Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Racist Trash]

Considering the only heavy bombers the USSR had was the Pe-8, which had less than 100 built, and the TB-3 of which there were many made but has more in common with WW1 bomber than a WW2 bomber, I don't blame Stalin.
View attachment 4642609
Used a War Thunder image because I couldn't quickly find a good image that shows the pilot and gunners are just sitting on the outside and there's no bomb bay so any bombs create drag instead of just adding weight, also the landing gear is fixed in place.

If I remember right the Pe-8 also couldn't take off from any of the airfields Russia had if it was laden with bombs making it a fairly pointless bomber.

 

[WhiteNight]

Setting aside why Russia should negotiate, a better question at this juncture is why should Ukraine?

One reason is that hundreds of their soldiers are dying every couple of weeks, their towns are being turned to rubble, and it's a struggle to grow an economy under war conditions. The bigger reason to not negotiate is that Russia is a completely untrustworthy partner. Any promise Russia makes is worthless. Any negotiated truce will simply give Russia time to regroup and attack again later.

Ukraine wants all its territory back, but I'm sure many are realistic enough that they would give up, for example, Crimea and parts of the Donbas if they had a guarantee of future peace. But no such guarantee is possible. It would only mean Russia will use the territory and resources of Crimea and the Donbas in the next invasion.

 

[mindlessobserver]

One reason is that hundreds of their soldiers are dying every couple of weeks, their towns are being turned to rubble, and it's a struggle to grow an economy under war conditions. The bigger reason to not negotiate is that Russia is a completely untrustworthy partner. Any promise Russia makes is worthless. Any negotiated truce will simply give Russia time to regroup and attack again later.

Ukraine wants all its territory back, but I'm sure many are realistic enough that they would give up, for example, Crimea and parts of the Donbas if they had a guarantee of future peace. But no such guarantee is possible. It would only mean Russia will use the territory and resources of Crimea and the Donbas in the next invasion.

Except the terms you laid out here were what Zelensky essentially offered Putin in the 1st Week of March, 2022. Putin reportedly tore the diplomatic note up and told his aides he intended to "thrash" Zelensky.

You are right in that Russia is not an honest broker. Especially if it showed up now a year after a string of catastrophic battlefield defeats to offer as terms what was given to them in the 1st week of the war before all those set backs.

I don't think Russia has fully appreciated what has happened here. Diplomacy died because Putin demanded the maximalist objectives as terms. Ukraine now demands the same.

You say "cities being turned to rubble" as if this is somehow a reason for Ukraine to NOT fight, rather then an aggravation that makes a negotiated settlement even hard to achieve. Why, precisely, should Ukraine make peace with a country that has been so free with its use of indiscriminate artillery on its cities?

Russia has used everything short of nuclear weapons at this point. Putin cannot go higher on the escalation ladder because if he did Russia goes to war with the United States and its game over. The US position has been crystal clear since this mess started. If Russia uses nukes, the USA will attack. not just in Ukraine but Russia proper.

Ukraine knows there is literally nothing more Russia can do that it is not already doing.

 

[CaptainAutism69]

Except the terms you laid out here were what Zelensky essentially offered Putin in the 1st Week of March, 2022. Putin reportedly tore the diplomatic note up and told his aides he intended to "thrash" Zelensky.

Which alternative history world are you living in?
There was a deal ready to go that looked good until Johnon made a surpirise visit to tell Zelensky that hiss backers were not ready for peace yet.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

There was a deal ready to go that looked good until Johnon made a surpirise visit to tell Zelensky that hiss backers were not ready for peace yet.

I don't see in which point that supposed deal was 'good'.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Which alternative history world are you living in?
There was a deal ready to go that looked good until Johnon made a surpirise visit to tell Zelensky that hiss backers were not ready for peace yet.

Russia didn't just want what Zelensky offered in March. They wanted the whole thing. A complete reversal of the 2014 revolution. That was something Zelesnky could not give.

 

[MS Paint Gigachad]

Considering the only heavy bombers the USSR had was the Pe-8, which had less than 100 built, and the TB-3 of which there were many made but has more in common with WW1 bomber than a WW2 bomber, I don't blame Stalin.
View attachment 4642609
Used a War Thunder image because I couldn't quickly find a good image that shows the pilot and gunners are just sitting on the outside and there's no bomb bay so any bombs create drag instead of just adding weight, also the landing gear is fixed in place.

I googled it and found the wikipedia page:

Alexa, play the VDV song (what air defense doing version)

 

[CaptainAutism69]

Russia didn't just want what Zelensky offered in March. They wanted the whole thing. A complete reversal of the 2014 revolution. That was something Zelesnky could not give.

time for citation son, as you're just making things up now.

 

[GatorAids]

You'd think after the events of the 90s Russia would have at least been smart enough to ban anyone like Putin who has been a part of the KGB from being involved in government. Like fuck, these niggers were involved in an attempted coup and then you allow one of these glowniggers to run for president. The only feasible plan for world peace is total glownigger death. All 3 letter agency agents should be locked in a room with an honest to god schizo and forced to chew tinfoil.

 

[CaptainAutism69]

You'd think after the events of the 90s Russia would have at least been smart enough to ban anyone like Putin who has been a part of the KGB from being involved in government. Like fuck, these niggers were involved in an attempted coup and then you allow one of these glowniggers to run for president. The only feasible plan for world peace is total glownigger death. All 3 letter agency agents should be locked in a room with an honest to god schizo and forced to chew tinfoil.

The KGB allied with the mafia as at the time they were out in the cold (Putin ass a taxit driver), and yeltsen was seen rightly as whoring out the country to Western backed oligarchs. The Oligarchs thought Putin was their man, Putin fucked them in the ass after the Kursk disaster.

 

[GatorAids]

The KGB allied with the mafia as at the time they were out in the cold (Putin ass a taxit driver), and yeltsen was seen rightly as whoring out the country to Western backed oligarchs. The Oligarchs thought Putin was their man, Putin fucked them in the ass after the Kursk disaster.

I don't give a fuck about context. Any and all alphabet people should be treated as no more than guinea pigs for the most horrific torture methods the human mind can think up. I want to tune into CSPAN and watch KGB, CIA, and NSA faggots being loaded into a brass bull.

 

[Racist Trash]

time for citation son, as you're just making things up now.

Impressive wanting citations after spouting some shit about Johnson personally rugby tackling Zelensky and stealing the deal from him in order to continue a war that Ukraine didn't start in the first place... As if there wasn't some other reason for Ukraine to keep fighting like I don't know the fact Russia took land from them.
Edit: Which I might add was after Russia said they weren't going to invade and then instantly did so why would anyone trust a deal that they put on the table anyway?

 

[Vince McMahon]

You'd think after the events of the 90s Russia would have at least been smart enough to ban anyone like Putin who has been a part of the KGB from being involved in government. Like fuck, these niggers were involved in an attempted coup and then you allow one of these glowniggers to run for president.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semibankirschina

Thank these lovely 7 people.

1. Boris Berezovsky – United Bank, Sibneft, ORT,
2. Mikhail Khodorkovsky – Bank Menatep, Yukos,
3. Mikhail Fridman – Alfa Group,
4. Vladimir Vinogradov - Inkombank,
5. Vladimir Gusinsky – Most Group, NTV,
6. Vladimir Potanin – UNEXIM Bank
7. Alexander Smolensky – Bank Stolichny

 

[CaptainAutism69]

Impressive wanting citations after spouting some shit about Johnson personally rugby tackling Zelensky and stealing the deal from him in order to continue a war that Ukraine didn't start in the first place... As if there wasn't some other reason for Ukraine to keep fighting like I don't know the fact Russia took land from them.
Edit: Which I might add was after Russia said they weren't going to invade and then instantly did so why would anyone trust a deal that they put on the table anyway?

According Ukrainska Pravda sources close to Zelenskyy, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Boris Johnson, who appeared in the capital almost without warning, brought two simple messages.

The first is that Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with.

And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not.

Johnson’s position was that the collective West, which back in February had suggested Zelenskyy should surrender and flee, now felt that Putin was not really as powerful as they had previously imagined, and that here was a chance to "press him."

Three days after Johnson left for Britain, Putin went public and said talks with Ukraine "had turned into a dead end".

Three days later, Roman Abramovich arrived in Kyiv again, and President Zelenskyy officially stated that there could be two security agreements with Russia: one would concern Ukraine's coexistence with Russia, the other - only security guarantees, because not everyone "sees themselves at the same table with the Russian Federation ".

After that, according to Ukrainska Pravda sources, the bilateral negotiation process was paused.
According Ukrainska Pravda sources close to Zelenskyy, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Boris Johnson, who appeared in the capital almost without warning, brought two simple messages.

The first is that Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with.

And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not.

Johnson’s position was that the collective West, which back in February had suggested Zelenskyy should surrender and flee, now felt that Putin was not really as powerful as they had previously imagined, and that here was a chance to "press him."

Three days after Johnson left for Britain, Putin went public and said talks with Ukraine "had turned into a dead end".

Three days later, Roman Abramovich arrived in Kyiv again, and President Zelenskyy officially stated that there could be two security agreements with Russia: one would concern Ukraine's coexistence with Russia, the other - only security guarantees, because not everyone "sees themselves at the same table with the Russian Federation ".

After that, according to Ukrainska Pravda sources, the bilateral negotiation process was paused.

У Київ приїхав Джонсон: зустрічається із Зеленським

Прем’єр Великої Британії Борис Джонсон прибув до Києва з візитом і зараз проводить зустріч з президентом України Володимиром Зеленським.

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[Bulk Bogan]

Related

Time for the nWo 4-life!

Even ARMA had to basically shove Deus Ex-tier stressors onto the US/NATO to make their CSAT faction work at all, and even then you have the insanity of Iranian exoskeletons on Chinese specwar. Also earthquake machines, since ARMA's story seems to secretly want to be a Metal Gear fanfiction, and it's still more realistic than BRICS's chances of being anything other than what it currently is.

You're pretty dead on.

Spoiler: Atomic Heart Spoilers

The main bad guy is a Soviet scientist who basically wants to remove free will from everybody, and your AI glove partner is actually the mind of another scientist who betrays you in the ending where you try and stop the main bad guy and hijacks the anti-free will project for himself, so there's not even 'good' ending.

God dammit, does slavjank have any other story to tell at all? Just a warmed-over C-Consciousness, that's it? My disappointment is immeasurable.

when hostile foreign forces are floating ideas such as "dude just versailles them haha" and "bro we should potsdam them lmao" it has a very strong galvanizing effect and acts as a massive boost for their willingness to rally behind their leadership in resistance against these foreign enemies.

I didn't know that the Russian people viewed us here on the Kiwi Farms as a hostile foreign force. I'm honored, and also relieved that Russia has finally picked an enemy on par with their own military capacity.

 

[Blatant hypocrite]

Vladimir Potanin – UNEXIM Bank

This is some Luigi-Waluigi shit

 

[Racist Trash]

У Київ приїхав Джонсон: зустрічається із Зеленським

Прем’єр Великої Британії Борис Джонсон прибув до Києва з візитом і зараз проводить зустріч з президентом України Володимиром Зеленським.

www.pravda.com.ua

Already I am seeing contradictions in the two stories:
"According Ukrainska Pravda sources close to Zelenskyy, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Boris Johnson, who appeared in the capital almost without warning"
And;
"Yermak's direct speech: "I speak regularly to Mr Johnson's security adviser Stephen Lovegrove and international affairs adviser David Quarry, so this visit was not spontaneous."
So what do I trust it some random unnamed sources saying that a month ago he just teleported in or the actual member of Zelensky 's government who on the day it happened stated that it had been pre arranged. Also it could be seen that with bojos visit he had firmer footing and backing than what he had before putting himself in a much stronger bargaining position, not that there is some shadowy cabal that for some reason wants a shitty war in Ukraine.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

God dammit, does slavjank have any other story to tell at all? Just a warmed-over C-Consciousness, that's it? My disappointment is immeasurable.

All EE countries use only four stories in all media:

1/ we wuz kangz n shieet
2/ we will be kangz n shieet
3/ the nation X is evil, they took our kangz
4/ we drink vodka and how it ends

 

[WhiteNight]

Except the terms you laid out here were what Zelensky essentially offered Putin in the 1st Week of March, 2022. Putin reportedly tore the diplomatic note up and told his aides he intended to "thrash" Zelensky.

Perhaps reports of such conversations are reliable, I can't say. But in the early days almost everyone thought Ukraine would fall quickly to Russia, so any deal Zelensky got would be better than the total conquest of his country. The odds look a lot better now.

You say "cities being turned to rubble" as if this is somehow a reason for Ukraine to NOT fight, rather then an aggravation that makes a negotiated settlement even hard to achieve. Why, precisely, should Ukraine make peace with a country that has been so free with its use of indiscriminate artillery on its cities?

That's why it's called making peace.

A settlement would put a stop to the destruction of their homes (for now). But, sure, anger over the devastation will make it harder to sell a peace plan to the Ukrainian people. And this is still hypothetical anyway because Russia can't be trusted to stick to any agreement, and Ukraine thinks it can win.

У Київ приїхав Джонсон: зустрічається із Зеленським

Прем’єр Великої Британії Борис Джонсон прибув до Києва з візитом і зараз проводить зустріч з президентом України Володимиром Зеленським.

www.pravda.com.ua

The URL does not match the text (which by the way was pasted two times). The reference to "the collective West" sure makes it sound like a vatnik source rather than a Ukrainian one.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

The URL does not match the text (which by the way was pasted two times). The reference to "the collective West" sure makes it sound like a vatnik source rather than a Ukrainian one.

Differences between what posted @CaptainAutism69 and what is in the link are huge.

Autotranslated:

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson arrived in Kyiv for a visit and is currently holding a meeting with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky.

Source: Facebook page of the Deputy Head of the Office of the President Andrii Sybiga

Direct speech: "Right now, Boris Johnson's visit to Kyiv began with a tete-a-tete meeting with President Zelenskyi."

Details: Sybiga added that Great Britain is a leader in defense support for Ukraine. Leader in the anti-war coalition. The leader in sanctions against the Russian aggressor.

Head of OP Andriy Yermak called the "conversation" with Johnson "rich and constructive."

Yermak's direct speech: "I speak regularly to Mr Johnson's security adviser Stephen Lovegrove and international affairs adviser David Quarry, so this visit was not spontaneous.

It will not take long to wait for the results, but I can already say: we will become even stronger."

Prehistory:

On March 21, the Daily Mail tabloid reported that Johnson was considering a trip to Kyiv to show support for Ukraine's fight against the Russian Federation.

However, the special services did not advise him to do this because of security threats.

Nothing about Abramovitz, messeges and so one.

Can Captain explain what was source of what he posted?