Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

I was watching some retroblasting vids about star wars toys and the drama + autism the community had towards it, kinda strange that michael doesnt have a thread on kf.


But what I just doesnt get it is how people can love kenner toys when better toys exists, I get the nostalgia but even so, with all the current hasbro shit going on with prices, i just doesnt get how people pay hundreds of dollars to shitty toys and cry like children about reproduction toys thar looks equally shit as their kenner ones.
 
The whole fucking point was a strong, human-centric galactic community.
Scifi going the "human superiority" route is the absolutely most retarded thing that plagues the genre to this day. Not only it is a justified position by logic and natural laws, but trying to equivalent with modern day racism is incredibly insulting towards minorities.
But Star Wars is especially bad as the idea of a "human" race was never established, and humans on different planets will start to massively diverge as time passed.
 
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Star Wars is finally mature. All Disney had to do was to remove the soul, the non-human aliens and desaturate the picture.
At this point Star Wars is so far removed from it's original concept (throwback space opera epic inspired by a lot of stuff but mostly 1940s movie serials Lucas watched as a kid) it might as well be called something else.

Most SW fans can't rationalize spending time watching something not called 'Star Wars', and therefore want Star Wars to turn into something isn't. They can't understand that even though Star Wars reached a wide audience (at one point in history), it was supposed to be suitable for kids. It baffles me how many people want MORE Starshit but LESS of the things that made Star Wars stand out in the first place. They want less Jedi, less of the force.

....Why the fuck don't they watch something else? Do they not know they make movies for adults? That aren't capeshit and Star Wars? Like others have said ITT, SW fans have such low standards that as long as the thing they're consooming isn't viscerally offensive on every possible level (The Last Jedi), they'll watch it no questions asked.


Blandor will be forgotten as soon as its over and the fans move on to consooming the next SW content. Do kids even like Blandor? It seems to be made exclusively for grown manchildren who feel embarrassed for liking Star Wars past the age of 13.
 
Scifi going the "human superiority" route is the absolutely most retarded thing that plagues the genre to this day. Not only it is a justified position by logic and natural laws, but trying to equivalent with modern day racism is incredibly insulting towards minorities.
The same "human superiority" route has also plagued the fantasy genre with the latest example being Amazon's LOTR show.
 
I still can't get over how they made a Boba Fett show bad and that they never finished those clone wars episodes when they had the chance.
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The same "human superiority" route has also plagued the fantasy genre with the latest example being Amazon's LOTR show.
At least in Fantasy you'd usually have the races sharing the same eco system and the history of having race feuds. Not that it makes any lick of sense in Tolkien's setting.
 
To be fair, KOTOR2 lets you roleplay a traditionally virtuous Jedi, who insightfully points out Kreia's hypocrisies, fallacies, and motivated reasoning, helps others out of compassion, and vindicates the values of the Jedi, even as its individual members miss the mark.

You can engage and agree with the deconstruction, or you can tell Grandma Avellone to fuck off. I respect that.
At the end of the day, Kreia's the villain of a story about a broken galaxy where everyone's desperate to find a purpose to justify their existence and ignore the greater threat looming in the sequel-that-will-never-happen, and your job, dark or light path, is to kick her ass.

The deconstruction of both Star Wars and RPGs in Kotor 2, even in it's unfinished state, works because it's filtered through in-universe sources (The normal RPG main character/companion dynamic comes from the Exile being a wound that's unintentionally influencing people, Kreia's philosophy is basically based upon taking 'May the force be with you' waaaay too seriously, the borderline worship of Revan comes from the cult of personality he built up). Rather than current day meta commentary where characters are talking in a way that only makes sense from an out-of-universe perspective (i.e Luke and Kylo literally telling Rey that she can't be important because she doesn't have a famous family name or Han mentioning how these super weapons always have weak points to exploit).

I also never saw Kotor 2 as supporting 'grey morality' or Jedi being worthless. It all surrounds how the effects of the Manadalorian Wars still echo to the present. It's not that the jedi are really the evil ones or that they have no place, it's just that Revan seemingly proved all their fears about their possible interference in the wars leading to the creation of something worse, that when they finally attempted to do something, they were immediately wiped out by their enemy, leaving the survivors too fearful to make any direct action or learn about their enemy.

It's not that the Jedi and Sith are the same, it's that the average people who don't give a shit about nuance and have nowhere near the power force-users have just see a civil war between jedi and jedi who wanted to add red to the lightsaber colours that they always seem to get caught in the crossfire of. A perception not helped by how all the living Sith you face in this part of the Old Republic era are all basically fallen jedi. Even Kreia's view of the Sith is that they're self-destructive fuckwits whose only use is to be the fire under the ass that gets the Jedi to realize they need to act.

Kreia doesn't really give a shit about your morality technically, she's happy as long as you display your decision process as more than 'This gets me good/bad boy points'. Which is why you'll actively lose influence with her if all you do is pick the options that seem to just blindly agree with her. She's like those annoying philosophy exams you get in school, she doesn't care about your answer as long as you explain why with at least three pretentious words thrown in per paragraph. I think Kreia's a blowhard who's coping with her existential crisis through Revan Simping, but she works as a character because the story treats her as a person rather than Avellone's personal mouth piece... Even if she is. Your enjoyment of the story doesn't hinge on you clapping at everything she says.
 
People who say the Jedi and Sith are the same are just wrong. The Sith and the Jedi are fundamentally opposed on spiritual grounds. IU I get why people would conflate them, and fallen Jedi further confuse things.

OOU though its dumb for people to argue "ah they're the same" when that's just false.
 
People who say the Jedi and Sith are the same are just wrong. The Sith and the Jedi are fundamentally opposed on spiritual grounds. IU I get why people would conflate them, and fallen Jedi further confuse things.

OOU though its dumb for people to argue "ah they're the same" when that's just false.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" Obi-Wan Kenobi

And he's right.
Palpatine thought Vader/Anakin wouldn't change from the dark side. To be fair, 10+ years of grooming would do that.
Sith are the ones who want to upset the natural order in wanting to become gods. Hell, the Sith are their own worse enemy in only having two at a time.
 
The Jedi are fundamentally built around self denial, and surrender, the Sith are built around self aggrandizement and egotism.

Or its really a struggle between Buddhists seeking nirvana and Nietzcheans seeking ubermensch-dom.

(I know that's a somewhat uneven analogy-but I think this dichotomy explains Sith-Jedi theological and spiritual differences better than anything else I can think of).
 
People who say the Jedi and Sith are the same are just wrong. The Sith and the Jedi are fundamentally opposed on spiritual grounds. IU I get why people would conflate them, and fallen Jedi further confuse things.

OOU though its dumb for people to argue "ah they're the same" when that's just false.
I dunno I liked the suggestion the new movies were starting to make before they changed direction that both "sides" really only exist out of paranoia about the other. Like Jedi start hyperventilating about the dark side every five minutes so when they do eventually accidentally let a fart slip in front a princess they're like "welp I guess I'm 100% evil now".

So they can be diametric opposites but if you can pingpong between them this easily while telling yourself there's literally no middle path maybe the whole thing's just the product of retardation.
 
I dunno I liked the suggestion the new movies were starting to make before they changed direction that both "sides" really only exist out of paranoia about the other. Like Jedi start hyperventilating about the dark side every five minutes so when they do eventually accidentally let a fart slip in front a princess they're like "welp I guess I'm 100% evil now".

So they can be diametric opposites but if you can pingpong between them this easily while telling yourself there's literally no middle path maybe the whole thing's just the product of retardation.
I'm not sure that's the point the ST was making? That said, I don't think the Jedi-Sith dance is inevitable (it certainly causes a lot of collateral destruction), perhaps there would be somewhere to meet in the middle (i.e. the ancient Je'daii)-in the old EU the Sith were borne from the Jedi, and are their inverse.
 
I'm not sure that's the point the ST was making? That said, I don't think the Jedi-Sith dance is inevitable (it certainly causes a lot of collateral destruction), perhaps there would be somewhere to meet in the middle (i.e. the ancient Je'daii)-in the old EU the Sith were borne from the Jedi, and are their inverse.
It never got to make the point because they decided completely retarded sequels would be better, but I felt like it might have been going that way.
I still like that interpretation even if I imagined it.
 
At the end of the day, Kreia's the villain of a story about a broken galaxy where everyone's desperate to find a purpose to justify their existence and ignore the greater threat looming in the sequel-that-will-never-happen, and your job, dark or light path, is to kick her ass.
I never saw Kreia as a villain. More like an unorthodox trainer who was trying to prepare the Exile for the road ahead. I mean, was she ever going to make good on her threat to try and kill the Force? Or was it all just BS to try and get you to fulfill your potential and become the best you can be? My guess is the latter, because Kreia simply wanted the Exile to be strong enough to stand with Revan to face against the True Sith.

The deconstruction of both Star Wars and RPGs in Kotor 2, even in it's unfinished state, works because it's filtered through in-universe sources (The normal RPG main character/companion dynamic comes from the Exile being a wound that's unintentionally influencing people, Kreia's philosophy is basically based upon taking 'May the force be with you' waaaay too seriously, the borderline worship of Revan comes from the cult of personality he built up). Rather than current day meta commentary where characters are talking in a way that only makes sense from an out-of-universe perspective (i.e Luke and Kylo literally telling Rey that she can't be important because she doesn't have a famous family name or Han mentioning how these super weapons always have weak points to exploit).
The best part about it is that you can reject their opinions and go full Jedi or full Sith if you want; their "deconstruction" merely raises a few questions about the Jedi or the Sith which you can ignore or answer at your leisure.

I also never saw Kotor 2 as supporting 'grey morality' or Jedi being worthless. It all surrounds how the effects of the Manadalorian Wars still echo to the present. It's not that the jedi are really the evil ones or that they have no place, it's just that Revan seemingly proved all their fears about their possible interference in the wars leading to the creation of something worse, that when they finally attempted to do something, they were immediately wiped out by their enemy, leaving the survivors too fearful to make any direct action or learn about their enemy.
KOTOR 2 has to be one of the games where it really felt good to be Light Side. The other games just gave you standard cookie-cutter endings, but KOTOR 2's storyline where you play as a pure light-side Jedi really feels good when you help everyone you meet, including your own team, and making your crew into a team of Jedi is something that is rewarding and helping those in need is just catharsis for Jedi fans.

Kreia doesn't really give a shit about your morality technically, she's happy as long as you display your decision process as more than 'This gets me good/bad boy points'. Which is why you'll actively lose influence with her if all you do is pick the options that seem to just blindly agree with her. She's like those annoying philosophy exams you get in school, she doesn't care about your answer as long as you explain why with at least three pretentious words thrown in per paragraph. I think Kreia's a blowhard who's coping with her existential crisis through Revan Simping, but she works as a character because the story treats her as a person rather than Avellone's personal mouth piece... Even if she is. Your enjoyment of the story doesn't hinge on you clapping at everything she says.
Heck, some of my playthroughs of KOTOR 2 just had me disappointing her all the way because when I first popped in the game, I went full Light-Side, and I still got a good ending from her where she became friendly at the end and just became a fortune-teller before she died off.
 
So has anybody actually seen Andor? Kinda sad nobody really gives enough of a shit to give reviews on it.
 
Personally I've always felt the Jedi and the Sith conflict is just a physical manifestation of the eternal dance of the force itself-the light and dark sides in the old EU are metaphysically separate from just sapient mortal life, sort of like aspects of the Dao with a touch of manicheanism.

The Jedi in legends had a schism something like 17,000 years before the dark jedi exiles landed on Korriban with a group that was basically pre Sith. (Albeit not exactly).

The transcending of this conflict, is something the EU does sort of hint at-Vergere, Cade Skywalker, even Luke by the end of the Denningverse basically adopts Vergere's philosophy without giving credit. (That being balance and internal moral virtue is more important than the label).

How you transcend it, I'm not sure. But I think Vergere-Sith retcon or no, has the right way-the Sith and Jedi are basically just labels, religious organizations yes-but they should not define how those blessed with a connection to the force see themselves in connection with it. Maybe they're fated not too(as there is an aspect of the force that basically represents destiny) or maybe its just a refusal to break from the eternal dualistic paradigm of "we're good our enemies are bad" and "we're right, our enemies are blind".
 
So has anybody actually seen Andor? Kinda sad nobody really gives enough of a shit to give reviews on it.
Yeah I think it's actually pretty great so far.
First few eps are pure Star Wars worldbuilding without any Jedi faggotry, or even really the Empire (besides dead crewmen, and in the most recent episode some bureaucrats and one second of tie fighters flying by). They make a point of not even referring to the Rebels by name, and establish that they're still a wide variety of disparate partisans at this point.
Episode 1 is a tonal ripoff of Bladerunner and I can't hate that.

Who knows if it'll hold up but it's off to a refreshing start anyway.
 
I mean, was she ever going to make good on her threat to try and kill the Force? Or was it all just BS to try and get you to fulfill your potential and become the best you can be?
Yes, she absolutely was if she believed it would work. Her entire character revolves around this. In her view, killing the force is the only way to make a galaxy where no one relies on it. She leaves her teachings to the Exile to make sure someone carries them after the plan fails or succeeds and gives in when she realizes she's lost and the Exile isn't going to give her what she wanted and directs the Exile to Revan's trail.
 
Yes, she absolutely was if she believed it would work. Her entire character revolves around this. In her view, killing the force is the only way to make a galaxy where no one relies on it. She leaves her teachings to the Exile to make sure someone carries them after the plan fails or succeeds and gives in when she realizes she's lost and the Exile isn't going to give her what she wanted and directs the Exile to Revan's trail.
I never got that. It always felt like a hollow threat to me-just something to get your ass up to work to beat her, so that you can be ready for the future. I mean, killing the Force would kill not just Jedi or Sith, but just about everyone, since all life is touched by the Force, not just Force-sensitives. It always felt like a hollow doomsday plot to just get your ass in gear.

So has anybody actually seen Andor? Kinda sad nobody really gives enough of a shit to give reviews on it.
It depends on what you like.

People wanting Star Wars-style action are going to be bored shitless, people who want worldbuilding without space wizards will find it interesting.

Me? The only interesting bits for me were the corporate guys and the ISB people so far. It was interesting to me when the chief corporate security guy told his subordinate to fabricate an accident after he successfully deduced what happened to some guys who got killed, and I found it funny that the ISB Major said the ISB girl was wrong when she quoted their mission statement to answer his question of what they were all doing in that room.
 
I never got that. It always felt like a hollow threat to me-just something to get your ass up to work to beat her, so that you can be ready for the future.
Again, Kreia's character revolves around her goals and her insane distain for the force. Her not actually being serious about anything she's spouting makes no god damn sense and doesn't sync at all with how she's written.

I mean, killing the Force would kill not just Jedi or Sith, but just about everyone, since all life is touched by the Force, not just Force-sensitives. It always felt like a hollow doomsday plot to just get your ass in gear.
Of course it would, that's the idea. The Exile represents the idea that it is possible to live without the force if you're willing to let it go. She absolutely despises the idea of the force having any sort of mandatory intervention in her life. She'd prefer the Galaxy die free of the force's influence than survive on it. You know, the exact thing she directly tells you when you've beaten her and there's no reason to actually lie about her goals.
 
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