Islam

Only the Muslims in Xinjiang face this problem, otherwise we'd hear about the destruction of the mosques in Linxia City and Xian. As for Erdogan? He's not going to rule Turkey forever, and it's very clear that it's a secular nation. People can drink and go to clubs there even if those are considered unlawful in Islam.
 
Describing the ottoman empire as tolerant is very optimistic. Yes the millet system allowed theoretical religious freedom but this was subject to several caveats you have not mentioned:

Christian and jewish citizens could not testify equally against muslins. Effectively making muslim on non muslim crime unpunishable.
They could not inherit property from father to son.
They could not proslytise.
Becoming a christian was punishable by death.
Their children, could and were, taken as slaves.
They had to pay an extra tax.
They were not permitted to raise new churches.
They could not marry muslim women.
Ramadan was enforced by law.
Public display of the cross or any non islamic iconography was forbidden..
They sponsored the barbary slave trade to actively collect west europeans for the slave markets.
Male slaves were typically castrated.
They were expected to show deference to muslims with penalties for failure ranging from fines to amputation.

Polytheists had it even worse as they were outside the millet system and actively hunted. The ummayed sultanate had the same laws with the addition of forced conversion. Your use of moral equivelancy aside, that is not a tolerant or non oppressive society for anyone but its islamic rulers.

I also havent mentioned the ottoman antics in armenia and arabia which make for harrowing reading on their own.

Indeed the same can be said of the mughuls in indua or timurs in persia, islamic empires all follow a very similiar model (funny that, its almost like they follow some kind of Playbook....oh) and are at their most tolerant when muslims are a minority becoming more and more oppresive as population balance shifts away from the conquered religions.

You keep glossing over your own countries illeberal policies- it is not just public worship that is banned: blasphemy carries fines and the death penalty, ramadan is legally enforced, apostacy leads to disinheritence, marriage of non muslims to muslim women is forbidden, preachers of anything other than sunni islam require permits. Many of these laws are recent: kuwait is not becomming more tolerant and nor is turkey. Erdrogan might go but his party and the considerable portion of the turkish electorate they represent.

As i noted in a previous post, almost every islamic country that has attempted to westernize (or liberalise generally) has fallen to a conservative backlash. Turkey is at the start of this, for the moment one can still drink in turkey, buying a cartoon of mohammed? Not so much.
 
You do have a good point there. However, although that's the case, my country's constitution promotes freedom of religion despite lack of public worship and Islam being the state religion. In fact, we have churches here too. It does forbid any depiction of the Prophet PBUH or Jesus in a denigrating manner. There is also an article which cites information from the 2014 International Religious Freedom Report for Kuwait, compiled by the United States Department of State
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Kuwait
And yes you have made excellent points on the Ottoman Empire, points I have missed. But I have also cited legitimate information to go along with it.
I have also forgotten to mention that women here have more rights than any of our neighbors in the Middle East. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwaiti_women
However, I do thank you for touching up on points I have previously missed.
 
my country's constitution promotes freedom of religion despite lack of public worship and Islam being the state religion. In fact, we have churches here too. It does forbid any depiction of the Prophet PBUH or Jesus in a denigrating manner. There is also an article which cites information from the 2014 International Religious Freedom Report for Kuwait, compiled by the United States Department of State
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Kuwait
The ussr, prc, and indeed dprk all have constitutions guaranteeing religious freedom however the reality in those states was very different.

Yes certain recognized churches can be liscences in Kuwait however new liscences have proven de facto impossible to get and Kuwaiti law prevents naturalisation of non Muslims meaning out of a Christian population of about 670 000 about 400 are citizens. This is significant as Kuwaiti law only offers non citizens limited rights. So de jure you have a constitution that protects freedom of religion but defacto your laws actively deterr and penalise non Muslims.

Kuwait is certainly the most socially advanced of the Arab nations abd argueably the most liberal of all the Islamic states however this makes the the hunan rights watch 2015 report all the more damming. I have bolded the part relating to women.
The government aggressively cracked down on free speech throughout 2014, using provisions in the constitution, the national security law, and other legislation to stifle political dissent. The authorities stripped 33 Kuwaitis of their nationality, including three who appeared to have been targeted because they represented opposition voices.

Freedom of ExpressionNabil al-Awadhi, a conservative cleric widely known for his TV talk shows. On September 29, a new round of revocations included Saad al-Ajmi, the spokesman for Musalam al-Barrak, a leading opposition politician.

The Law of Nationality, 15/1959, allows the authorities to revoke the citizenship of any Kuwaiti, and their dependants, and deport them under certain circumstances. For example the authorities can revoke a person’s citizenship if they consider it in the “best interest” of the state or its external security, or if they have evidence that the person concerned has promoted principles that undermine the country’s wellbeing. Citizenship can also be revoked if it was obtained fraudulently or if a court convicts a naturalized citizen of a crime related to honor or dishonesty within 15 years of becoming a Kuwaiti.

The government resorted to deportations to remove non-citizens of whom it disapproved. In June, authorities deported an Egyptian imam and his wife and children after he denounced the 2014 Egyptian presidential election in a sermon that he delivered in a Kuwait mosque. The authorities deported him and his family after the Religious Endowments Ministry issued regulations banning “interference in the domestic affairs of other countries” in sermons.

[paste:font size="5"]Treatment of Minorities

At least 105,702 Bidun residents of Kuwait remained stateless.

After an initial registration period for citizenship ended in 1960, authorities shifted Bidun citizenship claims to administrative committees that for decades have avoided resolving the claims. Authorities claim that many Bidun are “illegal residents” who deliberately destroyed evidence of another nationality in order to get the generous benefits that Kuwait provides to its citizens.

Members of the Bidun community frequently take to the streets to protest the government’s failure to address their citizenship claims, despite government warnings that Bidun should not gather in public. Article 12 of the 1979 Public Gatherings Law bars non-Kuwaitis from participating in public gatherings. At least seven were arrested for taking part in protests in 2014.

Women’s Rights
In March and April 2014, the Justice Ministry prohibited women, but not men, from applying for legal researcher posts until the two-year evaluation of the first group of women admitted in 2013 is completed. A legal researcher post allows women for the first time to become eligible, pending evaluation, for posts as prosecutors, enabling them thereafter to pursue careers as judges. In April 2014, a court struck down the Justice Ministry’s order and 21 women have now been admitted.

Women continue to face discrimination in many aspects of their lives, and large legal gaps remain in protections for women. Kuwait has no laws prohibiting domestic violence, sexual harassment, or marital rape. Legislation proposed in April to penalize sexual harassment had still to be debated by November 2014. Kuwaiti women married to non-Kuwaitis, unlike Kuwaiti men, cannot pass on their citizenship to their children or spouses. Kuwaiti law also prevents a woman marrying a partner of her choice without her father’s permission
.

Migrant Workers
Recognizing the vulnerabilities of foreign migrant workers, particularly domestic workers who are excluded from the Labour Law or any other legal regime, in 2013 the authorities opened a shelter for domestic workers who flee abusive employers. Inadequate staffing prevented the shelter from becoming fully operational and providing in-house services. Designed to accommodate up to 700 people, the shelter had 210 women residing there in September 2014. The shelter accepts victims on referral from a foreign embassy or international organization. Victims are not able to leave the shelter unescorted if they want to return to the shelter.

Terrorism
Extremist militant groups Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State, also known as ISIS, are responsible for systematic rights abuses, including the intentional targeting and abduction of civilians during military operations in Syria and Iraq in 2014. Media reports indicate that ISIS members have included Kuwaiti nationals, and that individual Kuwaitis have financed and supported ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra military operations.

In August, Kuwait announced new measures to curb funding for extremists. These included banning all fundraising in mosques, requiring greater transparency from charities regarding the sources and destinations of their donations, and obtaining receipts.

On August 6, the US Treasury department sanctioned three Kuwaitis for funding extremist militant groups in Syria and Iraq, by freezing any US-based assets and banning US citizens from doing business with them.

Key International Actors
The parliament debated whether Kuwait should become party to the 2012 Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) joint security agreement in response to government pressure to ratify it. On April 3, the parliament’s foreign affairs committee rejected the agreement, with a majority asserting that it violates Kuwait’s constitution. The 20 provisions of GCC agreement could be used to suppress free expression and undermine privacy rights of citizens and residents.

The United States, in its 2014 US State Department annual Trafficking in Persons report, classified Kuwait as Tier 3—among the most problematic countries—for the eighth consecutive year. The report cited Kuwait’s failure to prosecute trafficking offenders using the 2013 anti-trafficking law or other laws that address trafficking crimes. It found that efforts to help abused workers were not accompanied by any enforcement activities against the employers from whom the workers had fled. It found also that Kuwaiti authorities failed to protect victims of trafficking.

There are some positives in that report, but if Kuwait is the best the Islamic world has to offer it is very hard to view the natural political consequences of Islam as anything but backward, oppresive and controlling.
 
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Religion is something that should never play any part in politics, that I agree with you on. However, if you don't mind me asking, what would be your example of the most tolerant government or nation? Every nation has flaws and it would be foolish to call any one of them perfect as a result. You have shown although my country has some issues to work on, it is not a shithole.
 
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Religion is something that should never play any part in politics, that I agree with you on. However, if you don't mind me asking, what would be your example of the most tolerant government or nation? Every nation has flaws and it would be foolish to call any one of them perfect as a result. You have shown although my country has some issues to work on, it is not a shithole.
The Finns, Canadians, Norwegians all consistently do very well as does any nation that preserves free press and disestablishmentarianism. I mean if I was to wake up having magically transformed into a woman like some kind of rom com the biggest inconvenience by far would be getting a pair of smaller shoes in time for work, my legal rights would remain unchanged as would most of my practical life.

I agree no nation is perfect and that religion should be as divorced from politics as possible however I also believe islam is an inherently political religion having in its origin the birth of a state.

States which follow the Islamic model overwhelmingly to produce 7th century states or at best, states with gross failings as to the liberties of their populace.

This does not happen with other religions in the modern world.

I don't really understand why it should be controversial or surprising that following a guide on how to structure a 7th century theocratic empire leads to states with similar principles. Islam holds such a state and the warlord who created it up as an example par excellence to be followed so of course people do and even where they take a liberal reading as in Kuwait it translates to non Muslims and women living with greatly reduced rights and legal inequality at best and outright murder and enslavement as in many of the caliphates at worst.

No state has ever yet succeeded in combining freedom, the rule of law and equality with islam. It took the world about 60 years to realise these things were incompatible with communism it is a great shame 1400 odd years has not yet brought the same about islam.
 
That is your opinion. However, I believe Islam should be practiced as just a religion and not a political system, especially if it's overly strict like in Saudi Arabia. I am one of those people who do not believe in killing those who have a different belief. I was raised knowing that it is wrong and unjust. I have also provided a quotation from the Quran in one of my earlier posts that it's much better for us to treat Non-Muslims with kindness than to kill them. It also states however not to follow their same beliefs. This is what I believe in. Not all of us are horrible people.
 
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You do have a good point there. However, although that's the case, my country's constitution promotes freedom of religion despite lack of public worship and Islam being the state religion. In fact, we have churches here too. It does forbid any depiction of the Prophet PBUH or Jesus in a denigrating manner. There is also an article which cites information from the 2014 International Religious Freedom Report for Kuwait, compiled by the United States Department of State
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Kuwait
And yes you have made excellent points on the Ottoman Empire, points I have missed. But I have also cited legitimate information to go along with it.
I have also forgotten to mention that women here have more rights than any of our neighbors in the Middle East. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwaiti_women
However, I do thank you for touching up on points I have previously missed.
Maybe it's just me being a naive American, but the idea of a state religion(the unlike the church of England is enforced on everyone) and idea of promoting freedom of religion is a farcical statement.
 
Maybe it's just me being a naive American, but the idea of a state religion(the unlike the church of England is enforced on everyone) and idea of promoting freedom of religion is a farcical statement.
Maybe what I meant was, that Islam would be the official religion, but freedom of religion is encouraged to an extant.
 
And those last three words mean a fuckton with something most of the people you're debating consider a non-negotiable right.
We don't kill those of different beliefs where I come from. We even have churches here. We also condemn extremism and terrorism, and we also happen to be allies with your country.
 
We don't kill those of different beliefs where I come from. We even have churches here. We also condemn extremism and terrorism, and we also happen to be allies with your country.
So what? Not to discourage a place that is objectively better then the following example; but the U.S. is also allied with Saudi Arabia, and I consider that place an insult to human dignity. I'm not meaning to insult your country. I'm saying that the idea of freedom of religion and the massive restrictions Kuwait places on that same idea don't compute. Also, I think we've hit something personal in what is ostensibly a more general thread.
 
So what? Not to discourage a place that is objectively better then the following example; but the U.S. is also allied with Saudi Arabia, and I consider that place an insult to human dignity. I'm not meaning to insult your country. I'm saying that the idea of freedom of religion and the massive restrictions Kuwait places on that same idea don't compute. Also, I think we've hit something personal in what is ostensibly a more general thread.
Kuwait is not Saudi Arabia though. It has a completely different government system as well. I've also stated that we do not kill Non-Muslims here. It has already been stated that private worship is allowed. My country is not perfect, but it is not Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or Iraq.
 
We don't kill those of different beliefs where I come from.
Unless someone born into a muslim family blasphemes in which case the statutes do actually allow the death penalty pending the Emirs approval. you do lock men up for a decade for insulting mohammed on twitter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18322418

I think that we should airlift Kuwait to somewhere much nicer like Polynesia so that it can continue to develop a peaceful and progressive lifestyle away from the pressure of its old-fashioned parents.
It is only 'progressive' compared to its neighbours. It consistantly ranks around 97/152 on the human freedom index with a high score for economic freedom and very low scores for social and political freedoms.
 
It is only 'progressive' compared to its neighbours. It consistantly ranks around 97/152 on the human freedom index with a high score for economic freedom and very low scores for social and political freedoms.

That's certainly true. I hope you don't think I am disputing that. I could legally suffer terrible things in Kuwait at the hands of their government and justice system. That said, I feel like the people of Kuwait themselves do want to get away from that, and it's a series of international pressures in the region that prevent Kuwait from fully modernizing. So I made a lighthearted joke about how I thought Kuwait would be better if it didn't have to deal with being in the Middle East and I stand by that. The echo chamber is responsible for a lot of the radicalization.

Edit for English. Sorry, I have too many languages floating in my head.
 
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Unless someone born into a muslim family blasphemes in which case the statutes do actually allow the death penalty pending the Emirs approval. you do lock men up for a decade for insulting mohammed on twitter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18322418


It is only 'progressive' compared to its neighbours. It consistantly ranks around 97/152 on the human freedom index with a high score for economic freedom and very low scores for social and political freedoms.
That's still the only case where a person can be executed. Granted we have some issues to work on, but people here are doing far better than our neighbors.
 
That's still the only case where a person can be executed. Granted we have some issues to work on, but people here are doing far better than our neighbors.

You do know blasphemy consists of, "Any religion that is not Islam and that says Islam is incorrect," yes? That's not an only case. That's a -lot- of cases. Christians are called Polytheists in the Middle East if you've listened to any clerics - they claim we worship three gods. So, yeah. Anyone who says Jesus is God's son? You're dead. Anyone who questions Mohammed publicly? You're dead. It's not something so small as to be glossed over as "the only reason" just saying.
 
You do know blasphemy consists of, "Any religion that is not Islam and that says Islam is incorrect," yes? That's not an only case. That's a -lot- of cases. Christians are called Polytheists in the Middle East if you've listened to any clerics - they claim we worship three gods. So, yeah. Anyone who says Jesus is God's son? You're dead. Anyone who questions Mohammed publicly? You're dead. It's not something so small as to be glossed over as "the only reason" just saying.
Christians however are not persecuted where I come from, and we do not kill them here either. We consider them to be Ahl Al-Kitab, or People of the Book along with Jews. I know full well what blasphemy is, and you don't have to worry about lecturing it to me. I would like to add that there are numerous sects and schools of Islam, and it's mostly Wahhabis that encourage this prejudice. I myself have stated before that I don't support killings of Non-Muslims. My country is not the same as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.
 
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