Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association (SFWA) - Nerds protecting nonces

My father told me a story once of being in an Irish Pub in New York and a couple of burly men coming around asking for donations for "the boys fighting the good fight back home" - They meant the IRA. He gave them a twenty to get them to go away, and I always thought it was a kinda funny story, of paying off some fuckheads for peace. Sometime, much later, I was in a bar in SF's Castro with a very poorly chosen friend and some Bears came by collecting for NAMBLA. I thought it was a joke and laughed along with them. It was very quickly made clear to me that it was not a joke and I was going to be at the very least beaten up, if not worse, if I didn't have a suitable donation. I handed over a twenty (something I still regret to this day, Never bend the knee), and tried to laugh off the whole incident with my "friend", who pointed out it should have been obvious what kind of bar it was from the pictures of Harvey Milk and his underage boyfriends in states of undress behind the bar.

NAMBA is the one and only true LGBT movement. Most of those shilling for "gay rights" know it, but also hope their kids will be spared through appeasement.
fake and gay, even Reddit users can write better fiction than this
The fallout from Ed Kramer is why Dragon*Con underwent a rebranding to DragonCon, and while I don't have details I am pretty sure there was a serious shakeup behind the scenes. Which makes me suspect there was more than one problem player shown the door.
Ed Kramer sued DragonCon in 2011 for not receiving his fair share of profits. Wikipedia states that his relationship to the Con was fully severed in 2013 because of a Cash-out merger who also changed the name of the convention. This also coincides with the year Kramer was caught in his home with CP (which the article fails to mention, making me think the Con tried to hush this up as much as they could).

Before any of this even happened though, Kramer had a nasty reputation amongst his coterie. He was arrested in 2000 for molesting teenage boys. He was constantly surrounding himself with juvenile boys all throughout his career. Nasty fucker.
 
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From the bottom of payquasi.lol:
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There doesn't seem to be a sci-fi general thread but it relates to this topic loosely so I'll post it here. I've gotten into Starship Troopers lately and there's a passage in the book that talks about a grunt killing a kid off the army base and the military retrieved him for a hanging, and the book describes how the main character is only sad that the grunt didn't suffer hard enough at the gallows.

I bring this up because I've long suspected Robert Heinlein of being a pedo himself, because of a video I watched from Extra Credits back when they were still credible.


They mention incest being a feature of his work during the time he was ill & near the end of his life, but they don't go any further into it. Part of the reason I was looking into Starship Troopers is because it's the book that lead people to accuse him of being fascist, and nowhere in the book thus far have I seen anything that even remotely approaches it. Even the military fetishism the book is accused of seems absent in light of everyone in the book, recruiter included, attempting to dissuade the main character from joining. I'm about halfway through and it really just seems like a thought experiment on what a "earn-to-vote" society would be like and not an endorsement of it.

Are any of the accusations levied at Heinlein even credible, or were these accusations just an attempt to tar and feather him to the public?
 
Are any of the accusations levied at Heinlein even credible, or were these accusations just an attempt to tar and feather him to the public?

Heinlein as a degenerate is credible. He comes from a generation that threw out science fiction sex offenders like candies, and his writing is often somewhat fetishistic, older he got less shits he gave and the works became more brazenly degenerate. If that's enough to write him as a pedo, I don't know, I have the foggiest memory of his (admittedly terrible and sex-fuelled) later stories.

Starship Troopers has very little combat in it, and it tries its damnedest to make its society feel reasonable. The fact that Verhoeven kinda torpedoed it in public pop consciousness never ceases to amuse me (imagine writing a book wholeheartedly and honestly supporting SERVICE GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP and some random Euro comes in, refuses to even read it and derails the entire public perception of it in a laughing farce).
 
The fact that Verhoeven kinda torpedoed it in public pop consciousness never ceases to amuse me (imagine writing a book wholeheartedly and honestly supporting SERVICE GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP and some random Euro comes in, refuses to even read it and derails the entire public perception of it in a laughing farce).
The film that became Starship Troopers was going to be an original property, until someone realised they had the rights to ST and started demanding changes. You can see how they just tacked on the names and a few of the more obvious bits of ST lore to an otherwise pretty generic 90s scifi-action romp (originally written by one of the RoboCop writers), unintentionally creating one of the greatest memes of the decade.

Of course, the irony of it all is, when the film was released, the media splashed about the idea that the film was made by neo-nazis. That pretty much killed the film dead at the box office.
 
The film that became Starship Troopers was going to be an original property, until someone realised they had the rights to ST and started demanding changes. You can see how they just tacked on the names and a few of the more obvious bits of ST lore to an otherwise pretty generic 90s scifi-action romp (originally written by one of the RoboCop writers), unintentionally creating one of the greatest memes of the decade.

Of course, the irony of it all is, when the film was released, the media splashed about the idea that the film was made by neo-nazis. That pretty much killed the film dead at the box office.
Wasn't Verhoeven one of the people who called Heinlein a fascist? It would be ironic if he were called a nazi after calling Heinlein a fascist.
 
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Wasn't Verhoeven on of the people who called Heinlein a fascist? It would be ironic if he were called a nazi after calling Heinlein a fascist.
Yes he was.

Heinlein was a conservative-leaning libertarian who believed the government should stay the fuck away from people’s personal business. He was anti-establishment and anti-government, technically the complete opposite of a fascist. Verhoeven, a typical obnoxious Eurocunt leftist, took a complex militia sci-fi novel, completely denounced Heinlein without reading the book, and turned it into a violent kiddie film that manchildren ate up as “a brilliant anti-military satire”.
 
Mike Glyer AKA China Mike built file 770 as a sci-fi/fantasy fan magazine for years. He used its alleged popularity as a bully pulpit to push around authors with wrongthink. After getting called out in about this he accidentally revealed that 70 percent of his page views come from Chinese bot farms. For all of this he has WON 40+ Hugo awards both for best fan magazine author and best fan magazine. Lately, after magnanimously stating he will not accept any more nominations he instead plugs a slate of writers who post on his site. Because slates are ok as long as those evil doubleplusungood puppies aren’t involved.
Good intel, but for outsiders there’s probably no other place that is reliably curating enough low level SFF news and gossip outside of File 770. David Langford was the go-to about 20 years ago, along with a few others (? camestros Felapton?) and a husband/wife team whose name escapes me. First name Patrick, but not a Tomlinson.
 
I liked Kindred by Octavia Butler. Show was absolutely dogshit though.

I'll never forgive GRRM for the infamous 'fat pink mast' scene in one of the ASOIAF books.
Only ever read the Xenogenesis trilogy by Butler. Bought it used from the local library, and it took me a long time to get through it. It has some intensely unsubtle political themes that are hammered home quite often ("humans bad because intelligence combined with hierarchy", "heterosexuality bad", "men rapists", and so on), and while that's OK, the story just wasn't very interesting and the writing in general just kinda boring. Things move slowly, until they leap forward suddenly. The story revolves around some fundamental concepts, but doesn't really explore them all that well. Consequences of all these concepts, positive or negative, are not really a thing. The Oankali are basically depicted as being correct, and nothing bad comes from submitting to them. Some humans resist and break through their infertility with rape and incest eventually, and some humans were allowed to live apart from the Oankali on Mars, but it's barely ever mentioned, despite the Oankali being certain that they will die (because humans are intelligent and hierarchical, and that's super bad and will always lead to selfdestruction unless you accept the alien gene transfer third gender).
It's not terrible, her prose is decent (I guess, being German I only read a translation), it's just kinda bland and doesn't really go anywhere. It clearly wanted to explore some themes of genetics and destiny and hierarchy and so on, but doesn't really do it.
 
Are any of the accusations levied at Heinlein even credible, or were these accusations just an attempt to tar and feather him to the public?
Heinlein was US Navy in World War II, and wrote Starship Troopers to honor the US Marine Corps.
His later work had a lot of sex in it, but AFAIK the sympathetic characters limited it to consenting adults.
 
There doesn't seem to be a sci-fi general thread but it relates to this topic loosely so I'll post it here. I've gotten into Starship Troopers lately and there's a passage in the book that talks about a grunt killing a kid off the army base and the military retrieved him for a hanging, and the book describes how the main character is only sad that the grunt didn't suffer hard enough at the gallows.

I bring this up because I've long suspected Robert Heinlein of being a pedo himself, because of a video I watched from Extra Credits back when they were still credible.


They mention incest being a feature of his work during the time he was ill & near the end of his life, but they don't go any further into it. Part of the reason I was looking into Starship Troopers is because it's the book that lead people to accuse him of being fascist, and nowhere in the book thus far have I seen anything that even remotely approaches it. Even the military fetishism the book is accused of seems absent in light of everyone in the book, recruiter included, attempting to dissuade the main character from joining. I'm about halfway through and it really just seems like a thought experiment on what a "earn-to-vote" society would be like and not an endorsement of it.

Are any of the accusations levied at Heinlein even credible, or were these accusations just an attempt to tar and feather him to the public?

Heinlein definitely seems to be tolerant of adult incest (Number of the Beast); has a lot of large age gap relationships(NotB and others), relies on rape as a plot point or as an explicit threat a number of times (Friday), and I think has teenagers (15, 16?) wanting to have or having sex. And of course, lots of free love. I've not seen a smoking gun for pedophilia, though.

Starship troopers is weird to read as a more modern person. There's a scene midway through the book where, if I recall correctly, some soldier is going to get flogged for some infraction, and there's this big to-do about the soldier's commanding officer having to administer the punishment, "This hurts me to do more than it hurts him," stuff which, honestly, is where I stopped taking the book so seriously.

In addition to being preoccupied with sex, you very frequently see an incredibly hypertrophied sense of responsibility alongside being brilliant (or at least, clearer-thinking than everyone else) and hyper-competent* in Heinlein characters. What's interesting about Starship Troopers is that it seems to mark a sort of midpoint in his thinking: in later Heinlein his characters are hyper-responsible because society/organizations/authority figures largely can't be trusted, because they're corrupt or incompetent - you are just going to have to handle things yourself, because the people around you are useless. When he wrote Starship Troopers he still seemed to have some faith that an organization, if it employed the right people, could function effectively and virtuously.

* - “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
― Robert A. Heinlein
 
Yes he was.

Heinlein was a conservative-leaning libertarian who believed the government should stay the fuck away from people’s personal business. He was anti-establishment and anti-government, technically the complete opposite of a fascist. Verhoeven, a typical obnoxious Eurocunt leftist, took a complex militia sci-fi novel, completely denounced Heinlein without reading the book, and turned it into a violent kiddie film that manchildren ate up as “a brilliant anti-military satire”.
It's nice when someone who throws around the word "fascist" gets a taste of their own medicine. How did Verhoeven react to being called a nazi?
Starship troopers is weird to read as a more modern person. There's a scene midway through the book where, if I recall correctly, some soldier is going to get flogged for some infraction, and there's this big to-do about the soldier's commanding officer having to administer the punishment, "This hurts me to do more than it hurts him," stuff which, honestly, is where I stopped taking the book so seriously.
I know the part your talking about, it's where a cadet throws a punch at their instructor, and that "this hurts me more than you" discussion doesn't happen, what does happen is the squad commander has a talk with the instructor about how he should've weeded out the cadet before he ever had a chance to throw a punch at him so the flogging & court martial wouldn't have happened.
 
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It's nice when someone who throws around the word "fascist" gets a taste of their own medicine. How did Verhoeven react to being called a nazi?
I haven’t a clue. I had no idea Verheoven was even called a Nazi and search results for this only come up with articles about how Starship Troopers is anti-Nazi. I’m not saying this didn’t happen, I just think search engines nowadays are pozzed.

Heinlein was US Navy in World War II, and wrote Starship Troopers to honor the US Marine Corps.
His later work had a lot of sex in it, but AFAIK the sympathetic characters limited it to consenting adults.
It was less about being a Navy vet and more about Heinlein being pissed off that Eisenhower was suspending US nuclear tests. He was so pissed about it matter of fact that he set aside his hippie-dippie magnum opus Stranger in a Strange Land and belted out Starship in a matter of a few weeks.
 
Heinlein definitely seems to be tolerant of adult incest (Number of the Beast); has a lot of large age gap relationships(NotB and others), relies on rape as a plot point or as an explicit threat a number of times (Friday), and I think has teenagers (15, 16?) wanting to have or having sex. And of course, lots of free love. I've not seen a smoking gun for pedophilia, though.
In Citizen of the Galaxy, the protag is explicitly cool with the idea of banging his cousin once he learns she's from one side of the family as opposed to another side, because he spent a good chunk of his childhood and puberty tooling around with space gypsies that believe incest doesn't count if it comes from one side of the family. The cousin's cool with it, too, because the culture she was raised in said all cousin-fucking is kosher.

So he's at least willing to entertain the idea of relations between cousins. The track record of incest in his other works certainly does paint a picture.
 
In Citizen of the Galaxy, the protag is explicitly cool with the idea of banging his cousin once he learns she's from one side of the family as opposed to another side, because he spent a good chunk of his childhood and puberty tooling around with space gypsies that believe incest doesn't count if it comes from one side of the family. The cousin's cool with it, too, because the culture she was raised in said all cousin-fucking is kosher.
Marriage between first cousins is legal in 19 US states.
I don't approve of it, but there it is.
 
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