds hollow because it exists within a theoretical vacuum, not accounting in a realistic way for how humans actually work.

These types aren't really worth the time because they're poisoned by their own faith, bitter and disconnected from the world at large. They think they were smart enough to pick the right God while thousands of others are just red herrings. That's where the condescension comes from. It's a shame, blowhard circular logic is genuinely boring and turns people off from faith.

 

[Larry David's Opera Cape]

Whose word? The word of the human beings that wrote it all down? Which versions? What about the books that were struck from the record by a council? Aren't those also divinely inspired?

Are the only options to be either a sinner or a believer? What about the people who have never heard of your specific faith, are they just born doomed?

A morality defined by the fear of hellfire is what's worth nothing. I don't need punishment from a sky daddy to stop me from doing wrong to my fellow man or inspire me to improve my community. It's called empathy.

There's an interesting lesson taught in Hasidic literature about "why God created atheists" that's relevant here.

Which are? I have a community and an understanding of the world, those are benefits without faith in God and I'm happy with them. I've not wanted for anything else. You've made a few assumptions like this in your argument but they're not accurate, and it'd serve you better to ask questions instead of preaching blanket statements.

Like this one for example, I never said Jesus didn't succumb to and then revive from his wounds. People are declared medically dead and then wake up the next day often enough these days and I'm willing to believe it happened back then. It fits with the reality we all share.

Frankly, I don't know why you bothered to respond to my post in particular. You've said almost nothing that couldn't be said on its own and make more sense. Is this your attempt at a conversion? It leaves a lot to be desired.

These types aren't really worth the time because they're poisoned by their own faith, bitter and disconnected from the world at large. They think they were smart enough to pick the right God while thousands of others are just red herrings. That's where the condescension comes from. It's a shame, blowhard circular logic is genuinely boring and turns people off from faith.

Is this the story you mean?

Why Did God Create Atheists?

There is a famous story told in Hasidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson. One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say ‘I will help you.'” If there is redemption in religion, I believe it is when people come to understand this story.

~Tales of Hasidim vol. 2

Martin Buber is someone I haven't revisited in a long, long time. I had a groovy hippie teacher in high school who gave me a bunch of books, including some Buber, because he saw I was "interested in exploring spirituality." He was goofy like hippies are but a good-hearted man. And not Jewish, interestingly, just really into Martin Buber. Might be worth picking those books up again for a re-read.

My religious tradition can get very suffocating with fear of heresy. I recognize the attitude of the poster you quoted all too well. I was surrounded by it and felt somewhat imprisoned by it. Need to open a window. I don't believe God throws people in the garbage eternally because we read wrongthink. God is not a feminist sjw professor.

 

[Esau]

Whose word? The word of the human beings that wrote it all down? Which versions? What about the books that were struck from the record by a council? Aren't those also divinely inspired?

His singular Word, written by His prophets. The Luther Bibel, Vulgate and the King James Version are all pretty good translations. Those books weren't divinely inspired because they weren't written by Christ's anointed apostles.

Are the only options to be either a sinner or a believer? What about the people who have never heard of your specific faith, are they just born doomed?

Believers are sinners, just as much as unbelievers. For salvation, belief is absolutely necessary. No, they won't die just because they were not able to hear the name of Christ. They'll reap what they sew, righteous or otherwise. Ambrose said that the Gospel was subtly emphasized within the works of the Platonists. Which is to say: anyone can find God.

A morality defined by the fear of hellfire is what's worth nothing. I don't need punishment from a sky daddy to stop me from doing wrong to my fellow man or inspire me to improve my community. It's called empathy.

There's an interesting lesson taught in Hasidic literature about "why God created atheists" that's relevant here.

Our morality is not defined by fear. It is defined by guilt and remorse. We bear our souls to God and not our bodies. If we willed in our hearts to commit evil, but were imburdened, we have sinned. We must grieve over our trespasses truly and sincere, not fear that our Heavenly Father will hurt us for sinning. That is not the relationship between man and God, that is a relationship between a master and his servant.

Without God, morality is void and worthless.

Which are? I have a community and an understanding of the world, those are benefits without faith in God and I'm happy with them. I've not wanted for anything else. You've made a few assumptions like this in your argument but they're not accurate, and it'd serve you better to ask questions instead of preaching blanket statements.

The comfort of knowing that there is a substance which transgresses our world and fills all creatures. That your existence is meaningful, and that you have something to hope for.

Like this one for example, I never said Jesus didn't succumb to and then revive from his wounds. People are declared medically dead and then wake up the next day often enough these days and I'm willing to believe it happened back then. It fits with the reality we all share.

Frankly, I don't know why you bothered to respond to my post in particular. You've said almost nothing that couldn't be said on its own and make more sense. Is this your attempt at a conversion? It leaves a lot to be desired.

I chose the Bodily Resurrection one because it's central doctrine that we all doubt. My response was motivated at answering misconceptions.

 

[Larry David's Opera Cape]

But I wasn't talking to you.

Regarding faith, this is what I'd say to someone who is struggling:

Seek God, and you shall find God. He will not, and cannot ever stop labouring for your sake.

What do you mean you weren't talking to me? I started the thread and you're posting in it. Odd.

His singular Word, written by His prophets. The Luther Bibel, Vulgate and the King James Version are all pretty good translations. Those books weren't divinely inspired because they weren't written by Christ's anointed apostles.

What makes them good translations, specifically?

Believers are sinners, just as much as unbelievers. For salvation, belief is absolutely necessary. No, they won't die just because they were not able to hear the name of Christ. They'll reap what they sew, righteous or otherwise. Ambrose said that the Gospel was subtly emphasized within the works of the Platonists. Which is to say: anyone can find God.

So are the Platonists saved? If they are saved, why not any secular person today who is trying to be decent but can't find it in themselves to accept the doctrine of whatever branch of Protestantism you uphold?

Our morality is not defined by fear. It is defined by guilt and remorse. We bear our souls to God and not our bodies. If we willed in our hearts to commit evil, but were imburdened, we have sinned. We must grieve over our trespasses truly and sincere, not fear that our Heavenly Father will hurt us for sinning. That is not the relationship between man and God, that is a relationship between a master and his servant.

Without God, morality is void and worthless.

I have met a lot of people who are defined by guilt and remorse and they tend to be not only miserable, but difficult to be around. They are not driven to do good and help others, they are driven to compulsive behavior and moodiness.

 

[Esau]

What do you mean you weren't talking to me? I started the thread and you're posting in it. Odd.

I was replying to someone else. Sorry for the confusion.

What makes them good translations, specifically?

They are good for devotional and liturgical use. Namely, they all have a really good Psalter.

So are the Platonists saved? If they are saved, why not any secular person today who is trying to be decent but can't find it in themselves to accept the doctrine of whatever branch of Protestantism you uphold?

Maybe, only God knows. Secular individuals cannot be saved, because it completely invalidates Christ's sacrifice. We are thoroughly corrupted and cannot possibly be deemed righteous through our own works. We are saved through Christ alone by Grace alone. To suppose that anyone could be deemed righteous by upholding the law of man, and not the law of faith, is not proper doctrine. That is what makes Christianity unique.

I have met a lot of people who are defined by guilt and remorse and they tend to be not only miserable, but difficult to be around. They are not driven to do good and help others, they are driven to compulsive behavior and moodiness.

We are in the time of faith and, we shouldn't be concerned with ourselves. That is the essence of humility, and that is how we draw ourselves to God. Our remorse, guilt should be absolutely unconcerned with ourselves and drawn towards God in all acts.

Eckhart said that there were two kinds of remorse. The first being absolutely useless, that only estranges us further and further from God. i.e. "God has forsaken me - these sins of mine are unforgivable." and the latter being: "Yes, I know I deserve perfect torment for these sins of mine. And I do labour to wish for further suffering, God has taken away my sin and I am no longer enslaved to it. Now, all I must do, is rejoice in my true life."

 

[Ingmar Aspergman]

I lost my faith right before the pandemic and I still haven’t disclosed it to my parents or extended family

 

[A-Stump]

If God exists they likely don't give two fucks if you worship or think about them. If they did they could illustrate it quite clearly and not through some texts by desert niggers thousands of years ago.

 

[The Bronze Golem]

I was not raised in any religious environment. My mother was raised Roman Catholic, but she didn't maintain those beliefs into her adulthood. My father on the other hand, grew up in a country where atheism was actively encouraged, and as such he has zero cultural connection to Christianity, or any religion for that matter.

When I was a child, since around the age of 5, I had a very deep and pervasive fear of death, and being unconscious forever, to the point of crying and panic attacks. Many other children in school, who were raised in Christian environments, would tell me about things in the bible. Of course, they were just children, so most of it was disjointed and probably misinterpreted. Hearing those things had a very deep effect on me, and being afraid of death so deeply, I always thought to myself "There has to be a heaven right?" Although I had a very primitive, and basic idea of Christianity. I didn't know anything about sin, rapture, or how and why Jesus was said to have died for us. I didn't have a bible or even really read any books, I just kind of heard the stories other children told me.

Then when I was in my late teens, I started looking more into Christianity, I wanted to believe those things out of fear that my life was worthless. I wanted to have some purpose right? We all do I think. But the more you really read into the Bible, the more you realize that none of it was really intended to be taken literally. It was just supposed to make you think. To inspire thoughts in you. It's been so heavily morphed and contorted over the past 2 millennia anyway.

I was always interested in evolution and biology. However just recently over the past two years, I became more interested in those things than I ever have been. Learning more and more about the world around me, was sort of the final nail in the coffin for my beliefs. Of course, I am still afraid of dying, but nowhere near to the level as a child.

TL-DR: I never believed in God because I actually wanted to believe in God, It was all just one big fat cope because I was terrified of dying.

 

[Sparkling Yuzu]

Imagine having an existential crisis over one little needle. Absolute faggotry.

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

If God exists they likely don't give two fucks if you worship or think about them. If they did they could illustrate it quite clearly and not through some texts by desert niggers thousands of years ago.

What would be clear enough, that you would believe? Christ's disciples questioned why He taught in parables, rather than in plain language. The answer was that though people would listen to Him, they would not and could not comprehend what He was saying. For the people were deaf and dumb to divine truths, and thus a different method of instruction needed to be used. One that would make them stop and think about what was said and what it meant. Not to mention, a divine example is best shown, rather than talked about.