The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

All Chuggers arguments here are given in more detail on codoh.com by poster Bombsaway, or BA. Chugger and this poster are most likely the very same person. Nevertheless, they are dealt with in excellent detail which makes tremendous reading for the interested budding holocaust scholar;

BA's case for orthodoxy

The CODOH Revisionist Forum: Holocaust Revisionism and WWII Revisionism Discussion / the time for honesty has come.

forum.codoh.com

Actually that seems to be another of your delusions. Show me exactly where anyone in the thread presents a counter hypothesis that can withstand scrutiny, or answers some of BA's more salient points, eg their quotation from a military history book about the serious logistical problems facing the German army. In 41/42 the Germans had winter clothes for their army but in the best case scenario could only deliver months later, and at the expense of vital army needs.

The feeding and housing of millions of Jews in this area (conservatively 1.5 million Reinhard/Chelmno Jews + 500k unregistered 'disappeared' Auschwitz Jews + 500k non-employable Jews evicted from the USSR ghettos) along army supply lines would have disrupted army planning to some appreciable degree no? Why is there no mention of this in any military history books or memoirs?

 

[mrolonzo]

Actually that seems to be another of your delusions. Show me exactly where anyone in the thread presents a counter hypothesis that can withstand scrutiny, or answers some of BA's more salient points, eg their quotation from a military history book about the serious logistical problems facing the German army. In 41/42 the Germans had winter clothes for their army but in the best case scenario could only deliver months later, and at the expense of vital army needs.

View attachment 4716840

The feeding and housing of millions of Jews in this area (conservatively 1.5 million Reinhard/Chelmno Jews + 500k unregistered 'disappeared' Auschwitz Jews + 500k non-employable Jews evicted from the USSR ghettos) along army supply lines would have disrupted army planning to some appreciable degree no? Why is there no mention of this in any military history books or memoirs?

Your points are dealt with from the first post. By Lamprecht, Hektor, Otium, butterfangers. They also reference the good work of Nazgul.

Why is there no mention of disruption to military supply? It seems there is indeed such mention.

The actual documents mention the intent to deport quite clearly. Most likely the need to supply the troops took greater priority. But feel free to break down what you want to assert into something more sensible.

At this point I present some fascinating memes from the codoh thread for kiwis to enjoy. See attached

 

[ranting patriarch]

Actually that seems to be another of your delusions. Show me exactly where anyone in the thread presents a counter hypothesis that can withstand scrutiny, or answers some of BA's more salient points, eg their quotation from a military history book about the serious logistical problems facing the German army. In 41/42 the Germans had winter clothes for their army but in the best case scenario could only deliver months later, and at the expense of vital army needs.

View attachment 4716840

The feeding and housing of millions of Jews in this area (conservatively 1.5 million Reinhard/Chelmno Jews + 500k unregistered 'disappeared' Auschwitz Jews + 500k non-employable Jews evicted from the USSR ghettos) along army supply lines would have disrupted army planning to some appreciable degree no? Why is there no mention of this in any military history books or memoirs?

You need to understand that the Soviet tried to coverup the lysenkoist & collective farming famines by adding 5 million non-existent Russians to their census. They had an artificial deficit on the books that was eventually balanced by the influx of 5 million jews 10 years later. Those deported Jews went to areas that were hollowed out by famines, replacing people who had recently died at a near 1:1 ratio. That is why nothing about this is sticking out.

 

[Chugger]

You need to understand that the Soviet tried to coverup the lysenkoist & collective farming famines by adding 5 million non-existent Russians to their census.

Except there's no evidence of this, they would have no reason to (USSR was an authoritarian state and they had full internal control), and the 1937 census, as well as other statistics, show massive population deficit in the Ukraine as well as other areas.

But my critique of the revisionist narrative is not based on population censuses, but the total lack of evidence for the resettlement and internment of millions of Jews that the Germans (according to their own documents) removed from their territories. mrolonzo may say this critique was thoroughly addressed by [list of posters on some Codoh thread] but that doesn't mean it was. Even the most respected revisionist authors have punted on this question.

 

[mrolonzo]

Except there's no evidence of this, they would have no reason to (USSR was an authoritarian state and they had full internal control), and the 1937 census, as well as other statistics, show massive population deficit in the Ukraine as well as other areas.

But my critique of the revisionist narrative is not based on population censuses, but the total lack of evidence for the resettlement and internment of millions of Jews that the Germans (according to their own documents) removed from their territories. mrolonzo may say this critique was thoroughly addressed by [list of posters on some Codoh thread] but that doesn't mean it was. Even the most respected revisionist authors have punted on this question.

Yeah it was addressed. It does mean that. There is no total lack of evidence. This was explained to you. You just blithely pretend it wasn't. Occasionally you'll state that the evidence is not to your satisfaction.

You fundamentally accept revisionist work anyway already, thus you don't contest it. It's the conclusion you battle against. This is typical in HC circles.

 

[Chugger]

Yeah it was addressed. It does mean that. There is no total lack of evidence.

If this is the case please describe (with witness or documentary evidence) what happened to some of the Jews during their resettlement in German occupied USSR.

This might include specific settlements they went to, what their lives were like there, the housing, health, and food situation. All these things are abundantly available for the 100k Jews resettled in Romanian occupied USSR territory (even tiny settlements are known in detail), so it's reasonable to assume much more would be available for the millions of Jews apparently housed in German occupied USSR.

 

[mrolonzo]

If this is the case please describe (with witness or documentary evidence) what happened to some of the Jews during their resettlement in German occupied USSR.

This might include specific settlements they went to, what their lives were like there, the housing, healthcare, and food situation. All these things are abundantly available for the 100k Jews resettled in Romanian occupied USSR territory (even tiny settlements are known in detail), so it's reasonable to assume much more would be available for the millions of Jews apparently housed in German occupied USSR.

We already have evidence of Jews being found alive in the east. Its unlikely most had time or resource to build a significant settlement. Is there something you wish to contest on the codoh thread I linked to?

In any case, it's conclusively shown by the germans own documents that the final solution was resettlement and that was to be postponed until after the war.

 

[Chugger]

We already have evidence of Jews being found alive in the east. Its unlikely most had time or resource to build a significant settlement. Is there something you wish to contest on the codoh thread I linked to?

In any case, it's conclusively shown by the germans own documents that the final solution was resettlement and that was to be postponed until after the war.

If many hundreds of thousands of "resettled Jews" were simply let off the trains and left to their own devices (which majorly clashes with all known Nazi policy) there should be ample documentary and witness evidence of this, so my criticism of your narrative still stands. Something like this would have had millions of witnesses, and the arrival of all these Jews noted as a major security threat by German police, which for example killed off virtually the entire non-working population of Belarus (including children and elderly) for allegedly helping partisans.

But no evidence whatsoever has been presented -- not by you, not on codoh, not in any revisionist book. Though maybe I missed something?

 

[Bonesjones]

See the Germans kept immaculate records, so if they don't exist it must be because they were hiding something. Of course if they did they can only prove how guilty they are. It's not like the entire territory was held by a country with an axe to grind or something to hide. Don't you know how blameless the Soviets are? COMMUNISM HAS NEVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG EVER!

 

[CuzinEd]

The holocaust didn't happen at least not the way the Jewish media claims.

The Germans wanted to remove the Jews from Europe and the Jews agreed with this. The Germans were going to ship the Jews to Palestine which was still called Palestine back then. Google the Haavara agreement. The Germans were rounding Jews up and putting them into camps for deportation. Most of the deaths in the camps were caused by starvation and typhus. The camps were supplied with the same rail lines the Germans were using to supply their army. The allies were bombing these rail lines. Typhus was a major issue in the camps. Such an issue that the Germans were delousing clothes and shoes using Zyklon B. The only thing getting gassed by Zyklon B in the camps were lice. All the gas chambers that were said to be used to gas Jews lack the well known Prussian blue staining that Zyklon B would have caused. This staining can't be removed. The only place you find this blue staining is in the chambers used for delousing clothing and shoes. The chambers supposedly used to gas the Jews weren't even fit for the purpose. The people doing the gassing would have gassed themselves.

You also have another issue like most of the camps were in Eastern Europe. It's well known that the Soviets used the camps after the war was over and that they used them in propaganda against the Germans after the war. They could have done anything to the camps to incriminate the Germans. Also, some of the Jews that were killed were probably communist as well. So, they weren't killed for just being Jewish but being Bolsheviks that happened to also be Jews. This would account for some of the deaths as well.

The camps had theaters and pools. These are odd to things have in camps meant to kill people. I don't think the Germans would have been worried about the Jews enjoying themselves before they killed them. There are other issues as well like the fact that each camp had about 50 or so guards stationed at them. Camps that were supposed to contain and kill hundreds of thousands of people. Yet none of the prisoners ever fought against the guards though they clearly outnumbered them. If you really think about it the whole story of the Holocaust makes no sense at all.

So much of the Holocaust hoax has been debunked as well. The story of soap made out of Jews was a lie and so was the lie about the lampshades made out of the skin of Jews. The 6 million death total has been exposed as a total fabrication. The death total of the holocaust was most likely about 200,000-250,000 or so. Again, this was mostly caused by typhus spread by lice and starvation caused by the allies bombing the Germans rail lines. There wasn't even 6 million jews anywhere in Europe at the time. The Anne Frank diary has been completely debunked. Most holocaust survivor claims have also been proven to be made up as well.

The Holocaust needs to come under greater scrutiny. Truth does not fear investigation.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

At this point I present some fascinating memes from the codoh thread for kiwis to enjoy. See attached

Pretty weak meme game

 

[mrolonzo]

Pretty weak meme game

They're not really memes to be fair. More infographics.

 

[Chugger]

The death total of the holocaust was most likely about 200,000-250,000 or so.

The fact that worker Jews died in droves during the war from disease, starvation, and overwork is accepted by historians. Rather the whole subject concerns the Jews designated in Nazi documents as non-employable and which the most respected revisionists (see Holocaust Handbooks--Mattogno, Rudolf, Graf, Kues) claim were housed in the east by the millions. As I pointed out to mrolonzo, there is no direct evidence of this. Far more direct evidence exists of a large scale genocidal program where Jews killed through intentional privation, shootings and poison gas.

The 6 million death total has been exposed as a total fabrication.

Can you support the claim that the 5-6 million figure currently espoused is a fabrication? Raul Hilberg's foundational 1961 study is available on libgen for your perusal (his figure is around 5 million and he explains exactly how he arrived there, relying mostly on German wartime documents)

 

[870EVO]

I am interested in the things I'm constantly finding out that were never shown to me. There was a Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden in 1939.

1939 Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So it seems there was institutional support for Germany up until that point. What changed I wonder?

 

[CuzinEd]

The fact that worker Jews died in droves during the war from disease, starvation, and overwork is accepted by historians. Rather the whole subject concerns the Jews designated in Nazi documents as non-employable and which the most respected revisionists (see Holocaust Handbooks--Mattogno, Rudolf, Graf, Kues) claim were housed in the east by the millions. As I pointed out to mrolonzo, there is no direct evidence of this. Far more direct evidence exists of a large scale genocidal program where Jews killed through intentional privation, shootings and poison gas.



Can you support the claim that the 5-6 million figure currently espoused is a fabrication? Raul Hilberg's foundational 1961 study is available on libgen for your perusal (his figure is around 5 million and he explains exactly how he arrived there, relying mostly on German wartime documents)

I doubt there were millions of Jews housed in the East anywhere. Holohoax death totals were about 200,000-250,000. No one was gassed in any camps. The gas chambers weren't even gas chambers. The only thing the Germans gassed were lice. That was done to stop the spread of typhus so it wouldn't kill the people in the camps they supposedly wanted to kill. I don't know about you, but dead is dead. It doesn't matter how it happens. But the war caused the lice and typhus situation to get out of hand.

Raul Hilberg is a Jew and anything he says about the Holohoax can't be trusted. The vast majority of Jews support the Holohoax myth. Anything they say should be disregarded.

I would provide sources but most of the stuff in my previous post is stuff I learned about years ago. Probably well over a decade ago. It's probably stuff that has been purged from internet due to censorship. But you can google it yourself and look for the information. Though you might want to use something other than Google considering how they censor so much.

 

[Stickerman]

@History Speaks, this is somewhat off-topic but as this does involve you I would like an answer if you are willing. So, I remember you distinctly talking to Ryan Faulk (The Alternative Hypothesis) on Twitter about his views on the Holocaust. I always thought despite his skepticism he was generally in agreement with the historical consensus. His position seems to have changed and I haven't payed much attention to him since he went to Nick Fuentes' unremarkable alt-tech platform Cozy.tv. I remember reading your comments critiquing the "Where Did the Jews Go?" video, and I found myself in agreement with them, but Ryan hasn't given them much thought as I've seen.

Has he ever got back to you on that?

 

[mrolonzo]

I doubt there were millions of Jews housed in the East anywhere. Holohoax death totals were about 200,000-250,000. No one was gassed in any camps. The gas chambers weren't even gas chambers. The only thing the Germans gassed were lice. That was done to stop the spread of typhus so it wouldn't kill the people in the camps they supposedly wanted to kill. I don't know about you, but dead is dead. It doesn't matter how it happens. But the war caused the lice and typhus situation to get out of hand.

Raul Hilberg is a Jew and anything he says about the Holohoax can't be trusted. The vast majority of Jews support the Holohoax myth. Anything they say should be disregarded.

I would provide sources but most of the stuff in my previous post is stuff I learned about years ago. Probably well over a decade ago. It's probably stuff that has been purged from internet due to censorship. But you can google it yourself and look for the information. Though you might want to use something other than Google considering how they censor so much.

There's no need to provide anything here to chugger. It's all been presented here already. He's just ignored it all and repeated his baseless assertions as we knew he would.

@History Speaks, this is somewhat off-topic but as this does involve you I would like an answer if you are willing. So, I remember you distinctly talking to Ryan Faulk (The Alternative Hypothesis) on Twitter about his views on the Holocaust. I always thought despite his skepticism he was generally in agreement with the historical consensus. His position seems to have changed and I haven't payed much attention to him since he went to Nick Fuentes' unremarkable alt-tech platform Cozy.tv. I remember reading your comments critiquing the "Where Did the Jews Go?" video, and I found myself in agreement with them, but Ryan hasn't given them much thought as I've seen.

Has he ever got back to you on that?

No he hasn't because these arguments were and are presented and dealt with on codoh. HS and Chugger have yet to respond to most of them though it is suspected that they use sock puppets now after avoiding yet another challenge to their honesty.

 

[History Speaks]

Has he ever got back to you on that?

No, Faulk blocked me and ran away, falsely accusing me of being a Jew. But sit tight: I will have a response video to his original video in, let's say, 3-5 weeks.


Zo - I have no idea what you are talking about as I have never used CODOH since they starting censoring me several months back. I have not made another account.

 

[Chugger]

It's probably stuff that has been purged from internet due to censorship. But you can google it yourself and look for the information.

This is the most remedial version of holocaust revisionism. You probably don't care, I guess that's fine.

To be clear, Nazi documents plainly show removal of millions of Jews from German territories. Not all revisionists are completely unscrupulous when it comes to sources, so they have to offer some rationalization of this --> millions of Jews housed in Russia.

No he hasn't because these arguments were and are presented and dealt with on codoh. HS and Chugger have yet to respond to most of them though it is suspected that they use sock puppets now after avoiding yet another challenge to their honesty.

I don't have time to go through the reams of ill considered arguments posted on Codoh, but what's the strongest or a very strong point that I haven't responded to? I wager it will be very easy to respond to, not so with you and the last question I posed https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/post-15360698

please describe (with witness or documentary evidence) what happened to some of the Jews during their resettlement in German occupied USSR

There's no information here, and no explanation has been provided as to how probably the largest resettlement in history left no trace. If you don't believe this happened to millions of people, you're going to have to explain (eg) the numerous censuses of Poland which show millions of Jews there in 1941-42, but only 200k by 1943

 

[Bonesjones]

To be clear, Nazi documents make clear millions of Jews were removed from German territories. Not all revisionists are completely unscrupulous when it comes to sources, so they have to offer some rationalization of this --> millions of Jews housed in Russia.

Airports, train stations, bus stations all don't keep track of people once they leave their destination. They only consider the routes and tickets sold. Since they don't track anything else, are you saying no one has ever traveled? No one knows where those people end up. So they must not exist.

The population of New Orleans dropped significantly after Katrina, does that mean millions of people died in the hurricane? They must have.