Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Buckaroo]

3.5e was broken and built for powergaming but in a way where you would get a giggle out of the builds because they rely on dumb interactions and end in something amazingly dumb.

5e is broken and built for powergaming but in a way where you fall asleep reading about the builds because they all boil down to "big number multiple times."

 

[Snekposter]

Random bit of possible off-topic, but I've always wanted a heist-centered campaign along the lines of Payday, with lots of pre-planning and laying the groundwork before the big day, with all sorts of opportunity costs for players to get rid of complications or cause them. Everyone from social players to heavies gets to shine in a situation like that, whether its turning someone into an inside man or just looking angrily at anyone who might cause problems, and if problems do happen acting as Plan B or talking the cops into giving up enough that you can slip away with your ill-gotten gains.

 

[Ghostse]

3.5e was broken and built for powergaming but in a way where you would get a giggle out of the builds because they rely on dumb interactions and end in something amazingly dumb.

5e is broken and built for powergaming but in a way where you fall asleep reading about the builds because they all boil down to "big number multiple times."

I will say the 3.5e broke builds at least usually had holes you poke through. Even a normal quadratic caster would be fucked if they lost at rocket tag.

5e broken builds are just cranked stats, and 5e characters are beefier both in comparison and raw numbers than 3.5e, so the existing holes are smaller. A DM could one-shot gank a power gamer completely honestly with the RAW, in 5e unless they are like lvl 2 they are going to make it through at least one hit.

Random bit of possible off-topic, but I've always wanted a heist-centered campaign along the lines of Payday, with lots of pre-planning and laying the groundwork before the big day, with all sorts of opportunity costs for players to get rid of complications or cause them. Everyone from social players to heavies gets to shine in a situation like that, whether its turning someone into an inside man or just looking angrily at anyone who might cause problems, and if problems do happen acting as Plan B or talking the cops into giving up enough that you can slip away with your ill-gotten gains.

Problem with that is if you think about your average heist movie, there is distinct phases. The Heavies do jack shit for 3/4ths of the movies. The Talky Character is usually the leader so they get more time, but when there is a talky character who isn't the leader, they do the same. Basically you're going to have players with a lot of downtime in session.

What I would recommend would be a highly abstract, time constrained system.

And I can only see this working if the party members all talk to each other outside of session.

Where the DM lays out the mission & players take their roles. The party spends the next week coming up with their plan internally, with questions to the DM. Then the session is rapid fire roll & response - if players get into a shoot out with the guards, the shoot out is settled in 1-2 rolls, not tactical combat. When things go to shit, they have a couple minutes to adjust the plan and things proceed.

 

[Judge Dredd]

5e is broken and built for powergaming but in a way where you fall asleep reading about the builds because they all boil down to "big number multiple times."

I had players who aren't min-maxers complain that 5e is restrictive because you either put everything you can into your main stat, or you feel like you're not playing the game right or are holding back the party.

 

[Snekposter]

Problem with that is if you think about your average heist movie, there is distinct phases. The Heavies do jack shit for 3/4ths of the movies. The Talky Character is usually the leader so they get more time, but when there is a talky character who isn't the leader, they do the same. Basically you're going to have players with a lot of downtime in session.

What I would recommend would be a highly abstract, time constrained system.

And I can only see this working if the party members all talk to each other outside of session.

Where the DM lays out the mission & players take their roles. The party spends the next week coming up with their plan internally, with questions to the DM. Then the session is rapid fire roll & response - if players get into a shoot out with the guards, the shoot out is settled in 1-2 rolls, not tactical combat. When things go to shit, they have a couple minutes to adjust the plan and things proceed.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that sort of thing. No reason a good GM or party (or both, ideally) couldn't come up with things for the heavy to do before the big day. Just off the top of my head you could get said heavy hired on as a go-fer and have him sneak in some gear or do some things that don't require too much brainpower, and then he opens the door up for everyone else on the big day. Or the heavy could go along with the talker as he makes some deals as backup. Obviously a lot would have to be abstracted in the lead-up, but that just means there's room for the heist itself to be the centerpiece.

And yeah, you'd absolutely need the party to be working together both IC and OOC, but Discord and other chat programs make that pretty easy these days. The biggest problem is needing players that work well with each other, which is always the hardest part of tabletop gaming.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

What could I do to give the party something resembling a fighting chance?

Bombs. A little bit of gunpowder goes a long way. Can be smuggled in separately or even set beforehand. The only thing they have to do is make sure the target is in position when the fuse is set and he stays there. Characters can escape in the resulting confusion. Alternately, the bomb can be the distraction, allowing the players to infiltrate the target's estate another way and end him while everyone is distracted.

If guns are available or you have someone who is good at bows (or both), a good old fashioned sniper assassination could work if someone manages to get the target to a position he can be sniped from. Guns are loud, but have better range, while a bow is quiet, but might require you to be closer to the target. Highly situational, at it depends on you having a good vantage point to snipe from.

The good old honey trap is also an option. If a party member is a girl, simply have her seduce the target. He can then be led to a location away from guests and guards and disposed of any number of ways. Hiding a blade inside, say, a hairpin, is a classic trick. A garrote is also a classic method of pulling this off. Depends on if the target's horniness outweighs his paranoia.

 

[Wallace]

Random bit of possible off-topic, but I've always wanted a heist-centered campaign along the lines of Payday, with lots of pre-planning and laying the groundwork before the big day, with all sorts of opportunity costs for players to get rid of complications or cause them. Everyone from social players to heavies gets to shine in a situation like that, whether its turning someone into an inside man or just looking angrily at anyone who might cause problems, and if problems do happen acting as Plan B or talking the cops into giving up enough that you can slip away with your ill-gotten gains.

Try the Leverage RPG. That game deals with what you're looking for.

 

[ZMOT]

Try the Leverage RPG. That game deals with what you're looking for.

so who's gonna play parker?

 

[Wormy]

Try the Leverage RPG. That game deals with what you're looking for.

Heat: The game? I'm IN!

 

[The Ugly One]

I had players who aren't min-maxers complain that 5e is restrictive because you either put everything you can into your main stat, or you feel like you're not playing the game right or are holding back the party.

If the party is regularly being BTFO, the problem will not be fixed via a whole extra 5% chance to hit.

I think it's hilarious how Mearls et al compressed the stats specifically so that you didn't have to max your main attack stat if you didn't want to, and all that happened is that people act like having 7.3% less DPR cripples a character.

In 4e and 3.5, if you didn't understand the system, you could pretty easily make a character that flat out did not work. This is basically impossible in 5e. Even if you're an absolute mong who makes a Wizard with 10 INT, most monsters will still fail about half their saves.

 

[Ghostse]

In 4e and 3.5, if you didn't understand the system, you could pretty easily make a character that flat out did not work. This is basically impossible in 5e. Even if you're an absolute mong who makes a Wizard with 10 INT, most monsters will still fail about half their saves.

4e you have to actively fuck yourself to make a non-viable character.

 

[Buckaroo]

In 4e if you didn't understand the system, you could pretty easily make a character that flat out did not work.

Fucking how? WotC even put out bandaid feats to make less viable builds functional for 4e. You would have to be either illiterate or playing with a faggot DM that wants to win to not have a functional character. Or make a Seeker, but who would do something that stupid?

 

[Cpt. Stud Beefpile]

I had players who aren't min-maxers complain that 5e is restrictive because you either put everything you can into your main stat, or you feel like you're not playing the game right or are holding back the party.

Eh, IDK about that, I'll trade them for the rules-kludge lunacy that made a housecat able to kill a wizard in one-to-one combat.

 

[anti SJW]

 

[The Ugly One]

4e you have to actively fuck yourself to make a non-viable character.

With the way monster defenses scale, if you don't put that +2 into your main every time it comes available, your character will be unplayable by about level 20. Plus there's that weapon attack roll feat that becomes +3 at high level.

This is, from experience, not obvious to every player. If a group didn't engage with online discussions at all, they may not have even been aware of some of the feats in later splats that patched certain problems.

 

[Ghostse]

With the way monster defenses scale, if you don't put that +2 into your main

My nigga, did you ever actually play 4e? You never get a +2, your +1 to two different stats twice each tier.

 

[JJLiautaud]

View attachment 4180525

I love how in og traveler you could die in character gen.

 

[Seven Devil Wolf]

With the way monster defenses scale, if you don't put that +2 into your main every time it comes available, your character will be unplayable by about level 20. Plus there's that weapon attack roll feat that becomes +3 at high level.

This is, from experience, not obvious to every player. If a group didn't engage with online discussions at all, they may not have even been aware of some of the feats in later splats that patched certain problems.

I'd say this is much more of a 5e thing - while 4e had it to some extent (the game was built that you only ever needed three stats, with one being the primary - one for the three saves, usually something like Dex, Con and Wis), there's never a reason not to max out your main stat in 5e. It's the only way to increase damage, to increase hit chance and your main skills beyond levelling. If your Rogue doesn't have Dex 20 by 4th or 8th level in 5e, you're just gimping yourself for no real reason, because it literally covers nearly every major skill, your attack, your damage, your AC and 80% of saves in the game.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I'd say this is much more of a 5e thing - while 4e had it to some extent (the game was built that you only ever needed three stats, with one being the primary - one for the three saves, usually something like Dex, Con and Wis), there's never a reason not to max out your main stat in 5e. It's the only way to increase damage, to increase hit chance and your main skills beyond levelling. If your Rogue doesn't have Dex 20 by 4th or 8th level in 5e, you're just gimping yourself for no real reason, because it literally covers nearly every major skill, your attack, your damage, your AC and 80% of saves in the game.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face: Dexterity is way too fucking overbudgeted in 5e. It was bad enough in 3.5e, but at least there you didn't also get to add your Dex bonus to damage.

This all just a symptom of a deeper structural issue, though. Since everybody uses either standard array or point buy, and therefore can choose precisely how to distribute their stats, optimization becomes mandatory instead of just being a "nice to have" thing. Back when rolling all your stats (or worse, rolling them in order) was the norm and you had to adjust your build to your stats and not the other way around, you compensated for any low stat with gear instead. But with 5e's attunement system (which in itself is not bad, since it helps curb some of the magical item hoarding that was rampant in 3.5e), your power is now usually squarely centered on your character's stats and class features so that Amulet of Health is taking the space of a Robe of the Archmage.

No system is perfect, of course. AD&D was a wonky-ass system in places. But I admit I've been getting tired of 5e's bullshit, and I've played enough 3.5e that I really don't feel like going back to it either.

 

[Seven Devil Wolf]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face: Dexterity is way too fucking overbudgeted in 5e. It was bad enough in 3.5e, but at least there you didn't also get to add your Dex bonus to damage.

This all just a symptom of a deeper structural issue, though. Since everybody uses either standard array or point buy, and therefore can choose precisely how to distribute their stats, optimization becomes mandatory instead of just being a "nice to have" thing. Back when rolling all your stats (or worse, rolling them in order) was the norm and you had to adjust your build to your stats and not the other way around, you compensated for any low stat with gear instead. But with 5e's attunement system (which in itself is not bad, since it helps curb some of the magical item hoarding that was rampant in 3.5e), your power is now usually squarely centered on your character's stats and class features so that Amulet of Health is taking the space of a Robe of the Archmage.

No system is perfect, of course. AD&D was a wonky-ass system in places. But I admit I've been getting tired of 5e's bullshit, and I've played enough 3.5e that I really don't feel like going back to it either.

Yeah, I get that - I've not played much 2e or OSR, but it certainly did make you choose a bit differently when your Rogue had poor Strength and good Dexterity, meaning backstabbing Thief was probably not a great choice in earlier editions.

I'd say it's a problem in 5e in general. Almost everything is built with one stat in mind. Fighter? Strength. Just wear heavy armour, Dex 10, you'll never need Dex. Rogue? High Dex. Warlock? You can just use Charisma for combat, and for blasts. Wizard? You just need Intelligence for all your skills and blasting. The only stat which breaks this mold is Constitution, because everyone wants more HP (and then some like Barbarian still double dip it, meaning there's no reason not to be a Con 20 Barbarian)

EDIT: In addition, part of the issue is your attributes now -are- your character. Outside of attributes or level, there is no progression. You cannot be someone who uses a longsword and not have high Strength - there's no Eladrin Weapon Proficiency for +2 to hit with longswords. You get Proficiency and Strength. That's it. Low level and poor Strength? Tough shit. If you got good Dex, pick up a rapier. Otherwise, you're gonna have to dip into something like Bladelock to switch out to your 20 Cha to hit.