Misogyny

[Cosmos]

Disclaimer: In this thread, we're not talking about what Twitter feminists scream when anyone criticizes them. We're talking about genuine hatred, distrust, and/or anger towards the female gender as a whole.

Why do you think misogyny was so prevalent throughout history? And why are so many parts of the world still so misogynistic today? It's generally accepted by most anthropologists that women were originally relegated to the "stay in the kitchen" role while the men did the more dangerous work because, biologically speaking, men are more expendable than women (in other words, a population consisting of 1 man and 100 women is far more likely to survive than a population of 1 woman and 100 men). But why (and how) did this devolve into a mindset that men are superior and women are inferior?

Moreover, why does such deep misogyny still persist in many parts of the world? In many places, the birth of a girl is not met with celebration but disappointment and mourning, because only boys are worth anything. In fact, girls are worth so little that more than 160 million women and girls are "missing" from Asia, having been the victims of sex-selective abortions, infanticide, or abuse/neglect. Honor killings are all too common, with thousands of girls being murdered every single year by their own families, who value their "honor" above the lives of their daughters, mothers, and sisters. Thousands of women are the victims of acid throwing, bride burning, and female genital mutilation. Worse still, these crimes all too often go unpunished, with many cultural attitudes dictating that men are allowed to do whatever they want to women.

Do you see an end to this gender-based violence any time soon, or do you believe such blatant misogyny will continue to persist for many more decades or even centuries?

 

[Cunty Boo Boo]

I think there are a lot of questions being asked in this post. I'll try to break it down as a see it. (For the record, yes, I'm a feminist. But I'm willing to see others' points of views as long as they're not jerks about it. And women who complain about manspreading should be slapped, seriously.)

Why do you think misogyny was so prevalent throughout history? And why are so many parts of the world still so misogynistic today? It's generally accepted by most anthropologists that women were originally relegated to the "stay in the kitchen" role while the men did the more dangerous work because, biologically speaking, men are more expendable than women (in other words, a population consisting of 1 man and 100 women is far more likely to survive than a population of 1 woman and 100 men). But why (and how) did this devolve into a mindset that men are superior and women are inferior?

Short answer: sexual dimorphism.

Back in caveman times, later when we were hunter-gatherers but more civilized...really up until oh? The 20th century, men were in a position of power because overall, men are more physically powerful than women. Back when we were a new species, men were the ones in charge because they were the ones able to protect women, while women were given the role of homemakers because they not only carried children, but were able to feed them from their bodies (while no alternative resource for feeding infants existed).

As to why it still exists today: Think of of it this way. The Republicans were the ones who created the Patriot Act. But when the Democrats took office, they not only didn't abolish it, but made it stronger. Why? Because once someone has power, they're not going to give it up willingly.

Do you see an end to this gender-based violence any time soon, or do you believe such blatant misogyny will continue to persist for many more decades or even centuries?

I really don't. As someone who is very outspoken about human trafficking (especially that it happens in first world western countries, not just third world countries), I don't see it ending anytime soon. Probably ever. In a lot of ways, while it's definitely violence against women, I think this is more just a problem of really evil and misguided people existing.

I think it's like racism. While it will get better every generation, it will never be eradicated. But then, I think that's the same for violence as a whole.

 

[NeverHappened]

I say we stop dumping weapons and money on backwards countries. It's just reinforcing the power structure.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

I think that the root of misogyny is in monogamous civilization. It all goes back to that males are the mate limited sex and females are the resource limited sex (which is just the biological definition of male and female in evolutionary history so sexual inversion still exists in seahorses). This means that in prehistoric times men were invested in trying to impress mates and women were invested in finding resources for their children. At that time it would have manifested as women getting the resources that were easy to obtain and men taking large risks in order to obtain difficult resources as a form of sexual display as well as engaging in dueling and the like. Most men would have either died trying to impress women or died as permavirgins. In this society women had a large amount of power for the reason that they ran most of society and men existed relatively on the outskirts of society. Successful men would have had a large amount of power in the society too (likely more than the average woman but the average power of all women and all men born would be roughly the same or give an advantage to women). This changed when the advent of agriculture lead to more egalitarian societies in which there was a steady food supply. At that point the economy became defined by long continuous labour which required a larger population and was less risky for males. At this point men began to be more equal among each other and it transformed their dominance instincts into a belief that women were inferior.

I think that female infanticide is merely an irrational evolutionary strategy that prefers sons because of their possibility to have lots of descendants without realizing that the Nash Equillibrium is actually having an equal investment in sons and daughters (numbers don't matter but total investment matters) but this error is likely facilitated by cultural norms that developed from lower male mortality. Likewise I think honor killings are simply a manifestation of people not realizing that they are genetically invested in their daughters perhaps increased due to surnames.

I think that FGM comes from a combination of not realizing that one has genetic investment in one's daughter and just wanting to "sell" her (lower risk of infidelity increases sexual market value) and also from some mistaken beliefs that are in genuine consideration for her (such as that she would be able to take care of her children better from it)

I don't think that feminism or some sort of pseudophilosophical popular ideology that we call "learning from history" or societal progress has caused a reduction in misogyny in the west but rather that the fundamental change in the material conditions of western society that has occurred with a significant increase in the productivity of labour has resulted in human life being expendable again and thus men are less universally successful and are unable to be as oppressive anymore. We see that men tend to go into riskier professions now and women tend to go into safer ones. This will likely manifest in women maintaining much of the global infrastructure and doing jobs like teaching whereas men tend towards risky jobs that rely more on innovation and have a high rate of failure because with the advent of polygyny male reproductive success will be all or nothing in a way analogous to elephant seals.

I think that gender based violence in particular is going to go more towards murders of males as interference with other males becomes the best sexual strategy for males in the future and humans become more literate and able to realize that violence against women is a bad idea

EDIT: to clarify the type of polygyny I am advocating is a matrilocal polygyny in which women have a large degree of autonomy and live completely independently of their husbands rather than patriolcal polygyny in which women live their their husbands and his fellow wives and lose their autonomy

 

[Vitriol]

There is no causal link between monogamy and mysogny indeed polyamory is a common feature of mysogynistic cultures.

Aside from that I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[AnOminous]

There is no causal link between monogamy and mysogny indeed polyamory is a common feature of mysogynistic cultures.

Polyamory in general is not such a feature, but a very specific kind of it, which is polygyny or polygamy (or both), generally reserved for a few males, and often tiered so that "wives" are on a higher tier than "concubines," although both are essentially chattel.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

I am very skeptical that misogyny still exists in western society after women gained the ability to vote. I do not consider gender differentiation to be misogynistic but rather only things which disproportionately infringe upon the autonomy of women (such as the rest cure)

And men taking more risks isn't misogyny either even though it means they sometimes get greater payoffs from it

 

[Andy27]

I am very skeptical that misogyny still exists in western society

Even with the most basic definition of misogyny (i.e. hatred of women), there are at the very least several people who fit the description - see the loveshy sub-forum for a few of those.

 

[Coldgrip]

Even with the most basic definition of misogyny (i.e. hatred of women), there are at the very least several people who fit the description - see the loveshy sub-forum for a few of those.

Several people? Yes. Western society as whole? No.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Even with the most basic definition of misogyny (i.e. hatred of women), there are at the very least several people who fit the description - see the loveshy sub-forum for a few of those.

I forget that most people don't use the definition of power plus prejudice

 

[AnOminous]

I forget that most people don't use the definition of power plus prejudice

Only retards use that made up definition, which only exists so that non-white racists have an excuse to act shitty.

 

[Pepsi-Cola]

imo the root of misogyny is a mixture of frustration and over sexualization, men have a bad habit of feeling entitled to sex, and entitled to a relationship, and the extreme sexualization of women in our society is only fueling this constant lust that people feel. Basically, we just need to teach young men early on that women aren't just there for your own pleasure if that makes any sense.

 

[Andy27]

Several people? Yes. Western society as whole? No.

Agreed. I was only responding to whether misogyny exists within modern Western societies, I certainly don't consider current Western societies as a whole to be misogynistic.

 

[Trans Fat 41g]

imo the root of misogyny is a mixture of frustration and over sexualization, men have a bad habit of feeling entitled to sex, and entitled to a relationship, and the extreme sexualization of women in our society is only fueling this constant lust that people feel. Basically, we just need to teach young men early on that women aren't just there for your own pleasure if that makes any sense.

I agree but this behavior seems hardwired into the human race in general...

 

[Frank_Jaeger]

Only retards use that made up definition, which only exists so that non-white racists have an excuse to act shitty.

All definitions are "made up," but the power+prejudice definition is the one backed by academic theory and research.

 

[KingGeedorah]

It's just gay dudes lashing out. How could you hate a woman? That shit made you.

 

[Derbydollar]

Identity creates rifts among people, Sex especially. It's a characteristic all of us have. I see a lot of people refer to the diametric sex like some kind of alien species or whatever, and it's really stupid.
If the only defining characteristic among individuals was their preference of color, the people who liked the color red would keep all those stupid blue admirers in the kitchen and have green social cleansing programs.

There won't ever be an end to discrimination because humans are wired for it. The best we can do as people is remain vigilant, make sure that we aren't the ones doing wrong by others, and call out people's BS.

 

[The Nothingness]

There won't ever be an end to discrimination because humans are wired for it. The best we can do as people is remain vigilant, make sure that we aren't the ones doing wrong by others, and call out people's BS.

Exactly! And not just discrimination when it comes to skin color, sex, or who you're attracted to. Discrimination based on thought and beliefs are not only vibrant but even talked about when it comes to defining "discrimination". And with peer pressure from society, you either conform or be ostracized.

 

[Cosmos]

It's just gay dudes lashing out. How could you hate a woman? That shit made you.

That's what always boggles my mind, the sheer disrespect and contempt for the gender that carried you and every other human for nine months before giving you life. Show some fucking respect.

Back in ancient Sparta, only two types of Spartan citizens were gifted with headstones when they died: men who died in battle, and women who died in childbirth. Female Spartan babies were as well fed as their male counterparts, in contrast to the situation in Athens, where boys were better fed than girls, in order to have physically fit women to carry children and give birth. Spartan girls were educated and engaged in exercise as well, instead of being cloistered away like their Athenian sisters. And because Spartan men spent much of their time living in barracks or at war, it was up to Spartan women to keep things afloat back home. In fact, women were given so much power and respect (nothing like we see today, mind you, but for ancient Greece it was revolutionary) that great thinkers like Aristotle actually thought that Sparta would fall within 50 years because it had become a "gynocracy."

So why was Sparta so progressive when it came to women's rights, especially in regards to the more "enlightened" Athens? When questioned "Why are you Spartan women the only ones who can rule men?," Queen Gorgo of Sparta answered "Because we are also the only ones who give birth to men." Sparta may have been a militaristic, male-dominated, and ruthless culture, but it showed a very surprising amount of respect towards women. After all, without Spartan women there wouldn't be any Spartan men.

It's too bad that Sparta is one of the only cultures who's figured that out. Basically every patriarchal culture today shows complete contempt for women for not being men... while completely ignoring the fact that if there were no women there wouldn't be anyone to give birth to their precious sons.

 

[AnOminous]

It's too bad that Sparta is one of the only cultures who's figured that out. Basically every patriarchal culture today shows complete contempt for women for not being men... while completely ignoring the fact that if there were no women there wouldn't be anyone to give birth to their precious sons.

As an Athensfag I was pretty amazed by this post, having usually just thought of Spartans as moronic barbarians. Yeah, I knew that's pretty stereotypical and that most such critiques of culture are by those who didn't like that culture much, but I'd always thought of the prominence of figures like Aspasia in Athenian society and contrasted them to the nearly barbaric Spartans.

I hadn't really thought of Gorgo much. Not even to have Wikipedia level knowledge.

What does Wikipedia say?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgo,_Queen_of_Sparta

"She is notable for being the daughter of a king of Sparta, the wife of another, and the mother of a third."

I suppose that makes her pretty credible.