LSI / Broadcom HBAs and IT mode firmware - where to get for the 9400-16i?

[Jeff Q. Anime]

you decided on a course of action there yet, big boy? I started out with the stuffing-too-many-drives in a regular tower case with tons of SATA cards route, but ended up with a supermicro 846. pretty similar to that netapp case.

also CPU maintenance is literally not a problem lol. there's no reason you would ever need to take the backplate off, they're designed to be easy and fast to swap. those netapp cases aren't even servers though, they're just disk shelves. just a massive case with a SAS expander. no CPU to speak of. you'd plug them into something else.

 

[TheBallPit]

No, I had to spend over $500 a couple of days ago getting a cavity-rotted tooth removed and a filling for the adjacent tooth. I never had a single cavity when I was young, but now that I'm an old man I'm suddenly having dental issues. Go figure.

I'm still leery of getting a server-type case. They require POWERFUL ear-splitting fans that just won't mesh for where it'll be placed (in my living room right next to my TV). They're also built for companies that can instantly replace failing drives as part of their IS/IT budgets. There's a reason why there's a big divide between consumer and enterprise-grade hardware and I don't have thousands of dollars to invest in stuff designed for server rooms, nor the fallback cash should something go awry as a result of purchasing used exotic equipment.

To exacerbate the situation, Scanner just tagged yet another drive in the process of failing a few days ago. It was auto-evacuated, but I can't keep losing drives like this, especially since chia drove prices into the stratosphere. I'm one more hair follicle away from purchasing the Sabrent and being truly committed.

 

[Jeff Q. Anime]

Well, yeah, noise is an issue, but I don't really get what your other complaints are supposed to mean. A server is just a computer... There's nothing really involved in running it that's any different from a normal computer. It's not going to magically fail in a different manner that requires unique intervention + it's easier to swap drives out in a case like that than most normal desktop cases.

https://bitdeals.tech/ is where I source most of my drives - though the deals on SATA are less good than SAS. And you might ask yourself, Mister Anime, why do you trust used drives? Bathtub curve son.

You could ape half of an 846's capacity with consumer hardware... In a very stupid and expensive way!

Get one of these bad boys - https://www.newegg.com/black-anidees-ai-crystal-xl-pro-e-atx-full-tower-case/p/2AM-0035-00059
Stick 4 of these in it - https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rsv-sata-cage-34-hard-disk-drive-cage/p/N82E16816132037

Hell yeah bruther

 

[TheBallPit]

Servers are "computer cases" in only the broadest of sense. They still contain features and technologies that don't exist (or are fairly rare) in the consumer space, like backplanes and port multipliers. Even the concept of bays supporting removable hot-swappable drives isn't something the bog standard computer consumer has knowledge of, much less access to or the need.

And there are other server-grade chassis that only support PSUs that would be considered highly peculiar and specialized to the average enthusiast. And some require arcane cables that you can't buy at your local Best Buy. That's not even getting into supported hard drive types, like SAS versus common SATA.

If I were to go the route you're advocating, I'm back to having to buy an HBA along with a mega-expensive ginormous case that would probably weigh 100 pounds when completely assembled. And the fan count would be much higher, as I'd have to cool all of the components inside the one box and would have to compensate accordingly. Admittedly, the ability to mount any motherboard form factor is quite the draw, but HPTX is really exotic in and of itself, so buying based on that would be pretty sus.

If I had the money, a server rack, a couple of UPS's, and didn't have to worry about the noise issue (which is the lynchpin in all this), I'd be sorely tempted to invest in some sort of Supermicro. I know many of you guys have enterprise backgrounds, are flush with cash, can likely bring up a bash terminal on your refrigerators, and probably live in McMansions with rooms galore so that you can distance yourselves from a thousand screaming Delta fans, but I'm stuck in a relatively small house with a couple of closets that're already filled to capacity. I have to temper my desires and ambitions accordingly.

 

[Jeff Q. Anime]

I'm just not sure why you opened the topic with such an expensive, very new, very enterprise-grade card if you're not really interested in going down a mega-scale route with "exotic" hardware that actually makes use of it.

I slept within spitting distance of my 846 for years! It's passion for the archival grind.

 

[TheBallPit]

Well, I did admit that the more I thought about it, the more conflicted I became about what I should ultimately do. That said, if I did buy an LSI HBA, I'd want it to be a fairly recent one, as older ones could be system pulls. They reportedly get insanely hot and an older heavily-used model could have a much higher chance of later failure (or being outright DOA).

This is also why I wouldn't go near a GPU that's been a mining card. I know Linus Tech Tips would have us believe that they're just fine, good as new, but I don't trust them (the GPUs and LTT).

Plus, like I wrote earlier, I'd want a four-port card instead of the standard two-port because of the lack of expansion slots on modern motherboards.

What sort of fans do you have in your 846 and how populated is it?

 

[Flaming Dumpster]

That said, if I did buy an LSI HBA, I'd want it to be a fairly recent one, as older ones could be system pulls. They reportedly get insanely hot and an older heavily-used model could have a much higher chance of later failure (or being outright DOA).

I've only ever had one LSI HBA just outright fail and it was after I had it for about 2 years and flogged it in my poorly cooled ghetto datacenter. That said, they're so damn cheap I literally had a spare sitting in a heap of expansion cards and since the principle is so simple (make drive appear for OS, no HW RAID), everything "just worked" after I plugged it in.

Plus, like I wrote earlier, I'd want a four-port card instead of the standard two-port because of the lack of expansion slots on modern motherboards.

Maybe look into PCI-E bifurcation?

What sort of fans do you have in your 846 and how populated is it?

I was running a similar server, 3U 16 bay model and it's so fucking loud with such annoying fan hysteresis that I think I'd kill myself if I put it in a living room. There's a video where someone has quietened up the 846 a lot but it basically involves modding it to add extra fans.

https://youtu.be/0UjyL6ZiMkI

I turned on my DS4246 to figure out what the noise was like and it's actually not as bad as I remember. I still wouldn't put it in a living room though so if you live in a pod where no matter where you are, you're within ear shot of the server, then I guess you're fucked.

 

[TheBallPit]

Well, I don't have a bunch of LSI HBA cards just lying around should one go bad. If I did buy one, I'd want it to be something that would carry me into the next decade. That means a relatively new model that has enough ports to make the investment viable for progressive drive additions.

Regarding PCI-E bifurcation and their associated risers, that's just not something I want to get into. It's more hardware and therefore more cost, more complexity, and more headaches. I hate the trend toward less expansion slots to accommodate batshit insane gamers with their Peterbilt-sized GPUs that can cause solar eclipses, but if I want onboard 2.1 HDMI, I've got no choice in the matter. IMO, it's better to not even get comfortable with the idea of using expansion cards at this point since it looks like future motherboards will only sport the one slot for crazy gigantic GPUs.

I watched the video of the guy who heavily modded his 846 and it looked nightmarish. Damned impressive, but I don't have a machine shop in my garage nor the know-how to construct things like completely new fan shrouds from whole cloth. If I were to make the attempt, it would no doubt wind-up looking like a Frankenstein monster that wouldn't attach to anything.

So, yeah, I'm pretty fucked as to what I can have versus what I'd like to have.

 

[Jeff Q. Anime]

What sort of fans do you have in your 846 and how populated is it?

Stock, fully populated with drives (24) and most PCIE slots full. It wasn't too loud to sleep nearby even in the summer without AC with fans on eco-optimal mode!

Consider: You can buy 5-10 extra backups of an older, plentiful card, like an LSI 9211-8i (what I have), for the same price as a 9400-16i!

But I think the most relevant question is: What exactly is your use case for the storage? Extremely high capacity hard drives are hardly cheap - but if you compare their cost to the hardware required to power 2-4x as many lower capacity drives, and how much of a pain in the ass it is to cable a bunch of drives without something sensible like a case with a SAS backplane, they start to make sense! If all you're doing is storing pirated media, you don't really need more than a couple of drives and a mini PC or SBC, even... Or one of those premade bullshit overpriced NAS boxes. I need a wide array for extra IOPS, since I do far more than just archive/seed pirated media (though with the speed I can seed at, seeding does take appreciable IOPS as well). Are you just replacing Netflix? Are you trying to archive the entire (I)nternet? Do you want to host a wildly popular lolcow forum? Are you storing vast quantities of CFD data from your industrial GPU array because you're a rocket startup?

 

[TheBallPit]

Well, you CAN run Deltas in a power-saving eco-type mode without them destroying your eardrums. Problem is that you can't run them like that forever. They'll eventually have to ramp-up at some point, especially if you've got the entire server populated and your enclosure is trying to go supernova. I don't know how you were able to run yours at such a low spin rate, as even my "silent" Noctuas start galloping at 100% and become noticeable at various points in the day as data is being heavily shuffled.

Then again, people have told me I have amazing hearing. This is a little weird given that I have a raging case of Tinnitus and frequency loss in both ears and don't wear hearing aids, but I'll take it.

And remember that, if I were to buy an HBA, I'd HAVE to take into account the current trend of companies offering almost no expansion slots. That means 16i or bust.

My purpose is strictly for media serving. No gaming, which is why I don't need a discrete GPU. And I agree that cabling a bunch of drives without some manner of backplane could easily become a rat's nest nightmare, which is why the Sabrent is so alluring since all it needs is one USB and one power cable. For ten drives! That's almost unbeatable in terms of tidiness.

I also do a bit a of seeding, but likely only a pittance in comparison. I COULD have been satisfied with just two or three high-capacity drives back in the medieval times of 1080p, but a high-bitrate 4K release (which my TV desperately wants to show off) can reach close to 100 gigs when archiving the whole disc via something like AnyDVD.

The days of getting away with just running a handful of 4 or 6 TB drives are over. And God only knows what sort of local storage "solutions" will be available when 8K starts coming down the pipe. Maybe someone will've perfect the much-fabled holographic multi-petabyte drive by then.

 

[Jeff Q. Anime]

That Sabrent DAS thingy looks ~fine~, it is what it is, it would get the job done, though some of the reviews complain about fan noise too. The Midwesterner cries out in pain as a simple SATA dock is priced at the same level as a fully kitted server with 2.4x more bays. What are you planning to run? Windows, Unraid (ew), Linux? MDRAID, BTRFS, ZFS (only correct answer)? You'd certainly want to make sure that you have it hooked up to a real, proper USB 3.2 GEN 2x1 connection.

 

[TheBallPit]

Just Windows with Drivepool in conjunction with Scanner. I don't know squat about RAID strategies, other than the most basic essentially halves your usable space. And the most advanced involves the black magic of striping, which not even direct pleas to Beelzebub will help if a bit winds-up in the wrong place. And just whatever NTFS version comes with Windows 11. I know I'm aiming for the lowest-common denominator of filesystem technologies, but I simply can't risk fooling with stuff for which I have less than zero understanding.

And whatever motherboard I get will have at least one latest-spec USB connection.

I thought about delving into the wild and woolly world of virtualization after watching a few YouTube videos on the subject, but then realized I was being tempted down a dark and mysterious off-ramp from the main highway and would likely wind-up face-down naked in a ditch. If I woke-up one day and the box wouldn't boot or the virtualized machine refused to start, I'd be SOL and I CANNOT be SOL. At least I somewhat know what I'm doing with bog-standard Windows. Even Drivepool kinda gives me goose bumps on occasion, but I need pooling software and I hear Windows' drive spaces is playing with fire.

So, in case it wasn't painfully clear, you're dealing with something of a Luddite who doesn't know anything about Linux and can barely get by with Windows. My days of learning new tricks or being led to water are, for the most part, over. It's a not-so-minor miracle I have things like the arrs and Hydra working.

 

[TheBallPit]

Beware...a zombie thread approaches!

For those interested, I finally purchased the Sabrent and got everything hooked-up over the weekend. Apart from the price, I like it...a lot. It's compact, built like a tank, and the fans are hardly noticeable. It also powers drives in such a way that the 3.3V hack isn't needed when shucking, unlike my Norco. It's trayless, so all you have to do is insert a bare drive and close the latch, which is another big plus over the Norco. I never did like the uber-cheap Norco trays and inserting them in and out of bays was often a chore.

Drivepool and Scanner are working just fine. The only gotcha is that it's a little slow spinning-up everything, so apps like qBt freak-out thinking there's nothing to seed, which just requires a refresh.

Playing 4K movies with MPC-HC or VLC works great, so speed over the USB-C connection must be fantastic. I was able to pull my two ancient Supermicro cards to make room for a spare 1050 Ti, so I also gained the ability to play HDR content (the 1050 Ti supports HDMI 2.0), which I've been dying to do ever since obtaining a 4K HDR-capable TV.

The Sabrent does require pushing every discrete bay power button after a complete power-down of the enclosure, but I doubt I'll be doing that with any regularity. If I had one complaint, it's that the activity lights are very small and you can't really see them at an angle.

Oh, I guess my second complaint would be the MSRP, as it is pretty pricey at $600. However, right now, there's a 10% off special running on Amazon, bringing it down to $540 not including tax:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09TV1XPDD

Of course, you don't have to splurge for the 10-bay monster, as Sabrent also sells a two, four, and five bay version.

So, all in all, I think this is a great alternative to a Supermicro that you'd probably have to modify to some extent for home use.

For the future, I'm now looking at getting rid of the Norco entirely in favor of a micro-ATX system, maybe even an ITX if I can find a motherboard that has onboard HDMI 2.1. I'll probably put the Norco up on eBay as pickup-only since I still have its original Delta fanplane and there's nothing wrong with the backplanes. I doubt the Supermicro cards are of use to anyone given their age and I might gift them to Art of Server if he wants them.

If anyone has any questions about the Sabrent, feel free.