Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Ghostse]

Any deal they had would have been under the old OGL. Same with Paizo or any other company that makes officially licensed products. There won't be any issues immediately. But when the current deals expire, and a new deal needs to be negotiated, I can imagine we will see gritting and gnashing of teeth the likes of which hasn't been seen before. At that point, it will be interesting to see where things go.

Read the fine print - the OGL 1.0 or 1.1 is superseded if you work out another deal with Wizards for D&D content. I know never say never when it comes corporate idiocy/WOTC being greedy short-sighted tards, but the only way this factors into that is if they renegotiate the deal, and right now CritRole holds all the cards there - thye don't need D&D, they just need a system and if Wizards jerks them around, they'll switch to a new one. and one can presume if they switch, their legions of simps will also buy a bunch of those books for games they'll never run. As I understand it they ditched Pathfinder to move to 5e, so I'm sure Paizo would willingly do all sorts of unnatural acts to get them to switch to PF 2e.
It would be HILARIOUS to watch, but I can only assume - since there are minimal scandals in CR realm, nothing that'll get anyone canceled - that there is at least one adult at WotC in charge of a licensing deal that big and they aren't going to let that pooch get screwed.

Paizo is likely to tell Wizards to go suck their dick; they have their own distribution network for Pathfinder content. But its hard to tell; Paizo apparently did bend the knee and were one of the few 3rd parties to put out 4e content. They recently started publishing 5e - compatible modules.
More than likely, Paizo is big enough with their own lawyers to work out their own separate deal if it comes down to it, since they are woke as fuck so won't have any issues with content curation, just IP/royalties.
Or they may stay the course - stay with the OGL, and position themselves as the new lighthouse keepers of 5e and hope for future grogbucks.

But the other thing they're doing is trying to kill off the OSR. It's cleverly worded. Most small RPG companies are woke and won't be affected much, if at all. But companies like Autarch will have to abide by the ban on "racism" and "transphobia," which will be enforced as objectively as Twitter "trust & safety" policy, and ultimately have their business destroyed no matter what they do. Either they alienate their current fans, or get booted from DTRPG. Either way, guys like Macris and RPG Pundit are going to be flushed out of the industry, or at least that's the goal.

Kickstarter is happy to pull projects that the Cool People complain about, so they'll comply as well. Too much money in D&D-related projects.

Possibly; OSR systems have been referring to "The worlds most popular roleplaying game" since at least 5e came out. They are not making content for modern editions so Wizards has about zero pull with them, and their products are usually in their own little sub areas of DTRPG under "D&D OGL". Wizards will have other fish to fry, and while DTRPG is Wizard's cuck-bitch for D&D content, the current management has been pretty adamant about remaining a neutral distributor.
That is, unless Autarch is releasing modules and calling them D&D 1e/2e modules, they will probably be immune from this fuckery unless they willingly sign the OGL 1.1, as they using zero Wizards IP. Worst case, the "D&D OGL" just becomes renamed something else and is spun off into its own ghetto, with D&D OGL being popualted only by OGL-1.1 content.

Its also possible the entire 3rd party ecosystem revolts and Wizards is forced to walk this back, but it'll be some dark times until then.

tl;dr: Its hard to tell. This is such a such a bad idea its hard to tell what they are thinking because no reasonable, rational person came up with this plan. 4e didn't kill the 3rd party market, but it did some serious damage. OGL-1.1 will do the same, and probably be walked back when people get sick of D&Done's paypiggery.

 

[The Ugly One]

And as said before, this won't do anything but hurt the entire industry. A literal circular firing squad. This shit didn't work when 4e was a thing, it won't work now. Guys like Macris and RPG Pundit will find other ways to sell their works and profit, nor do I think Kickstarter will give that much of shit to take any action. The money in D&D is drying up, and shit ain't selling like it used to. This is a fools errand and any attempt to go after anyone directly will lead to court cases Wizards will lose because they have no legal leg to stand on.

It's not so simple. Hasbro is likely negotiating with anyone who would have the money to fight them in court. According to people who know things, the minimum cost of fighting a legal battle like this is $500K, and if you don't get some kind of rapid judgment, it quickly gets into the millions. Companies like Autarch don't have millions to spend on legal fees, so they're likely to capitulate one way or another, maybe by trying to release a new game that doesn't tread on D&D's toes.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Hasbro is likely negotiating with anyone who would have the money to fight them in court.

Likely, yes. Whether those negotiations go anywhere is another matter entirely. And whether Wizards want to fight this in court at all, is a bigger question. Its not just a matter of money either. This is a PR nightmare waiting to happen. The general consensus among the public has been "Fuck you, Wizards", even among lefty types. A high profile court case is just more bad PR they don't really need. And they don't really gain anything from enforcing this. Anyone who doesn't want to fight this in court will just walk away from D&D entirely, which will just lead to support for the system drying up, leading to its slow death from dearth of support, just like 4e. Its a no win situation, no matter where it goes. The industry is not defined by D&D and every company that makes D&D/D20 related products also makes other things besides that. They don't have all their eggs in one basket. The 4e fiasco should have shown them this, but some lessons have to be relearned, it seems.

Read the fine print - the OGL 1.0 or 1.1 is superseded if you work out another deal with Wizards for D&D content.

Which is why I figure that most companies will say "Fuck you" and not make out a new deal. At best, they will use the original OGL and produce content under that. At worst, they say "So long" to D&D entirely.

right now CritRole holds all the cards there - thye don't need D&D, they just need a system and if Wizards jerks them around, they'll switch to a new one. and one can presume if they switch, their legions of simps will also buy a bunch of those books for games they'll never run. As I understand it they ditched Pathfinder to move to 5e, so I'm sure Paizo would willingly do all sorts of unnatural acts to get them to switch to PF 2e.
It would be HILARIOUS to watch, but I can only assume - since there are minimal scandals in CR realm, nothing that'll get anyone canceled - that there is at least one adult at WotC in charge of a licensing deal that big and they aren't going to let that pooch get screwed.

Critical role started playing Pathfinder and only moved to 5e later. They actually had to homebrew an entirely new class (one of the original characters was a gunslinger, a class that only exists in PF) in order to make the move. I can easily see them simply going back to Pathfinder 2e at a later date. Considering the general reaction to this announcement, they actually might be encouraged to do so. Why even bother negotiating with Wizards at all when there are perfectly usable alternatives that already exist? And they could swing it in such a way as them socking it to "The Man" and the big, greedy corporation, to look like underdog heroes to their lefty fanbase.

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

According to the new OGL, it "only allows for creation of roleplaying games and supplements in printed media and static electronic file formats. It does not allow for anything else, including but not limited to things like videos, virtual tabletops or VTT campaigns, computer games, novels, apps, graphics novels, music, songs, dances, and pantomimes." WotC also notes that creators can still engage with these activities, but only to the extent that the company's Fan Content Policy allows or through a separate agreement between the maker and Wizards.

By WotC's definition, fan content includes "fan art, videos, podcasts, blogs, websites, streaming content, tattoos, altars to your cleric's deity, etc." It's unclear how this might impact popular lets plays like Critical Role or Dimension 20. WotC's new OGl also explicitly prohibits content that contains anything bigoted, racist, homophobic, transphobic or discriminatory.

THIS is the big part.

WotC is moving to paypig model sales.

This lets them put the kibosh on ANYTHING.

. It does not allow for anything else, including but not limited to things like videos, virtual tabletops or VTT campaigns, computer games, novels, apps, graphics novels, music, songs, dances, and pantomimes."

They don't want YOU to put out your virtual tabletop game without their permission. You can't do videos of you playing the game without their permission. You can't make apps, write novels, make shitty games.

You can't even make a gay little song and do a shitty dance.

Seriously, look at that.

WotC also notes that creators can still engage with these activities, but only to the extent that the company's Fan Content Policy allows or through a separate agreement between the maker and Wizards.

They saw how much money some of these YouTube streams make and want their cut of the money.

Same shit that really pushed the 4E OGL.

WotC's new OGl also explicitly prohibits content that contains anything bigoted, racist, homophobic, transphobic or discriminatory.

No orcs. No dwarves. No gnomes. No slavery. No inter-species racism.

This is the funniest shit I've seen in my life.

You know all the dick suckers are lining right up to claim how great it is.

You can't even be bigoted against the goblins that burn down your fucking city every year.

This is about CONTROL and it is about MONEY. That's it.

They don't want people to stream. They don't want people to make things for their products because they want total control.

I saw this shit coming years ago.

Now with THEIR virtual tabletop and rumors that you HAVE to be part of their gay "always online" bullshit, they can now suspend your game product licenses if they don't like how you play.

They can tell YouTube or Twitch to cancel your channel.

It's all about control and money.

Fan Content Policy | Wizards of the Coast

Wizards of the Coast Fan Content Policy.

company.wizards.com

Last Updated: November 15, 2017

Download and archive this shit, because they'll be changing it soon.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

THIS is the big part.

WotC is moving to paypig model sales.

This lets them put the kibosh on ANYTHING.

They are going the Nintendo route. They want to be able to take down anyone who even plays their games on Youtube (or Twitch, for that matter) unless they personally approve it. Its doomed to backfire and only engender bad blood. It will also ensure that nobody will play their games online, which will just mean an end to free advertising, like CR. Which is exactly what happened to Nintendo, and why they pulled back from their Partner's policy; because it completely backfired.

You know all the dick suckers are lining right up to claim how great it is.

Actually, as far as I've seen, this is genuinely UNIVERSALLY HATED. Like, by everyone, from all sides of the political spectrum. Nobody likes this. That just tells you how bad it is.

 

[Ghostse]

Critical role started playing Pathfinder and only moved to 5e later. They actually had to homebrew an entirely new class (one of the original characters was a gunslinger, a class that only exists in PF) in order to make the move. I can easily see them simply going back to Pathfinder 2e at a later date. Considering the general reaction to this announcement, they actually might be encouraged to do so. Why even bother negotiating with Wizards at all when there are perfectly usable alternatives that already exist? And they could swing it in such a way as them socking it to "The Man" and the big, greedy corporation, to look like underdog heroes to their lefty fanbase.

That's what I mean. CR hopped systems before, they can hop again if WotC tries to fuck with them.

Regarding the reactions, I think you over estimate A) How much the average normie gives a shit about this and B) how many non-normies actually watch CR.

 

[The Ugly One]

So, to summarize, Mike Mearls led the creation of the most commercially successful RPG of all time, in part because he had WotC engage with the RPG community to degree it hadn't really ever done before, including letting people make money by streaming gameplay without asking for a cut. He's been run out because he didn't hate Republicans enough, and now they've got a new sheriff in town. She (of course lmao) is going to crack down on the bigots, stop people from having fun without WotC's permission, and ensure every time you meet to play, WotC gets a payout.

Execs think it will be just as successful as 5e, because they think sales come from the Magic Sales Fairy.

 

[Ghostse]

Execs think it will be just as successful as 5e, because they think sales come from the Magic Sales Fairy.

They are making the exact same mistake leadership made for 4e:
They assume anyone playing physical games are retarded paypigs to the level MTG players are.

 

[Judge Dredd]

What do you guys think of the Starfinder campaign Horizons of the Vast?

While looking for players (my current group has basically evaporated) I came across a DM who was enthusiastic about running it. He described it as "Kingmaker in space" where you fight eldritch abominations. I signed up, but I've not heard from anyone involved for a while and it's looking like he's going to be running an Ironclaw game instead.

I'm tempted to get the Horizons of the Vast pdfs and run the game myself, but it's a lot of reading and Paizo is notoriously woke.


Another question. What would be good to run a TMNT game? I know Mutants of the Now is TMNT with the serial number filed off, and I know of the Palladium game that I'm told is deeply flawed. There's a Saturday morning cartoon expansion for Spycraft, but I've not read that. And there's always Savage Worlds, but my concern is the melee combat in that won't make the different weapons and martial arts distinct enough.

 

[ShitLurker]

I'm just amazed at D&D being that relevant. Those faggots make it impossible to stream D&D "goblins are our friends, let them rape the barman's daughter"? OK, fuck you, we stream Vampire, or Elric, or Dark Heresy, or Cthullu, or a some shit we made up with the GURPS ruleset, or L5Rings, or 7th Sea, or Iron Kingdoms and so much more.

D&D is fine for kiddie's first TRPG or for dungeon crawling campaigms but so many systems have so much more potential.

 

[Ghostse]

Another question. What would be good to run a TMNT game? I know Mutants of the Now is TMNT with the serial number filed off, and I know of the Palladium game that I'm told is deeply flawed. There's a Saturday morning cartoon expansion for Spycraft, but I've not read that. And there's always Savage Worlds, but my concern is the melee combat in that won't make the different weapons and martial arts distinct enough.

That's a tough one. Only being aware of it in generalities, I'd select Spycraft expansion since I'm assuming we're doing TV-turtles and not Comic Book turtles, so you'd really just to collaboratively direct an episode of a TV show and not worry about how many points of damage your katana did to Shredder.

It really, really REALLY hurts me to say this, but maybe homebrew your own PbtA clone for this. It would let you make each turtle distinct (or at least have character specific names for things) and since PbtA is about archetypes where you play in a story and they don't really level up ... that's pretty much the TMNT.
PbtA Its a dumb system for dumb people, but I think that might just be the doctor ordered for playing a saturday morning cartoon.

What do you guys think of the Starfinder campaign Horizons of the Vast?

While looking for players (my current group has basically evaporated) I came across a DM who was enthusiastic about running it. He described it as "Kingmaker in space" where you fight eldritch abominations. I signed up, but I've not heard from anyone involved for a while and it's looking like he's going to be running an Ironclaw game instead.

I'm tempted to get the Horizons of the Vast pdfs and run the game myself, but it's a lot of reading and Paizo is notoriously woke.

I'd nope on principal; Sci-Fi RPGs never work for me because ranged weapons not feeling right in RPGs.
And if I didn't nope on that, I'd nope on Starfinder specifically because fuck Paizo. And is that the starter campaign? Campaign is super woke, the first mission is apparently escorting some strong black woman to yell at her white college professor because while he was factually right, she was triggered by his microaggressions as a colonial oppressor.

Vampire, [...] Cthullu, [ ...] GURPS [...] L5Rings, or 7th Sea

Son I have some terrible news for you.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

You know all the dick suckers are lining right up to claim how great it is.

If they are, I sure as fuck haven't seen them. Even the RPGnet fags are looking at this askance.

@The Demon Pimp of Razgriz is absolutely right. This is not going to make them any friends and -- hand me a rainbow here -- it could lead to a temporary truce in the goddamned cultural conflicts in RPGs as everyone turns on fucking WotC. It's that silly LOTR meme with Legolas and Gimli all over again.

Now, do they have a legal leg to stand on? Fucked if I know.

I do know this is pissing people off left, right, and center.

 

[ShitLurker]

Son I have some terrible news for you.

What? Do all have super cereal legal clamps as well? Or did they go woke as well? Because last I checked those 20 year old books still have the same text and nobody says my campaign has to use the newest iteration.

 

[anti SJW]

Another question. What would be good to run a TMNT game? I know Mutants of the Now is TMNT with the serial number filed off, and I know of the Palladium game that I'm told is deeply flawed. There's a Saturday morning cartoon expansion for Spycraft, but I've not read that. And there's always Savage Worlds, but my concern is the melee combat in that won't make the different weapons and martial arts distinct enough.

 

[anti SJW]

 

[Kane Lives]

Nobody likes this thing. I see people from across the goddamned spectrum (figuratively and literally) saying 'This is shit'. I see people that talk about fucking Thirsty Sword Lesbians in glowing terms say 'Fuck WotC, not giving them one more dime'. I've had two people ask me privately (not here) about piracy options against WotC.

And that's just bog standard gamers.

I know not a lot of people here like Critical Role, but the fanbase is fucking rabid. Imagine the shitstorm if WotC goes head to head with CR.

Agreed on this. Everyone who I know is vaguely involved in RPGs are appalled by this. And while @Ghostse is right that the average normie player won't give a shit about this, all it takes is someone with reach like Critical Role giving the middle finger to start a stampede for the doors. Sheeple won't give a shit, but they sure will follow the herd when it comes down to it.

 

[Randall Fragg]

We may need a separate thread for Wizards of the Coast’s fuck ups.

 

[anti SJW]

 

[Judge Dredd]

View attachment 4211372

That appears to be the Palladium game. I've never read it, but from what I heard from someone who played it a lot, it has some serious problems. From the way he tells it, his campaigns would always end up similar to Spoony's squirtgun wars video, but with dynamite instead of DMSO.

I have read the Palladium game After The Bomb (mutants in the apocalypse) and wasn't impressed with that book.

I didn't realize there were so many expansions for it until I googled it. Unless they really expanded the martial arts rules I'd likely just use those books for fluff.

I'm assuming we're doing TV-turtles and not Comic Book turtles

No one read the comics. Though I remember a YouTube video talking about the recent comic output leaning heavily in a sci-fi direction.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Or did they go woke as well?

That one. And, as a result, most of them suck now as well.