War Invasion of Ukraine News Megathread - Thread is only for articles and discussion of articles, general discussion thread is still in Happenings.

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President Joe Biden on Tuesday said that the United States will impose sanctions “far beyond” the ones that the United States imposed in 2014 following the annexation of the Crimean peninsula.

“This is the beginning of a Russian invasion of Ukraine,” Biden said in a White House speech, signaling a shift in his administration’s position. “We will continue to escalate sanctions if Russia escalates,” he added.

Russian elites and their family members will also soon face sanctions, Biden said, adding that “Russia will pay an even steeper price” if Moscow decides to push forward into Ukraine. Two Russian banks and Russian sovereign debt will also be sanctioned, he said.

Also in his speech, Biden said he would send more U.S. troops to the Baltic states as a defensive measure to strengthen NATO’s position in the area.

Russia shares a border with Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

A day earlier, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered troops to go into the separatist Donetsk and Lugansk regions in eastern Ukraine after a lengthy speech in which he recognized the two regions’ independence.

Western powers decried the move and began to slap sanctions on certain Russian individuals, while Germany announced it would halt plans to go ahead with the Russia-to-Germany Nord Stream 2 pipeline.

At home, Biden is facing bipartisan pressure to take more extensive actions against Russia following Putin’s decision. However, a recent poll showed that a majority of Americans believe that sending troops to Ukraine is a “bad idea,” and a slim minority believes it’s a good one.

All 27 European Union countries unanimously agreed on an initial list of sanctions targeting Russian authorities, said French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, and EU foreign affairs head Josep Borell claimed the package “will hurt Russia … a lot.”

Earlier Tuesday, Borell asserted that Russian troops have already entered the Donbas region, which comprises Donetsk and Lugansk, which are under the control of pro-Russia groups since 2014.

And on Tuesday, the Russian Parliament approved a Putin-back plan to use military force outside of Russia’s borders as Putin further said that Russia confirmed it would recognize the expanded borders of Lugansk and Donetsk.

“We recognized the states,” the Russian president said. “That means we recognized all of their fundamental documents, including the constitution, where it is written that their [borders] are the territories at the time the two regions were part of Ukraine.”

Speaking to reporters on Tuesday, Putin said that Ukraine is “not interested in peaceful solutions” and that “every day, they are amassing troops in the Donbas.”

Meanwhile, Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky on Tuesday morning again downplayed the prospect of a Russian invasion and proclaimed: “There will be no war.”

“There will not be an all-out war against Ukraine, and there will not be a broad escalation from Russia. If there is, then we will put Ukraine on a war footing,” he said in a televised address.

The White House began to signal that they would shift their own position on whether it’s the start of an invasion.

“We think this is, yes, the beginning of an invasion, Russia’s latest invasion into Ukraine,” said Jon Finer, the White House deputy national security adviser in public remarks. “An invasion is an invasion and that is what is underway.”

For weeks, Western governments have been claiming Moscow would invade its neighbor after Russia gathered some 150,000 troops along the countries’ borders. They alleged that the Kremlin would attempt to come up with a pretext to attack, while some officials on Monday said Putin’s speech recognizing the two regions was just that.

But Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin told reporters Tuesday that Russia’s “latest invasion” of Ukraine is threatening stability in the region, but he asserted that Putin can “still avoid a full blown, tragic war of choice.”

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Not sure why the shouting, but...

I know enough about it. What I don't know is why it really matters to the question you posed. My answer to "what about them" is that they were fucked.

I mean... they were. What do you want me to say? For that matter, what were the people of the 1940s to say... "Boy, gosh, we really want Hitler to stop invading countries and committing genocide, but the Germans will suffer if we do that, so I guess we just let him do it."?

Like I said. War sucks. That doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. Try blaming the people who start the damned things. Sometimes that has been us. I never said we were saints. But other times it hasn't been.
Obviously the world should just give into any nuclear country invading a neighbor because if they lose they might sperg out and destroy the world. Don't pay attention to the nagging thought that if you were to do that then every country with an even slightly hostile neighbor might start getting ideas about how they need to develop nukes ASAP for either offensive or defensive purposes. Just live in a retarded state of fear and give the scary man your wallet so he doesn't shank you.
 
I again recommend you start reading some https://antiwar.com/ it is a consistent antiwar outlet that has a great track record, it's by autistic libertarians and not some agenda driven propaganda rag.

Can't believe I missed this before...

"I again recommend you start reading some https://antiwar.com/ it is a consistent antiwar outlet that has a great track record, it's by autistic libertarians"

" and not some agenda driven propaganda rag."

Uh-huh.

Russia was a slow roller in WWII, and I believe that is the case now; next spring they will throw in everything they've got with full mobilization.

Russia in WWII was Ukraine today - militarily being supplied by outside powers. Left on it's own, it would not have fared so well.
 
Not sure why the shouting, but...

I know enough about it. What I don't know is why it really matters to the question you posed. My answer to "what about them" is that they were fucked.

I mean... they were. What do you want me to say? For that matter, what were the people of the 1940s to say... "Boy, gosh, we really want Hitler to stop invading countries and committing genocide, but the Germans will suffer if we do that, so I guess we just let him do it."?

Like I said. War sucks. That doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. Try blaming the people who start the damned things. Sometimes that has been us. I never said we were saints. But other times it hasn't been.
My contention was with your casual dismissal of the suffering of the Germans.

You have been very civil so this is not meant in a mean way but your post suggests your opinion about WW2 is partially formed by Hollywood movies.

It's a pivotal point in many peoples mind "the good War" "it was necessary" and "it prevented more suffering than it caused", at least from the Allies side.
This idea is a complete propaganda fabrication.

You should at least watch the film if you can't be asked to read the book https://odysee.com/@KnowledgeBase:e/HELLSTORM-Documentary-2015-KYLE-HUNT:c
 
Can't believe I missed this before...
Russia in WWII was Ukraine today - militarily being supplied by outside powers. Left on it's own, it would not have fared so well.

It's my contention they are being supplied by outside powers RIGHT NOW.

(and they are)

Of course, they're not getting the sweet deal they had in WW2 with all the 2-ton trucks and tanks they can handle. However, they're also not fighting Germany.

Maybe you people are right, I certainly don't have a lot of people agreeing with me. But I think Russia is just getting started.
 
What I really want to know is what should be done about him?
It's very simple,
1. Crimea is Ukraine and its water supply is assured
2. Former territories of the Kievan Rus under control by Russia have UN-sanctioned referendums if they wanna join Ukraine (this war is about saving people from a nazi regime, and the will of the people, so this should be fine)
3. Russia stays out of CSTO

Otherwise, Russia should be demilitarized and denazified to ensure freedom for the people of its western regions.

If you're asking why diplomatic solutions can't be done, 1. a diplomatic solution shouldve prevented this war, see the minsk agreement and Budapest memorandum, theyre as good as toilet paper now; and 2. every proposed peace agreement wouldve been a diktat, the Ukrainian equivalent to the treaty of versailles, and even still the germans were thoroughly beaten before signing that
 
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Really, the vatniks are pissy because the west didn't bend over and let Russia steamroll into Ukraine, which by the way, the west didn't start sending more sophisticated weapons into Ukraine until after Ukraine's own military stopped the Russian advanced on its own.
I don't doubt that the US wanted to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan (or I guess second Afghanistan since they did the same shit in Afghanistan the vatniks cry that the US did) - AFTER the Ukrainian government fled and their army surrendered.
When the aforementioned circumstance that most the world thought would happen didn't happen and Ukraine started holding off the Russians in an open conventional war, the plan obviously changed.

But I think Russia is just getting started.
With what?
They already got VDV annihilated, they already lost 4th Tank Guards. Russia has already sent a major chunk of what little modernized forces they have and an equally larger chunk of their professional military.

So unless Russia has a secret army of highly trained spetnaz forces equipped with hundreds of wunderwaffen T-14 tanks and stockpiled supplies, I don't think much is going to change aside from Ukraine needing more ammo.

Granted I would urge caution against "oh is Russia almost out of equipment yet!?!" speculation, but to think Russia can magically flip a switch and recoup serious losses to whats left of its trained, professional army is extremely optimistic.
 
My contention was with your casual dismissal of the suffering of the Germans.

Oh, I could be far more casual about it than I am. I'm willing to concede it sucked for them - what more do you want me to say? I would guesstimate something like 98-99% of the people alive then are dead now. Probably 50-75% of them were dead when I was born. I've never met any of them personally. I have no emotional investment in them.

You keep throwing around dehumanizing, This isn't that. But they are not of my tribe. They're not of my generation. They're not of my nationality. In a very real sense, I *don't* care. I can't.

Beyond that, well... that's realpolitik for you. Sometimes wars happen. Sometimes you can't avoid them, like Ukraine right now. Sometimes you shouldn't avoid them, like WW2. Sometimes the alternative is worse.

You have been very civil so this is not meant in a mean way but your post suggests your opinion about WW2 is partially formed by Hollywood movies.

It's a pivotal point in many peoples mind "the good War" "it was necessary" and "it prevented more suffering than it caused", at least from the Allies side.
This idea is a complete propaganda fabrication.

Question: Did the events we commonly refer to as the Holocaust happen? I'm not asking for which set of numbers is more accurate or anything like that, or whether the Jews or the Gypsies had it worse, or anything. Just a simple yes or no as to whether the basic events happened.

Question: Did Germany invade other sovereign countries? I'm not asking about how much the German people supported this or that, simply did it happen?

I'm not even going to touch the Pacific theater, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
 
With what?
They already got VDV annihilated, they already lost 4th Tank Guards. Russia has already sent a major chunk of what little modernized forces they have and an equally larger chunk of their professional military.

1. I don't believe Ukrainian claims on casualties (or Russian). Unverifiable.
2. I don't think Russia has lost a "major chunk" of their modernized forces. I don't think they expected this level of warfare, and will gather everything available for their next offensive in spring. If you are right, they'll likely be defeated by then.

Granted I would urge caution against "oh is Russia almost out of equipment yet!?!" speculation, but to think Russia can magically flip a switch and recoup serious losses to whats left of its trained, professional army is extremely optimistic.

We've been told the same thing (they're out of missiles! They're out of ammo! etc) since the first summer. I don't think they're running out of anything, I don't believe the claims and have seen no evidence to back them up.
 
Russia was a slow roller in WWII, and I believe that is the case now; next spring they will throw in everything they've got with full mobilization.
Lend-Lease? Never heard of her.
USSR wasn't roflstomped by Hitler because allies helped. They're Ukrainian allies now, and Russia has none with pockets that deep.

Russia is not "just getting started". They weren't planning for a prolonged war to begin with, their operation was supposed to be quick and decisive. Now they're scrambling, implementing more and more desperate measures in attempt to salvage it. It's not something they can afford in the long term, the country is heading straight into oblivion as a result.
It's going to be North Korea 2.0 if Putin is not removed.
1. I don't believe Ukrainian claims on casualties (or Russian). Unverifiable.
2. I don't think Russia has lost a "major chunk" of their modernized forces. I don't think they expected this level of warfare, and will gather everything available for their next offensive in spring. If you are right, they'll likely be defeated by then.
Then explain mobilization where Russians are forcefully conscripted by the hundreds of thousands. Where did the professional army go?
Right, it was spent and can't possibly achieve the objectives Putin gave them, because he severely misjudged Ukraine's will and capabilities, as well as response from international community.
 
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Lend-Lease? Never heard of her.
USSR wasn't roflstomped by Hitler because allies helped. They're Ukrainian allies now, and Russia has none with pockets that deep.

Again, Ukraine is not Germany.

To think Russia has expended the best of its army already... I dunno. Seems kinda stupid to me.

Hopefully, we'll find out the truth soon enough, and this doesn't go on for a decade.
 
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Again, Ukraine is not Germany.

To think Russia has expended the best of its army already... I dunno. Seems kinda stupid to me.

Hopefully, we'll find out the truth soon enough, and this doesn't go on for a decade.
Exactly, Russia is the Germany now, and it lost that war.

Russia sent its best, and it simply wasn't enough. They're now choosing to send everyone else, people largely unwilling - it won't go well either.
 
Exactly, Russia is the Germany now, and it lost that war.

Russia sent its best, and it simply wasn't enough. They're now choosing to send everyone else, people largely unwilling - it won't go well either.

I know you all keep saying Russia sent its best and it's over, but that's all it is. Just people like you parroting the same thing over and over, with no actual evidence to back up your claims other than the squawking.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong with PROOF of these huge losses, and evidence that all of Russia's best are dead and gone.
 
I know you all keep saying Russia sent its best and it's over, but that's all it is. Just people like you parroting the same thing over and over, with no actual evidence to back up your claims other than the squawking.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong with PROOF of these huge losses, and evidence that all of Russia's best are dead and gone.

Russia is literally pulling tanks out of storage that have been obsolete since the early 1970s. Tanks that are vulnerable to the most basic of anti-tank weapons like the RPG-7 and LAW 72s, which any modern tank can shrug off easily. Their Black Sea Fleet flagship was sunk. They are resorting to conscripting literal retards, serial killers, and at least one cannibal. Their troops are surrendering by the thousands just to get socks and food that isn't from the Soviet era. Their troops that surrender or are captured are singing like canaries about how bad morale is in the Russian army, how none of them want to fight, and how they're only getting a day or two of training before being sent to the front. The whole fucking world is against Russia, even the few allies they have.

Ukraine keeps gaining ground. They have the support of the free world and most powerful nations backing them. They're being armed with superior weapons and equipment that has actually been properly maintained (unlike the Russian gear). They actually have optics on their rifles, a mandatory feature in modern warfare. Their troops are highly motivated and well-trained. Their fighting aged men are fleeing the country any way they can.

And let's just pretend for a minute that Russia actually does win: it will probably be worse for them to win than it would to lose. The whole free world is pissed at them, and would be even more so if they win and occupy Ukraine. The world will not recognize any land claims they make. Any new government they install will not be recognized as legitimate. Their prospects for trade deals and exports will disappear, and the world may cut them off completely from import sales as well. Either way Russia is fucked, but them winning this war will make their death swifter.
 
Oh, I could be far more casual about it than I am. I'm willing to concede it sucked for them - what more do you want me to say? I would guesstimate something like 98-99% of the people alive then are dead now. Probably 50-75% of them were dead when I was born. I've never met any of them personally. I have no emotional investment in them.

You keep throwing around dehumanizing, This isn't that. But they are not of my tribe. They're not of my generation. They're not of my nationality. In a very real sense, I *don't* care. I can't.

Beyond that, well... that's realpolitik for you. Sometimes wars happen. Sometimes you can't avoid them, like Ukraine right now. Sometimes you shouldn't avoid them, like WW2. Sometimes the alternative is worse.



Question: Did the events we commonly refer to as the Holocaust happen? I'm not asking for which set of numbers is more accurate or anything like that, or whether the Jews or the Gypsies had it worse, or anything. Just a simple yes or no as to whether the basic events happened.

Question: Did Germany invade other sovereign countries? I'm not asking about how much the German people supported this or that, simply did it happen?

I'm not even going to touch the Pacific theater, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
The thing is you are now actively choosing to ignore information.

I know that my comment that your history about WW2 comes partially if not mostly from Hollywood entertainment made you think I am talking about the Holocaust, I am specifically referring to this statement made by you
we really want Hitler to stop invading countries and committing genocide
thinking that the Holocaust was a motivation for any Allied power to go to war is wrong.
But you thinking this, shows a lack of knowledge regarding the subject.

You should never think of things you learn from entertainment as real.

The Holocaust is per definition about the centrally planned extermination of 6million Jews via gas chamber etc.
so your question doesn't make any sense.

Since you decided to be a massive faggot and imply https://antiwar.com/ is an agenda driven propaganda site.

I really want to know, what you consider to be good sources of information
You have been dodging this since I first asked as if you are ashamed to answer it.
 
It's very simple,
1. Crimea is Ukraine and its water supply is assured
2. Former territories of the Kievan Rus under control by Russia have UN-sanctioned referendums if they wanna join Ukraine (this war is about saving people from a nazi regime, and the will of the people, so this should be fine)
3. Russia stays out of CSTO

Otherwise, Russia should be demilitarized and denazified to ensure freedom for the people of its western regions.

If you're asking why diplomatic solutions can't be done, 1. a diplomatic solution shouldve prevented this war, see the minsk agreement and Budapest memorandum, theyre as good as toilet paper now; and 2. every proposed peace agreement wouldve been a diktat, the Ukrainian equivalent to the treaty of versailles, and even still the germans were thoroughly beaten before signing that
"Russia should be demilitarized"

You are either to dumb to realize that Russia would never demilitarize or you know they wouldn't and just want war.
 
The thing is you are now actively choosing to ignore information.
Choosing to ignore propaganda is not ignorance.

I know that my comment that your history about WW2 comes partially if not mostly from Hollywood entertainment made you think I am talking about the Holocaust, I am specifically referring to this statement made by you

thinking that the Holocaust was a motivation for any Allied power to go to war is wrong.
But you thinking this, shows a lack of knowledge regarding the subject.
Jews in America were very gung-ho to aid the United States, and Polish refugees in England were very helpful to the English in their war against the Germans, because they knew their people were being persecuted by the Nazis. They just didn't know to what extent.

You should never think of things you learn from entertainment as real.
Fiction is sometimes based on reality.

The Holocaust is per definition about the centrally planned extermination of 6million Jews via gas chamber etc.
so your question doesn't make any sense.
The Holocaust was a planned extermination of a culture, civilians included. Given that the Russians were killing Ukrainian civilians from the start of the war, and they were denying the very existence of Ukrainian culture and nationhood, I'd say the bill fits. It's just that Russia can't conquer Ukraine for shit, so their potential in killing civilians and wiping out a culture has been crippled beyond repair.

Since you decided to be a massive faggot and imply https://antiwar.com/ is an agenda driven propaganda site.

I really want to know, what you consider to be good sources of information
You have been dodging this since I first asked as if you are ashamed to answer it.
It's in the fucking name. They're against all wars, even just wars waged by nations who have every reason to wage a war.

Also, there's no end to verifiable sources of info, from Newsweek and US News and World Report, to even fucking CNN and the New York Times/New York Post.
 
Yeah, Germany didn't have road-mobile rapid fire precision guided missile launchers.


Source: [Dude trust me bro]


We are on the same page in this regard.
I would argue the best proof of them losing a lot of their men is the fact they’ve been forced to do a “partial mobilization” for their “special military operation.” It’s not politically expedient to do “a partial mobilization” so they’d only do it, if they had no other option. They have no option because the war is dragging on longer than planned and the attrition rate is higher than expected. If they weren’t suffering material and human losses, a “partial mobilization” and sending out T-64s wouldn’t be necessary.
 
Incorrect. They tried to assassinate Castro time and time again, even after the Cuban Missile Crisis, not to mention the Bay of Pigs Invasion. But wouldnt you say this mirrors what happened with Ukraine in Cuba's place and Russia in the US's place?

Bay of Pigs was a the US giving a bunch of surplus WWII gear to butthurt Cubans (and then trolling them epically by withholding air support.)
This is the same reason Russia was able to get away with funding and supplying the Donbros: its harder to have a solid case for interference when its external vs. internal.
 
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