Islam

Communism killed at least 100 millions and forced billions to live under totalitarianism

Call me when Islam is close to that

today it's by far the bigger threat we face though

...

First off, Communism, as bad as it was, isn't as big as a threat as it was decades ago - the only arguable exception being China.

Second, I think 1400 years might be enough to reach that 100 million+ casualty number.
 
From what I've seen here, a lot of people are opposed to Muslim immigrants. I don't know much about this ideology. All of the Muslims I have met have seemed moderate.
Why is there such opposition to muslim immigration in Europe? Is Islam really a problem or is it just like any other religion?
I have traveled to a lot of places around Europe in the past
From what I have experienced, people are not xenophobic so much as they are ignorant to the culture of other human beings. My family is from the North of Spain where not too many outsiders visit, if they do, they visit very public and tourist designated areas. There is very real fear and reality that immigrants are conquering new land. There are a lot of immigrants who are good and nice people and there are a lot who are misrepresenting their identities and attempting to drain economies. In Spain, there is not much to drain, so a lot of immigrants pass by. There is much more enforcement and education needed. I do not agree with rape and abuse in any country.
 
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It doesn't make any sense to let any Muslims into America after what happened in Orlando. Moderate Muslims exist and they're fine people, but they still associate with the same belief system as terrorists. If someone is a member of the KKK but doesn't want to kill black people and condemns those who do, you still don't invite him to an NAACP meeting until he renounces his KKK membership. I'm not saying that good moderate Muslims like @Ntwadumela should renounce their religion, I'm just saying that it makes no sense for America to let them in unless they do.
 
It doesn't make any sense to let any Muslims into America after what happened in Orlando. Moderate Muslims exist and they're fine people, but they still associate with the same belief system as terrorists. If someone is a member of the KKK but doesn't want to kill black people and condemns those who do, you still don't invite him to an NAACP meeting until he renounces his KKK membership. I'm not saying that good moderate Muslims like @Ntwadumela should renounce their religion, I'm just saying that it makes no sense for America to let them in unless they do.
While you are right about certain things and I do see where you're coming from, I would like to mention that Islam has different schools of thought and this causes various debates on what is acceptable and what isn't. That being said, this is like saying that Mormons and Catholics believe in the same representation of Christianity, or that Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism represent the same interpretation of Buddhism. If the immigrant in question has been found to have ties with terrorists, I believe he should be deported immediately since they are a threat to national security. If they are not shown any symptoms of such, intensive interrogation should be in order.
 
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While you are right about certain things and I do see where you're coming from, I would like to mention that Islam has different schools of thought and this causes various debates on what is acceptable and what isn't. That being said, this is like saying that Mormons and Catholics believe in the same representation of Christianity, or that Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism represent the same interpretation of Buddhism. If the immigrant in question has been found to have ties with terrorists, I believe he should be deported immediately since they are a threat to national security. If they are not shown any symptoms of such, intensive interrogation should be in order.
America shouldn't really be taking in many immigrants at all in its current situation, and the easiest way to avoid letting in Muslim terrorists is to not let in any Muslims. We have no obligation to let everyone in, and it's just not worth the risk. If an American committed a horrible act of terrorism in another country and they decided no more Americans for a while I wouldn't see a problem with that even though I would never do something like that.
 
America shouldn't really be taking in many immigrants at all in its current situation, and the easiest way to avoid letting in Muslim terrorists is to not let in any Muslims. We have no obligation to let everyone in, and it's just not worth the risk. If an American committed a horrible act of terrorism in another country and they decided no more Americans for a while I wouldn't see a problem with that even though I would never do something like that.
Good point indeed. That could be a definitive example to promote more stability in the nation and to discourage such incidents from happening. I want to ask though, does this include tourists from other nations as well, or does it just concern those who wish to be American citizens?
 
Renouncing one's religion is a dubious requirement at best. What's stopping someone from lying and you never knowing? It's a con as easy to pull off as when you went to titty sites in middle school and clicked the "yes I'm over 18" button on the homepage.

I agree that Islamic extremism affects only a part of the religion/culture. I know people who live in the US who pray five times a day, can read and speak Arabic, and yet are still people whom I feel comfortable around because I know none of them are wearing a fucking bomb vest under their clothes. Barring 100% of Muslims that want to come to this country is a bit extreme, and might be hard to implement and properly look into. Not to mention, it's very easy for people to just lie. What is easier from an immigration standpoint, however, is taking a look at where these people are coming from and making judgment calls based upon that information. Are they coming from (or have recently been to) a part of the world where ISIS and their ilk run rampant? Sorry, you're not welcome here. Not until your neck of the woods extinguishes its dumpster fire culture. Simple as that. Whether that takes 5 years or 500 years, you do you and then come back and see us when you can play nice.
 
I don't claim to be a moderate Muslim, or that Islam is at all compatible with liberalism. I'm a traditionalist Sunni.

With that in mind, the idea that Wahhabism is "real Islam," or that it's "deeply rooted in Islam" is ahistorical horseshit.

Wahhabism is a little over 200 years old, and the entire basis of Wahhabism is rejecting over 1000 years of 'ijma (consensus) in favor of newer interpretations. They call the entirety of the Islamic scholarly tradition prior to the writings of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab heretical and misguided (with the exception of a handful of marginal figures, and they even reject the bulk of what those figures wrote). They accuse the two orthodox schools of Sunni theology of disbelief. If Wahhabism is Islam, then Islam was created by the First Saudi State in the 1700's.

From a traditional Sunni standpoint, the Wahhabis are idol-worshippers due to their contention that Allah has a physical body, and blasphemers against the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam) due to their denial of his intercession, and they are seen as being enemies and dismantlers of the shari'ah due to their rejection of the legal consensus of the fuqaha. The Wahhabis are basically the opposite of what non-Muslims think they are. They're a bunch of reformists who are constantly manufacturing completely new beliefs and new interpretations.

Personally, I agree with the fatwas made when the Wahhabi movement first started that stated that Wahhabis should be exterminated. Basically, what should be done to the modern Wahhabis is what Ibrahim Pasha did to the Wahhabis in Diriyah.
 
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Wahhabism is a little over 200 years old, and the entire basis of Wahhabism is rejecting over 1000 years of 'ijma (consensus) in favor of newer interpretations. They call the entirety of the Islamic scholarly tradition prior to the writings of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab heretical and misguided (with the exception of a handful of marginal figures, and they even reject the bulk of what those figures wrote). They accuse the two orthodox schools of Sunni theology of disbelief. If Wahhabism is Islam, then Islam was created by the First Saudi State in the 1700's.
If islam is 1400 years old and wahabism ignores the past 1000 years old then isn't it closer to the religion of mohammed? That seems to be the core of their argument and looking at the correlation of the behaviour of al baghdadi and his followers and mohammed and his I find that a hard argument to refute.

As I said earlier- it is irrelevant that they are doing islam 'wrong'- if large numbers of people read the koran and come away with a message of violence and oppression then there is a problem with islam.

They do and there is.
 
If islam is 1400 years old and wahabism ignores the past 1000 years old then isn't it closer to the religion of mohammed? That seems to be the core of their argument and looking at the correlation of the behaviour of al baghdadi and his followers and mohammed and his I find that a hard argument to refute.

I was writing that in a hurry so I said that in a confusing way. I meant that they are 200 years old and they ignore the first 1000+ years. Their books rarely cite classical scholars, in preference to citing a small number of Wahhabi scholars (Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, Hamad ibn Atiq, Nasruddin al-Albani, Abdul-Aziz bin Baz, ibn Uthaymeen). Though to be fair, ISIS even rejects most of those scholars because they were associated with the Saudi State (which they regard as in a state of apostasy). They even reject the even smaller number of "Salafi-Jihadi" scholars like Abu Qatadah and Shaykh al-Maqdisi because those scholars sided with Al-Qaeda in the dispute between AQ and ISIS. ISIS has no scholarly backing whatsoever, even from the marginal Wahhabi tradition. They're literally a bunch of teens and 20-somethings who can't read classical Arabic making up religious rulings on the fly.

The traditonalist Sunni position is that Wahhabis have an extreme lack of reverence for the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam). In a recent debate in England, a Salafi preacher compared the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) compared the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam) to a dead dog. A few years back an ISIS spokesman said that if the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam) were alive, he'd have to follow them. This is why traditionalist Sunnis in Pakistan often refer to Wahhabis as the "Gustakh-e-Rasul" (Revilers of the Messenger).

When you actually study the corpus of authentic Sunni ahadith, the actions of ISIS don't resemble those of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam) or the ashab al-kiram, they resemble the acts of the Khawarij (the early dissident group that assassinated the Fourth Rightly Guided khalifah, Mawla Ali al-Murtadha, karramallahu wajhu), or the illegimate Umayyad ruler, Yazid (who murdered the Prophet's grandson, Sayyidina al-Husayn, alayhis salam, and his family). The Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam) laid down rules for warfare, and ISIS has never followed any of them. They don't respect the shari'ah in that case or in any other.

If you are a traditionalist Sunni, do you agree gays, adulteresses and idol worshippers should be put to death under sharia law?

As for gays, I'm a Hanafi, so I don't believe sodomy carries a death penalty. It carries a ta'zir punishment, which is determined by a judge and can be corporal punishment of up to ten lashes, imprisonment, or exile.

As for adultery, the hukm is that both adulterers and adulteresses are stoned to death.

As for idol worshippers, according to the majority of classical jurists (mostly of the Hanafi and Maliki schools), there is nothing entailing a death penalty on any idol worshipper who does not make war with the Muslims. The command to kill idolators is restricted to the idolators of the Arab peninsula of the time of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam). Non-Arab idolators who are conquered by Muslims are allowed to pay the jizyah just as the Ahl al-Kitab are (this is what happened to the Hindus in Mughal India). However, the definition of idolator is debatable, and some of the classical jurists actually argued that the Hindus (and Jains and Buddhists) were not idol-worshippers, but were people of the book because they possessed scriptures. This as based on an analogy with how the Zoroastrians or Iran had been regarded.
 
As for gays, I'm a Hanafi, so I don't believe sodomy carries a death penalty. It carries a ta'zir punishment, which is determined by a judge and can be corporal punishment of up to ten lashes, imprisonment, or exile.

As for adultery, the hukm is that both adulterers and adulteresses are stoned to death.
and there are the problems of islam laid bare.

If your beliefs are typical of islam then wahabism is far from the only issue and quite frankly the west (and the world generally) would be a better place if we were rid of such beliefs.

Illiberal, oppressive and backwards.
 
and there are the problems of islam laid bare.

Only if you believe a very specific secular worldview that is barely decades old is the Platonic standard by which all reality should be judged.

If your beliefs are typical of islam then wahabism is far from the only issue and quite frankly the west (and the world generally) would be a better place if we were rid of such beliefs.

My personal experiences with foreign Muslims have shown that my beliefs aren't very typical. Most of the people I've found agreeing with me are a fairly specific subset of Pakistani and Indian Sufi mystics.

I'm a convert and most born Muslims (western-born or foreign) I've met are fairly taken by modernistic and liberal interpretation. Maybe not as liberal as you, but far to the left of me.

Illiberal, oppressive and backwards.

I find modern liberalism to be the most ass-backwards thing in existence.
 
As for gays, I'm a Hanafi, so I don't believe sodomy carries a death penalty. It carries a ta'zir punishment, which is determined by a judge and can be corporal punishment of up to ten lashes, imprisonment, or exile.

That's for a first offense. Repeat offenders are put to death.

I assume that you believe all death penalties administrated by Islam are just, and therefore support the capital punishment of repeat offender sodomites and adulterers by a proper sharia court?
 
I'm a convert and most born Muslims (western-born or foreign) I've met are fairly taken by modernistic and liberal interpretation. Maybe not as liberal as you, but far to the left of me.
by western standards I'm firmly right- anyone right of me is straying towards a brown shirt.
I'm a convert and most born Muslims (western-born or foreign) I've met are fairly taken by modernistic and liberal interpretation. Maybe not as liberal as you, but far to the left of me.
I'm pleased to hear it.

I find modern liberalism to be the most ass-backwards thing in existence
and yet classical liberalism brought us all the riches of the modern western world while the middle east burns and islamic countries remain hotbeds of rape, murder and slavery.
 
That's for a first offense. Repeat offenders are put to death.

Not according to the mashhur opinion of the Hanafi madhhab. According to the Hanafi fuqaha, a hadd punishment can only be established through mutawatir (mass-transmitted) evidence, and all of the hadith prescribing a dealth penalty for sodomy are khabar ahad (singular transmissions). Also, the Shafi'is make qiyas (analogy) between adultery and sodomy, but the Hanafis do not allow a hadd to be based on qiyas.

I assume that you believe all death penalties administrated by Islam are just, and therefore support the capital punishment of repeat offender sodomites and adulterers by a proper sharia court?

There is no such thing as a "penalty administered by Islam." There are penalties prescribed in Islam, but penalties are administered by men, and men can be flawed. However, if the court happens to operate in an area where the majority madhhab is one that prescribes the death penalty for sodomy, then I have no say in that. That becomes a matter of 'urf (established custom).
 
and yet classical liberalism brought us all the riches of the modern western world while the middle east burns and islamic countries remain hotbeds of rape, murder and slavery.

Western decadence has wrought nothing good to the world, compare only the peaks of America and Europe with the peaks of Saudi Arabia and the MENA and you can see immediately which culture is superior, infidel scum
 
Not according to the mashhur opinion of the Hanafi madhhab. According to the Hanafi fuqaha, a hadd punishment can only be established through mutawatir (mass-transmitted) evidence, and all of the hadith prescribing a dealth penalty for sodomy are khabar ahad (singular transmissions). Also, the Shafi'is make qiyas (analogy) between adultery and sodomy, but the Hanafis do not allow a hadd to be based on qiyas.



There is no such thing as a "penalty administered by Islam." There are penalties prescribed in Islam, but penalties are administered by men, and men can be flawed. However, if the court happens to operate in an area where the majority madhhab is one that prescribes the death penalty for sodomy, then I have no say in that. That becomes a matter of 'urf (established custom).

You know it would have been quicker and easier to just type 'Yeah those faggots and sluts deserve it', right?
 
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