Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Absolutego]

Another Victory like Bakhmut, and Russia will lose the war.

It's ok bby I know what you were referencing.
Good ol' Pyrrhus of Epirus

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

If Ukrainian forces are indeed leaving Bakhmut, I would imagine they have a whole lot of artillery pointed at it just salivating in anticipation of Russians moving in, and god knows what else.
They seem to be under the impression that Ukraine would just allow Russians to use it freely? Heh, okay.

 

[teriyakiburns]

They're currently too busy discussing how Putin's going to annex Ukraine and hand its westernmost territories to Moldova and Poland to curry international favor. Because Bakhmut is occupied now, which means total Ukrainian capitulation is right around the corner.

Are they high? What is it with the Rus and their constant fantasies about partitioning Ukraine like it was Germany in 1946- oh. Ohhh...

Interesting that Bakhmut is simultaneously a death trap for the entire hohol army because only two decent roads run out of it going northwest and southwest (and the entire hohol army is apparently in the city), but it will also be the key logistics hub for the pacification of the Donbass according to the very smart analysis I've seen from vatniggers this week

The contradiction is not noticed

I said it before in the old thread: They're after the railhead. Russia's logistics plans assume the ability to transport by rail, which has left their road transport abilities severely compromised. The RF just about controls the railway line running south and east of the city, though it's perilously close to the front line. Getting the yards at Bakhmut, even if they're fairly small, lets them bring reinforcements right up the the front, without having to transport them by roads or expending resources driving them directly across country. Their plan is presumably to run up the M-03 to Sloviansk and and try to encircle Kramatorsk. Or perhaps bypass that and head straight to Izium.

 

[Absolutego]

Are they high? What is it with the Rus and their constant fantasies about partitioning Ukraine like it was Germany in 1946- oh. Ohhh...

I will admit it was just one sperg in that thread but he thought somehow Putin could hand the upper Carpathians to the Poles as a peace offering while simultaneously coup-ing the current Moldovan government so it was Transnistria in all but name and giving them all the shoreline up to Odessa for...reasons... and the global order would just tolerate it.

 

[Techpriest Mk II]

Are they high? What is it with the Rus and their constant fantasies about partitioning Ukraine like it was Germany in 1946- oh. Ohhh...


I said it before in the old thread: They're after the railhead. Russia's logistics plans assume the ability to transport by rail, which has left their road transport abilities severely compromised. The RF just about controls the railway line running south and east of the city, though it's perilously close to the front line. Getting the yards at Bakhmut, even if they're fairly small, lets them bring reinforcements right up the the front, without having to transport them by roads or expending resources driving them directly across country. Their plan is presumably to run up the M-03 to Sloviansk and and try to encircle Kramatorsk. Or perhaps bypass that and head straight to Izium.

While the railhead is nice it's functionally useless until they push further beyond the town. Right now it's inside HIMARS and tube artillery range.

 

[teriyakiburns]

While the railhead is nice it's functionally useless until they push further beyond the town. Right now it's inside HIMARS and tube artillery range.

I know that. You know that. They know that. Their doctrine doesn't know that. It should be obvious that the Russian military, even now, is still crippled by slavish adherence to outdated and inappropriate military doctrines.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

While the railhead is nice it's functionally useless until they push further beyond the town. Right now it's inside HIMARS and tube artillery range.

When it comes to railroads, I just have one questions. What stops Ukraine from, well... blowing them up? They can't exactly hide from artillery.
Relying on railways to supply the front directly in modern warfare seems kind of insane. Am I the stupid one here?

 

[teriyakiburns]

When it comes to railroads, I just have one questions. What stops Ukraine from, well... blowing them up? They can't exactly hide from artillery.

Nothing. The bridge they blew up in bakhmut (earlier in the thread) is a rail bridge.

 

[Techpriest Mk II]

I know that. You know that. They know that. Their doctrine doesn't know that. It should be obvious that the Russian military, even now, is still crippled by slavish adherence to outdated and inappropriate military doctrines.

When I look at the rail lines in more detail it becomes even more useless since the major links are elsewhere in the network.

When it comes to railroads, I just have one questions. What stops Ukraine from, well... blowing them up? They can't exactly hide from artillery.

Railroads can be repaired rather quickly, and you would need to hit them directly with artillery most of the time. Railroads are tough, they have to be since they carry lots of weight.

 

[Blatant hypocrite]

If Ukrainian forces are indeed leaving Bakhmut, I would imagine they have a whole lot of artillery pointed at it just salivating in anticipation of Russians moving in, and god knows what else.
They seem to be under the impression that Ukraine would just allow Russians to use it freely? Heh, okay.

The "lure them into the city then shoot" strategy is a cope the Russians made up when losing Kherson. Mines, planted explosives, etc will definitely see a lot of use, but the amount of artillery shells they can fire doesn't magically increase.

That's not to say that taking the city isn't a mistake, or that it isn't costly. They have been paying for Bakhmut every day for the last 7 months, and soon it will probably be theirs.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

That's not to say that taking the city isn't a mistake, or that it isn't costly. They have been paying for Bakhmut every day for the last 7 months, and soon it will probably be theirs.

They've got no choice now, not pushing to take it would be an absolute disaster for morale. I mean we're talking enormous casualties and losses of equipment for this objective...and I still don't even know why it's so important.

Reminds me of Guderian's quote about the Kursk offensive.

 

[AgendaPoster]

Lavrov is laughed at in India when he claims that Ukraine was "used" to attack Russia, which we all know is smol and dindu nuffin.

And the Moldovan government is trying (for probably the 10th time by now) to reclassifiy the invented "Moldovan language" which is a Soviet political creation, to Romanian as it should be. Some more details about this issue in the second screenshot (older 2018 AP article), which is settled for linguists, but the truth is language here is just a political issue - openly recognizing that Moldovans speak Romanian makes it clear that they belong to the Romanian ethnic group, as there are no visible differences - only the Romanian dialect differs.
Acknowledging the shared Romanian language so openly would pretty much be an open declaration of "we belong to Europe, not Russia".
As expected, Russian politicians are seething and unhappy with it.

 

[GatorAids]

Remember when the has-been actor Sean Penn was against the Iraq war? Pepperidge Farm remembers and weird to see him flip-flopped about the Ukraine war from what I saw on that clip.

Almost like they're similar situations and retards can't comprehend ideological consistancy. Can't believe I'm defending this faggot. The US invading Iraq because they don't like the government of Iraq and using false pretenses to justify occupying Iraq was bad. Russia invading Ukraine using false pretenses because they don't like their government is also bad. This isn't a hard concept to grasp unless you have the IQ of a baccilus.

 

[DumbDude43]

Almost like they're similar situations and retards can't comprehend ideological consistancy. Can't believe I'm defending this faggot. The US invading Iraq because they don't like the government of Iraq and using false pretenses to justify occupying Iraq was bad. Russia invading Ukraine using false pretenses because they don't like their government is also bad. This isn't a hard concept to grasp unless you have the IQ of a baccilus.

while this is true in principle, there are significant differences, notably saddams invasion of kuwait which is what originally made the burgers see baathist iraq as a real enemy

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

Relying on railways to supply the front directly in modern warfare seems kind of insane. Am I the stupid one here?

Railways are easy to repair. Easier than roads.

 

[Resident Cheeser]

while this is true in principle, there are significant differences, notably saddams invasion of kuwait which is what originally made the burgers see baathist iraq as a real enemy

Exactly, the most accurate comparison would be with Russia as Iraq and Ukraine as Kuwait. If Iraq had nukes it probably would have ended up with even more similarities (in addition to both Putin and Saddam's love of killing their own people for literally no reason).

 

[DumbDude43]

Railways are easy to repair. Easier than roads.

no
or rather, it depends on the kind of damage. with holes/cracks/craters in a road you need to add some fresh asphalt, with damaged railway you need to bring replacement steel tracks and thermite weld them in place. both require specialized equipment and trained workers.
but the big difference is that a damaged road can still be used, or is at least easy to makeshift-fix by random laymen to the point where it's usable again. you can just dump sand or gravel on top of the damage and the area around it, and get it to a point where vehicles can get across with relative ease.
meanwhile a damaged railway track is completely unusable because your train will fucking derail and cause a gigantic catastrophe if it tries to drive across, and fixing it is impossible unless you have trained specialists and equipment on site.

 

[Techpriest Mk II]

no
or rather, it depends on the kind of damage. with holes/cracks/craters in a road you need to add some fresh asphalt, with damaged railway you need to bring replacement steel tracks and thermite weld them in place. both require specialized equipment and trained workers.
but the big difference is that a damaged road can still be used, or is at least easy to makeshift-fix by random laymen to the point where it's usable again. you can just dump sand or gravel on top of the damage and the area around it, and get it to a point where vehicles can get across with relative ease.
meanwhile a damaged railway track is completely unusable because your train will fucking derail and cause a gigantic catastrophe if it tries to drive across, and fixing it is impossible unless you have trained specialists and equipment on site.

Russia has a very large military train repair crew and engineering units dedicated to that. Not a huge shock. It's specialized work but they're more than capable of quickly doing it.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

Considering even Pro-Russian sources are now saying the number Ukrainian of troops in Bakhmut is now not even a Battalion (1k soldiers) anymore, meaning most of them successfully retreated. So, they don't even get the big encirclement they were hyping up since Soledar fell a month and a half ago.

In serious terms I have no doubt a ton of Ukies did die, but I also have no doubt an equal or more Russians died as well. The sad thing is Bakhmut won't be the beginning of the end as Pro-Russians want it to be nor is it irrelevent like the Pro-Ukies want it to be, Russia gets to advance further into Donbass, but they've been stuck on Bakhmut for so long another daunting defensive line is awaiting them right after it.

At least this allows Russia to distract from the fact they are using tanks and IFVs like they're dedicated mine clearing vehicles in Ugledar, because as we all know it's impossible for Russia's military to learn a fucking thing, say what you will about Ukraine, but at least when they saw how horrible their military was in 2014 they cleaned up their act.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

In serious terms I have no doubt a ton of Ukies did die, but I also have no doubt an equal or more Russians died as well. The sad thing is Bakhmut won't be the beginning of the end as Pro-Russians want it to be nor is it irrelevent like the Pro-Ukies want it to be, Russia gets to advance further into Donbass, but they've been stuck on Bakhmut for so long another daunting defensive line is awaiting them right after it.

The other factor is Russia's logistical issues are still daunting and haven't improved appreciably if at all. When they do advance, what reason is there to believe the same problems that forced them to retreat before won't happen again?