Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

[Kill Your Idols]

I keep hearing this but I have no clue how it even happens. How does any grown-ass adult end up in a position where they don't have a social circle of friends that keep inviting them to get-togethers, parties, weddings (Jesus christ so many weddings) and other assorted events on the regular? I'm actively trying to be a recluse most days and I still find myself dragged into way too many things by annoying and lovable friends/family/acquaintances.

Legit asking, how do people end up with none of that by their mid-20s/30s/40s? I just don't see it, but at the same time there's enough people bitching online about it that it has to be a thing, at least on some level. But how? Are you people actively burning bridges and making pariahs of yourselves?

It's not necessarily the lack of social activity, it's about what you do during that social activity. If you're an introvert who doesn't particularly enjoy crowds and never prioritized dating, you're not exactly hanging out with people who will invite you to the social situations where you would meet other people. I talk with friends regularly and we go out when we can, but we usually take this time to focus on a core group of friends where everyone knows each other rather than huge events with opportunities for small talking strangers. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent, but since my friend group is content with each other, it's great for building long-term trust and reliance but bad for branching out. I know the "solution" is to diversify and meet new people, but I think other users have covered why this isn't always so easy in adult life, especially for niche hobbyists.

Look up John Anthony Lifestyle on YouTube, he's the only PUA who's been able to help low-looks incels

It's cool that he was able to work for you, but I don't see anything that he's offering that differs from other PUA. I understand why these methods work, but playing the numbers game is unfulfilling to me and it doesn't help if you're apathetic to most women in the first place.

___

I've been thinking about this topic a lot since my last post and since then, I've dropped every dating app I was on and have pretty much resigned to the fact that I'm an unrelatable weirdo to the majority of women. I thought this would be more depressing, but I'm surprised that I'm just happier since I stopped caring. I've refocused my efforts back to the skills and hobbies I actually enjoy doing and I think it's better to be content with what I have rather than try to chase after some relationship I'm not even sure will pan out to anything meaningful. Call it complacency, but nothing about the dating "game" was fun or interesting to me. I don't think I can ever truly escape the thought that I should at least attempt to be in a relationship, because to a certain extent it's a biological impulse, but the fixation on it only made me miserable. I don't regret trying, but life's too short to waste on shit that's not having a positive impact on my life.

 

[Stan]

Incels are frustrated young men who have women confused with vending machines. They seem to think girls need some set inputs and then they put out. Chris Chan used to think (maybe still thinks) that on the sex on the 3rd date is all but inevitable.

An incel also has some really bizarre ideas about what his peers are doing. They think everyone else in their class lost their virginity in 9th grade, and that college was a sex-fueled bacchanal for everyone but them. Sex to them is a self-evident good, even though sex can be unpleasant or open one up to getting their heart broken if it’s done carelessly.

Incels idolize Eliot Rodger the crazy idiot who shot 8 random people in Isla Vista; crazy ER anecdotes from his manifesto/memoir follow:

Spoiler: The apocrypha of Eliot Rodger

A few months before the end of his life, ER made a last ditch attempt at attracting a girl by trying to become a millionaire. On at least two occasions he would get in his BMW and drive from CA to NV to AZ to NM, buying dozens of lotto tickets in each state. He would then call his mom, inconsolable because he lost the Powerball.

ER was invited to the premiere of The Hunger Games (his dad was part of production crew.) ER’s thought the actor who played Peeta Mellark actually got to bang Jennifer Lawrence and spent the party seething that he wasn’t cast in the role instead.

ER once went to the beach and was so enraged by a nearby couple he tossed his vanilla latte on them. He came back to that same beach weeks later with a Super Soaker filled with orange juice and sprayed it on every young couple he could find. He would have repeated the feat but his water gun got clogged up with sugar.

ER called the sheriff on his roommate for burning his scented candles.

ER’s day of retribution plan at one point called for him to execute his entire family, including his stepmom and baby half-sister.

Tl:dr; it’s about ethics in personality disorders

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

in reference to mention of declining friendship rates, I don’t disagree with the general idea, but is it possible there may be something to do with people defining friendships differently?

Some people have dozens of friends but it seems like what they call a friend is literally anybody whose name they know while other people are real selective and only call somebody a friend if they’re what others would call a close friend.

To me a close friend is something like somebody I’d hang out with at least once a month (more like twice) on average without it being necessarily based around some activity or third party. And a casual friend is somebody I may occasionally do something with but don’t have that expectation of interacting regularly with.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

It's not necessarily the lack of social activity, it's about what you do during that social activity. If you're an introvert who doesn't particularly enjoy crowds and never prioritized dating, you're not exactly hanging out with people who will invite you to the social situations where you would meet other people. I talk with friends regularly and we go out when we can, but we usually take this time to focus on a core group of friends where everyone knows each other rather than huge events with opportunities for small talking strangers. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent, but since my friend group is content with each other, it's great for building long-term trust and reliance but bad for branching out. I know the "solution" is to diversify and meet new people, but I think other users have covered why this isn't always so easy in adult life, especially for niche hobbyists.

It's cool that he was able to work for you, but I don't see anything that he's offering that differs from other PUA. I understand why these methods work, but playing the numbers game is unfulfilling to me and it doesn't help if you're apathetic to most women in the first place.

___

I've been thinking about this topic a lot since my last post and since then, I've dropped every dating app I was on and have pretty much resigned to the fact that I'm an unrelatable weirdo to the majority of women. I thought this would be more depressing, but I'm surprised that I'm just happier since I stopped caring. I've refocused my efforts back to the skills and hobbies I actually enjoy doing and I think it's better to be content with what I have rather than try to chase after some relationship I'm not even sure will pan out to anything meaningful. Call it complacency, but nothing about the dating "game" was fun or interesting to me. I don't think I can ever truly escape the thought that I should at least attempt to be in a relationship, because to a certain extent it's a biological impulse, but the fixation on it only made me miserable. I don't regret trying, but life's too short to waste on shit that's not having a positive impact on my life.

If some faggot nerd is friends with a bunch of other faggot nerds then it won’t do anything to get them the rockstar lifestyle.

Your social life sounds like mine back home, something j realized at one point was that my friends would have parties with me and their other friends, but they didn’t call them parties, if that makes sense? Like if a bunch of people are hanging out that’s a party, but they didn’t throw parties. Sounds like semantics but there’s something to the difference in view. Much more fun than actual “parties” I’ve been to.

Being friends with a social butterfly doesn’t automatically make you better off, though, either.

 

[AlexGustavoPhilipe]

It's not necessarily the lack of social activity, it's about what you do during that social activity. If you're an introvert who doesn't particularly enjoy crowds and never prioritized dating, you're not exactly hanging out with people who will invite you to the social situations where you would meet other people. I talk with friends regularly and we go out when we can, but we usually take this time to focus on a core group of friends where everyone knows each other rather than huge events with opportunities for small talking strangers. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent, but since my friend group is content with each other, it's great for building long-term trust and reliance but bad for branching out. I know the "solution" is to diversify and meet new people, but I think other users have covered why this isn't always so easy in adult life, especially for niche hobbyists.

It's cool that he was able to work for you, but I don't see anything that he's offering that differs from other PUA. I understand why these methods work, but playing the numbers game is unfulfilling to me and it doesn't help if you're apathetic to most women in the first place.

___

I've been thinking about this topic a lot since my last post and since then, I've dropped every dating app I was on and have pretty much resigned to the fact that I'm an unrelatable weirdo to the majority of women. I thought this would be more depressing, but I'm surprised that I'm just happier since I stopped caring. I've refocused my efforts back to the skills and hobbies I actually enjoy doing and I think it's better to be content with what I have rather than try to chase after some relationship I'm not even sure will pan out to anything meaningful. Call it complacency, but nothing about the dating "game" was fun or interesting to me. I don't think I can ever truly escape the thought that I should at least attempt to be in a relationship, because to a certain extent it's a biological impulse, but the fixation on it only made me miserable. I don't regret trying, but life's too short to waste on shit that's not having a positive impact on my life.

Look man, as far as procceses go I'm only concerned with ones that work. The difference between john anthonys shit and other puas is small to the untrained eye, but to me the difference is conceptually light years apart.

From my POV it definitely works, even for ugly/short/socially retarded kiwifarmers, just depends whethrr u wanna try or lay down and rot like the incels say.

From the way ur talking it sounds like you're unsatisfied, whether u choose to hold onto a glimmer of hope and take the leap of faith is ur call.

 

[Kujo Jotaro]

There's probably 4 or 5 separate problems that would be minor on their own that lead to the "incel" crisis.

The unifying factor being the atomization of the individual. In some respects individuation is paramount, in others it is a corrupting influence that leaves a man barren and empty, even his soul perishes.

When there's no communal activity to partake in that isn't drug abuse it's no wonder that those who aren't the most socially inclined (men) find themselves isolated. If you don't want to get drunk your options are incredibly limited, and your recourse is trying to find people who have similar interests to yourself in semi social gatherings, but if we're being honest that's a way to make acquaintances, not genuine friends.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The weirdest thing to me is that I've never met a woman that understands what an incel is.

It's such a simple concept.

It's fascinating how women can be simultaneously so oblivious and also the gatekeepers of sex, so that it results in a legion of low status men that are completely invisible even to the dirtiest of slags.

 

[Dreamer]

The weirdest thing to me is that I've never met a woman that understands what an incel is.

It's such a simple concept.

It's fascinating how women can be simultaneously so oblivious and also the gatekeepers of sex, so that it results in a legion of low status men that are completely invisible even to the dirtiest of slags.

Isn't it crazy how your anecdotal evidence fits your preconcieved worldview?
Or could it simply be that normal people don't know a whole lot about terminally online outcasts and their problems?

 

[Kermit Jizz]

The weirdest thing to me is that I've never met a woman that understands what an incel is.

It's such a simple concept.

It's fascinating how women can be simultaneously so oblivious and also the gatekeepers of sex, so that it results in a legion of low status men that are completely invisible even to the dirtiest of slags.

It's not just incels, women don't understand men in any capacity. You see it whenever those stories about FtM troons getting a reality check that no one automatically gives a fuck about you as a man (double so since they're manlets lol). They haven't the slightest clue what a man's daily life is like, because they don't have to.

 

[Puff]

It's not just incels, women don't understand men in any capacity. You see it whenever those stories about FtM troons getting a reality check that no one automatically gives a fuck about you as a man (double so since they're manlets lol). They haven't the slightest clue what a man's daily life is like, because they don't have to.

Probably goes both ways, tbf. Men and women don't seem to understand each other too well. It's not really a new problem either, but is probably part of why nothing is getting solved lately.

 

[Kermit Jizz]

Probably goes both ways, tbf. Men and women don't seem to understand each other too well. It's not really a new problem either, but is probably part of why nothing is getting solved lately.

It's definitely true to an extent both ways, but anecdotally I've seen a decent chunk of men who understand woman well enough. On the other hand I can't think of a single woman who understands men on more than a superficial level. I think this is inherently true even in a healthy society, since men are the ones who have to impress. We've got to know what women think at least a little, just enough to get laid at least. Women don't have to give a single fuck about how men tick ever, doubly so since we live in a broken id-pol laden culture that actively caricatures men as demons. For a woman to understand men today they both have to desire to for no tangible benefit and actively deprogram their brainwashing, so basically none of them will.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Probably goes both ways, tbf. Men and women don't seem to understand each other too well. It's not really a new problem either, but is probably part of why nothing is getting solved lately.

I think people find symmetry in these type of things appealing, but I think it always results in a paradigm that is less accurate than it could be. You can't pretend like things are always a mirror image.

And in this case, though even the brightest women I've met, none have had an understanding past the superficial of men. And though a large proportion of men seemed to have a poor understanding of women, a small minority of men actually do seem to understand women to a reasonable degree.

Maybe the actual number is higher, because they always seem to get attacked for it by women and men alike.

 

[Puff]

I think people find symmetry in these type of things appealing, but I think it always results in a paradigm that is less accurate than it could be. You can't pretend like things are always a mirror image.

And in this case, though even the brightest women I've met, none have had an understanding past the superficial of men. And though a large proportion of men seemed to have a poor understanding of women, a small minority of men actually do seem to understand women to a reasonable degree.

Maybe the actual number is higher, because they always seem to get attacked for it by women and men alike.

Women who understand men have to be SOMEWHERE. Maybe.

 

[Esau]

Women are Idols to incels. God allows them suffer misfortune because they deliberately choose to seek things which are not God. And this absence of God is base suffering.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Men giving up on women were called MGTOW. I ran into some of the early MGTOW types on YouTube in the late 2000's. Back then they were true MGTOW. They were men that were done screwing with women, and they decided to go their own way. Most of these guys were just the types who picked shitty women. They couldn't have that 9/10 or 10/10 crazy bitch who was highly sexual usually not just with them, so they had a little tantrum and decided they were done with women. That's fine. The thing they didn't do was sit around and bitch about women all day like a bunch of whiny faggots. They would make videos about being single was more fun in some cases. Talk about all the money they save and stuff they could afford with the woman out of their lives. But sitting around bitching about women incessantly is not something they did.

This kind of changed when these incel types showed up. I think some started calling themselves MGTOW as well. They sit around bitching and complaining about women all day. They sound like male versions of those women who sit around and bitch and complain about men. You know the types. All men are pigs all men are lazy all men cheat they are all no good. It's not because I decided to spend my time screwing around with shitbags.

The thing is men shouldn't act like those women. Men don't do that. We insult and laugh at those women. We don't act like them. If you are a man and you engage in that type of behavior all you are doing is making other men look as bad as you.

This is the truth about incels. Most of them are just socially retarded loser types. They might have other problems as well like poor hygiene strange behavior and so on. The point is their sexless life is all their fault. But they like to blame other things like feminism Jews and women. These loser weirdos started showing up around the time the alt-right was dying. I don't remember seeing incels in 2015 2016 or 2017. I started seeing the incel shit in 2018.

There is no such thing as an incel. If you aren't getting laid it's your fault. It's not women's fault or anything else. It all on you. If you won't do any self-improvement to help you attract the opposite sex that is your fault. No, I do not mean spending time in a gym like some kind of faggot. That most likely won't help you. The internet is full of guys who did that shit and never got attention from women. Work on your hygiene, social skills and so on. Hygiene and social skills will do more than working out. Brush your teeth wash your ass shave and learn how to talk to women.

There are millions of women out there and if you can't find one that will sleep with then that's all on you. Like I said incels don't exist. It's not involuntary.

I see these incel losers and I know the kind of guys I see women with and all I can think is how fucked up these incel guys are. You see women walking around with these knuckle dragging morons that if they are lucky, they might grunt out a few words and it will never be a complete sentence. But you got these guys online bitching about how they can't get laid.

Incels: All women are sluts these days guyz

Also

incels: I can't get laid boo hoo forever alone meme.

Wait I thought all women were sluts now? You still can't get laid? This doesn't make any sense.

I can remember this time period on the internet as well, even /r9k/, wizardchan, etc and when the term "incel" started to be used.

There was a lot of division in these online circles back then, but you could seemingly tell that there was a shift in userbase around the mid 2010s. A lot of these "pre-MGTOW" communities , before identifying themselves as such, or as incels, seemed not to focus on women at all. They're not having sex, whats the point in talking about sex or how they want it 24/7?

When the term "incel" started to emerge, I can recall huge debates around it and "volcel" and what either entailed- with most people saying that incel was a stupid concept, similar in part to what you are saying, or also pointing out that a 90 year old parapalegic is an incel, the term is a meaningless congate.

The biggest thing seemed to be that newly emerging "incel" culture online was more akin to crab culture, bitter young men who felt entitled to sex, but were unable to get it and instead largely blamed external factors instead of internal ones they could change, or when there were internal ones they couldnt change "seethed" at the injustice of that (and by internal ones you cant change, it was shit like being legitimately physically handicapped). Very much different to men who wern't getting it, stopped really caring, didnt constantly bring it up 24/7, and were just focusing on their own shit. An incels hobby is literally complaining about the sex that they are not getting and doing nothing about it, masturbation, and video games.

I really do miss when the men less interested in romance, aces, incels, mgtow or whatever were not obsessed with sex.

 

[Ser Prize]

@DiscoRodeo It's simple, really. The social system stopped working and a whole generation of men and women became intensely lonely and crazy.

 

[Inspector Rex]

View attachment 3500582

Blame the overuse of the internet. I used to agree with the idea that making friends after high school/college is hard, but then I moved to another country several months ago and realized how easy it is to build a social circle from scratch, it's like a snowball.

However, until you're not in position "I don't have a single person to talk to IRL", you just get accustomed to status quo and at best your social pool is getting stale (or really, naturally getting smaller - people are leaving town, dying, etc).

 

[Land of Noz]

I keep hearing this but I have no clue how it even happens. How does any grown-ass adult end up in a position where they don't have a social circle of friends that keep inviting them to get-togethers, parties, weddings (Jesus christ so many weddings) and other assorted events on the regular? I'm actively trying to be a recluse most days and I still find myself dragged into way too many things by annoying and lovable friends/family/acquaintances.

Legit asking, how do people end up with none of that by their mid-20s/30s/40s? I just don't see it, but at the same time there's enough people bitching online about it that it has to be a thing, at least on some level. But how? Are you people actively burning bridges and making pariahs of yourselves?

Fair enough, but what about your family? You don't have mom/dad/aunts/uncles/cousins that expect you to rock up to family events (where there will be other people that you can meet)? Or heck, what about work? You're not meeting new people through work contacts and business functions, etc?

Honestly you should consider yourself really lucky if that's your life experience. And yeah, that used to be normal for most people, but now it's not. I had a good group of friends in high school, made more friends in college, and then even more friends in my early-mid 20s after college by going to concerts and parties. That being said, after covid, and now that I'm in my early 30s, my social circle has heavily dwindled. Also, interests and class divergences seem to matter more as you get older. Just even in my core group of high school friends, we barely see each other anymore, or at least I don't see them much. Half of them moved away to other cities after college or to go to grad school, so only about half of us remain. Of those who are here, everyone works full time, and then among the healthier friends, they go to the gym, they don't want to go out drinking every weekend, and they have other activities and interests that I am not involved in. Some of them play dungeons and dragons, some go shooting etc. Also I don't really have a good job, and when we all hang out it's just kind of awkward sometimes. People talk about their achievements at work, or the new car they are buying or whatever, and I can't contribute to those conversations, I can either make an awkward self deprecating joke, but yeah it's just weird. I find that people tend to hang out with those in their same economic class as they get older.

Also, of my core group of friends, only 2 have gotten married. Frankly, I've been to far more funerals in my 20s, of other people in my 20s, than I've been to weddings. Of my other friends that I met after college, the people I met through concerts and parties...I was never super close with them. We'd hang out a lot, drink, do drugs, go to shows, but that was where a lot of our commonalities ended. Also, a lot of these people, again, moved out of our city for different life experiences or better job opportunities. So that circle has dwindled as well. And on top of it, covid forced a lot of people to be isolated for a while. About half the population is still paranoid and won' t go out. I literally hit up a friend regarding a concert the other day and he said "oh yeah sounds fun but I was potentially exposed to covid and haven't been tested yet so I can't go out, maybe we can chill in a month if I test negative when all is clear". A lot of people are like that now.

More to the point it's one of those things where I see the friend groups diverging. The guys I mostly end up hanging out with now, which is still just maybe a couple times a month, are also other lonely guys without much dating prospects. My friend actually runs a successful weekly competitive gaming get together. About 8-15 people will show up each week. All of them guys in 20s and 30s that work full time. All of them "incels" or at least lonely guys that haven't dated in years.

The other guys in my friend group have girlfriends, or at least socialize better with women (because they look good and have high paying jobs) and it seems like they all hang out together and don't invite the lonely guys out as much. I don't think it's even that intentional, it's just covid pushed a lot of people to shrink their social circles, and things have kind of stayed that way.

To your last point, regarding family events...a lot of people don't live in the same city as their extended family. I live 800 miles away from any family members besides my parents. They took a job in this city before I was born. I think it's like that for a lot of people too.

And frankly, I consider myself lucky for the friends that I do have, because I know there are tons of guys out there who don't even have as large of a social circle as I do. My best friend is kind of like that, he has a cousin he hangs out with, and besides me he has about 2 other close friends, but both of his close friends are married with children, and he's single, so they're just way busier and he doesn't get to hang out with them as much, also due to his work he has a different schedule.

My overall point is that social cirlces really shrink as you get older, especially if you don't do the traditional wife and kids by 30. My two-three closest friends who are incels for all intents and purposes (they weren't in college, but they are now) had gfs in college, went to parties on the regular, had a fairly large social circle. Myself included. But things really change as you get older. Maybe it's geographic dependent, but this seems pretty common to me. And then add on that nearly all dating now is done thru Tinder or similar apps....and if you aren't good looking or don't have good pics, you're screwed

 

[Land of Noz]

This is the truth about incels. Most of them are just socially retarded loser types. They might have other problems as well like poor hygiene strange behavior and so on. The point is their sexless life is all their fault. But they like to blame other things like feminism Jews and women. These loser weirdos started showing up around the time the alt-right was dying. I don't remember seeing incels in 2015 2016 or 2017. I started seeing the incel shit in 2018.

There is no such thing as an incel. If you aren't getting laid it's your fault. It's not women's fault or anything else. It all on you. If you won't do any self-improvement to help you attract the opposite sex that is your fault. No, I do not mean spending time in a gym like some kind of faggot. That most likely won't help you. The internet is full of guys who did that shit and never got attention from women. Work on your hygiene, social skills and so on. Hygiene and social skills will do more than working out. Brush your teeth wash your ass shave and learn how to talk to women.

There are millions of women out there and if you can't find one that will sleep with then that's all on you. Like I said incels don't exist. It's not involuntary.

I see these incel losers and I know the kind of guys I see women with and all I can think is how fucked up these incel guys are. You see women walking around with these knuckle dragging morons that if they are lucky, they might grunt out a few words and it will never be a complete sentence. But you got these guys online bitching about how they can't get laid.

Incels: All women are sluts these days guyz

Also

incels: I can't get laid boo hoo forever alone meme.

Wait I thought all women were sluts now? You still can't get laid? This doesn't make any sense.

Honestly I disagree with this. 10 years ago, I would have agreed with your analysis, but I don't think it's accurate anymore. And the main reason I say that is one of my friends (yes anecdotal evidence, but he seems to be a common type I see online). Disclaimer, this friend would not be considered a true "incel" by the incel guys you see online, because he has had plenty of sex, he has had multiple gfs. It's just....he hasn't had that in years, not since college and right after.

I was talking to him a few months ago, and he told me it's been 4 or 5 years since he's been on a date with a woman or had sex that wasn't a prostitute. It might've been even longer, we graduated college a decade ago. The funny thing is, financially speaking, he is my most successful friend. He works in tech, he makes well over 100k per year in a low cost of living area, he owns his own house, owns a relatively new car, has decent clothes (nothing super fashionable, but not old rags). He's social, he's the one who organizes the weekly gaming meetups, and basically helped create this community of dudes that play together each week. He has female friends, he doesn't hate women. He gets along with people, and most people don't consider him to be weird or angry or anything. In fact I went to a concert with him the other night, and afterwards we went to a bar and ran into our mutual friend's sister and her friend, so we got drinks and chatted with them for a bit. Conversation flowed, nothing flirty really, but we all had a good time.

His problem? In his opinion it's because he's a short dude. Women see him, and instantly swipe left or if in real life, disregard him. He's always been short, and this didn't happen to him in college. There were always parties and get togethers, and even though he's a short dude, he legit has a great personality, can make people laugh, knows how to flirt, etc. It's just that, in his words, since graduating college, he doesn't really go to parties anymore or socialize that much. I always try to invite him out, but he lived in the suburbs after college (where he was able to buy a house with his great income) and just didn't go out as much I guess. Idk, dating has been hard as hell for me too, but I've managed somehow. I present this as a case study, of a younger guy (he's 30 now) who was not an incel, but has basically become an incel, despite growing in every other aspect of life. If he has trouble with dating, I can only imagine just how much worse it is for guys like him who don't have good jobs, and who don't have good social skills.

 

[Duke Nukem]

Women are Idols to incels. God allows them suffer misfortune because they deliberately choose to seek things which are not God. And this absence of God is base suffering.

Will religion cure incel? Or do they just become Christcels or something?

The sooner they accept that women will never want them the better off they'll be. Sure I'm gonna get called a blackpiller or something but some guys just won't ever make the cut. No matter what they do.