Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

In the War of the Triple Alliance? Are fucking kidding me bro?
Hell, even in the Chincha Islands War you had two Peruvian presidents get thrown out of office right after another as a result of their unwillingness to declare war on Spain. They weren't even at war yet and already you had popular uprisings!
 
Real talk I fucking hate all the historic revisionism that's been going on in the past year. Like I've seen people arguing in real life for hours if Russians are mongolians or Ukrainians are just peasant Russians.
Both sides have their own takes about Russian and Ukrainian history and there's "acclaimed historians" on yelling at each other about stuff most people took for granted or didn't care about two years ago.
I feel like I'm living in one of the biggest gaslighting periods ever.
 
Real talk I fucking hate all the historic revisionism that's been going on in the past year. Like I've seen people arguing in real life for hours if Russians are mongolians or Ukrainians are just peasant Russians.
Both sides have their own takes about Russian and Ukrainian history and there's "acclaimed historians" on yelling at each other about stuff most people took for granted or didn't care about two years ago.
I feel like I'm living in one of the biggest gaslighting periods ever.
People like forming opinions and giving hot takes, there is no new thing under the sun.

The instant pivot to everyone switching from Kiev to Kyiv was weird and one of the best pieces of evidence for unified control of government and media I've ever seen, but people arguing about things going on in the world is normal.
 
Biden's policy on China and Russia has been surprisingly tough (at least from the bit I've seen).
Biden is a 'generic POTUS' - lawyer, has a military episode, has cash. Every 'generic president' (not Nixon, not Obama, not Trump and such abominations) probably will have similar reaction to ongoing war involving ruzzia or China.

Every country has some never changing aims. Such aim for USA is to make ruzzia and China weaker if possible (and his aim is just supporting biger aim: to still be the sole superpower, which is also supporting aim to conserve current staye of USA as the best place to make big bussiness). If the current rulers of any country aren't just stupid they will never perform action against vital interests of own country (and yes, Trump was that stupid or most of latino politicians are stupid enough to fuck own countries to the shit).

All three wars were very complex situations and if what you take out of it is that the US military sucks you really don't know jack shit about them.
And the funny part is that in Iraq and Afghanistan US military succed: they smashed to shit Iraqi army and smashed to shit most of Afghan. Part they loss Afghan was after war, when they didn't know what to do with this shithole, so they pointed randoms without any support to rule that country.

This is just one of problems with making interventions in that part of world - after all, who should rule in conqured country? And all white guys make terrible mistakes with this part.

To make a working government in a a Middle East islamic country the rule must be based on Islam. No fucking expections. They just didn't know anything other than islam philosophy, so it is impossible to install in that part of world government based on western democracy or eastern dicking (so Assad will fall after withdrawn of ruzzkies), this is same case of why USA never will become a tsardom or a communist country like China. Local population just have no fucking clue how should it work.

Like I've seen people arguing in real life for hours if Russians are mongolians
But they are mongolians. Definetly history of ruzzia is dominated by they connections with Mongolians and also they state have extreme different construction than any other slavic state.
 
People like forming opinions and giving hot takes, there is no new thing under the sun.

The instant pivot to everyone switching from Kiev to Kyiv was weird and one of the best pieces of evidence for unified control of government and media I've ever seen, but people arguing about things going on in the world is normal.
Yeah I get that but the Kiev Kyiv debacle was also a whiplash for me. In an instant all the news outlets, governments and media started using a name I've never heard once before that point.
 
People like forming opinions and giving hot takes, there is no new thing under the sun.

The instant pivot to everyone switching from Kiev to Kyiv was weird and one of the best pieces of evidence for unified control of government and media I've ever seen, but people arguing about things going on in the world is normal.
Such flip isn't unprecedented when Peking/Beijing and Koran/Quran happened pretty much same way.
 
Yeah I get that but the Kiev Kyiv debacle was also a whiplash for me. In an instant all the news outlets, governments and media started using a name I've never heard once before that point.
I thought it was just a silly Twitter thing, until I started to see "Chicken Kyivs" in the supermarket.

CNN says that Ukraine says that regular Russian troops have replaced Wagner Group in the battle for Bakhmut.

Extrapolating from what Perun and others have said, it would seem that after screwing Wagner out of supplies, the MoD wants to swoop in and take credit for the city's capture while Wagner is crippled.
 
I thought it was just a silly Twitter thing, until I started to see "Chicken Kyivs" in the supermarket.
It's like the "freedom fries" thing except this time it fits popular opinion. Freedom fries is funnier though
I think it's kind of silly as an English speaker, but then again a lot of the twitter response to the war has been stupid.
Ran into this livestream from a guy I used to be subscribed to during my NRx phase. Somewhat typical shit from a guy pretty clearly high on his own intelligence and with a general hateboner for the west, but he mentioned making a rebuttal to Perun's video on Russia's strategic position (which is a pretty solid video) which should be amusing. Of course, Charlemagne seems like a smart guy, given he promoted the idea that Russia's bumbled initial attack was actually because "Russia wasn't actually invading guyz, Zelensky was planning on handing the country over to them," (archive) thinks the push towards Kiev was "just a feint," Russia's invasion of Donetsk is partially out of "humanitarian concerns" and that "NATO isn't prepared for a peer war but Russia totally is" (archive), and of course lets us know Russia having larger numbers DEFINTELY means they'll be able to win no questions asked (archive).
Not exactly breaking news or whatever but I wanted to clown on him for being a tard.
 
Vietnam was actually a mix of guerilla - and conventional war.
Sort of. The NVA-proper got whupped in every engagement with US troops, only the US's continued refusal to send ground troops past the UN-mandated ceasefire line saved North Vietnam from getting curbed.
That versus Ukraine's conventional forces are actually holding ground, and their 'lightning push' produced real gains they've maintained.

The Paraguayan War nearly wiped out the nation's population (69% of Paraguay's population was killed, with 90% of the casualties being adult males; the male population crashed so bad, the Church briefly okayed polygamy to help it recover). The government was toppled and replaced with a Brazil friendly one, and Paraguay lost a good chunk of its territory. Its probably the most destructive war in modern times, in terms of the shear amount of damage it did to a nation state.
In the War of the Triple Alliance? Are fucking kidding me bro?
But the nation didn't implode and wasn't conquered.
Also its Paraguay. 70% of the population was like 10,000 people.

Hell, even in the Chincha Islands War you had two Peruvian presidents get thrown out of office right after another as a result of their unwillingness to declare war on Spain. They weren't even at war yet and already you had popular uprisings!
again, that's all internal stuggling and its not like the replacement governments weren't 90% the same people.
 
I've read the Russkie spellings too long and too many times to change. Kiev is Kiev, Lvov is Lvov, Kharkov is Kharkov, the Dnieper is the Dnieper, etc., I don't care

Peking/Beijing are the same word to me almost, it's six of one half a dozen of the other
The effort to change English transliteration for Ukrainian from Russian spelling to, well, Ukrainian, has been apparently happening for some time before the war, mostly in academic circles it seems. And it sort of makes logical sense, except it seems like such a pain in the ass and all for questionable gain.

Following centuries of Russia's attempts to extinguish Ukrainian language, it was being revived and made prominent again. This whole thing made me realize just how important language barrier is for protecting one's culture, from hostile infiltration and propaganda among other things.
There's a reason Russian Empire sought to eradicate it, and Russians today insist on calling Ukrainians "little russians", insinuating their superiority and dominance over "little brothers". How can they be separate people if they don't even have their own language? They speak Russian, so they must be Russian!
Is it any wonder everyone is so autistic about it.
 
CNN says that Ukraine says that regular Russian troops have replaced Wagner Group in the battle for Bakhmut.

Extrapolating from what Perun and others have said, it would seem that after screwing Wagner out of supplies, the MoD wants to swoop in and take credit for the city's capture while Wagner is crippled.
The whole reason why this battle goes so long already seems a bit fishy. "Bleed the Russians dry at low cost" - from my limited expertise the UAF is bleeding as hard as the Russkies in this area. So why hold on for this rather insignificant town?
My very own theory: last Ukrainian sucesses are too long ago (too long in the modern information age dimension), war is taking a heavy tool in the west, Russia is committed to go through the end, China may start a lendlease, they have to show something or the aid will stop coming or they'll be forced to surrender, despite Russian initial plan have failed they showed great strength against sanctions and have the support of the population.

All in all I think Bakhmut could honestly turn into a dangerous situation for the whole Ukrainian war cause. Zelensky could decide to invest too many reserves in the defence of the city. Forces that are needed for the upcoming counterpush in the Summer.
 
The whole reason why this battle goes so long already seems a bit fishy. "Bleed the Russians dry at low cost" - from my limited expertise the UAF is bleeding as hard as the Russkies in this area. So why hold on for this rather insignificant town?
Because from what we actually know, this is simply untrue. Recently there's been articles claiming that Russia is likely suffering losses as high as 5:1 compared to Ukraine (not necessarily true, but it's best we have). Which fits the commonly accepted idea that to overwhelm defended positions, you need superior numbers, which is what Russia is trying to do, failing to achieve any significant gains. It stands to reason they would incur heavier losses by throwing more people into the grinder constantly against defending forces.

It's worth holding it just for that reason alone, that Russia is willing to waste their forces to secure a mostly symbolic victory there. Of course Ukraine is suffering losses as well, but unfortunately that's just how war is.

TL;DR: Of course Ukraine is bleeding in Bakhmut too, but not nearly as much as Russia. And just for that reason alone Ukraine has no reason to retreat, because they'll have to have this fight again on another defensive line later anyway, so as long as K/D/A ratio is in their favor, they can stay and grind there. It's strategically sound.
Russia isn't going to stop advancing either way, so fight them where they're most reckless.
 
Pro Ukr map DeepThroatMaps changed their icons from piggies and potatoemen to boring windows icons and squares :(
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But the nation didn't implode and wasn't conquered.
Also its Paraguay. 70% of the population was like 10,000 people.
Paraguay didn't implode? Wasn't conquered? Are you on crack? It was utterly destroyed, and remained a total basket case for decades. Its government was overthrown and it was occupied by its enemies for six years, not to mention that it lost large chunks of territory forever. And 10 000 deaths? Try 300 000. Both sides included, the war had casualties in the same tier as the US Civil War and Franco-Prussian War. And that's in absolute numbers. In relative numbers, it was one of the deadliest wars in history.

Look man, nobody cares if you get your 19th century South American history all fucked up on a New Zealand agricultural forum. It doesn't matter. Just roll with it. You don't need to double down.
 
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Paraguay didn't implode? Wasn't conquered? Are you on crack? It was utterly destroyed, and remained a total basket case for decades. Its government was overthrown and it was occupied by its enemies for six years, not to mention that it lost large chunks of territory forever. And 10 000 deaths? Try 300 000. Both sides included, the war had casualties in the same tier as the US Civil War and Franco-Prussian War. And that's in absolute numbers. In relative numbers, it was one of the deadliest wars in history.

Look man, nobody cares if you get your 19th century South American history all fucked up on a New Zealand agricultural forum. It doesn't matter. Just roll with it. You don't need to double down.
He's also forgetting that Brazil was the third power to purchase a dreadnought battleship. Granted they had to buy it from the UK's yards due to a lack of native industry but even so they kicked off a dreadnought race that saw Argentina buy two dreadnoughts of their own from the USA.
 
I mean, he's not entirely wrong. The term Russia comes from when Peter the Great was declared Tsar of all the Rus (Or Tsar of all the Russias depending on translation). Plural, which implied there were more then one, which there were. Those fucking Swedes got around among the local Slavs in the area up and down the various rivers. Moscow has spend the last 300 years since building up this national mythology of all Russian Speakers somehow being a common fraternal nation (under Moscow of course).

Its about as silly as if Washington DC declared all English speaking countries to be naturally a part of the USA. I am sure Canada, Australia and UK would object pretty strongly to that notion.
 
Sort of. The NVA-proper got whupped in every engagement with US troops, only the US's continued refusal to send ground troops past the UN-mandated ceasefire line saved North Vietnam from getting curbed.
That versus Ukraine's conventional forces are actually holding ground, and their 'lightning push' produced real gains they've maintained.
I disagree with that, that border was internationally recognized as being that of North Vietnam. The US pushed the envelope of what Russia and China would accept when they started their bombing of the North. If they had sent troops Russia and China would have intervened, as they said they would (and as China did in Korea).

If you read Max Hastings book 'Vietnam', it makes clear it was that the US completely misunderstood what was happening diplomatically. They assumed North Vietnam was a Russian proxy, in actuality the Russian government was begging the North to make a deal, and the Vietnamese were able to exert enormous pressure on the Soviets (and to a lesser extent the Chinese who the Vietnamese despised) to do what they wanted.

What people forget about the USSR was that there were a lot of people within the communist party that actually believed the bullshit, as far as they were concerned Ho Chi Minh (who wasn't even making decisions anymore) was a revolutionary hero in the vein of Lenin and supporting the 'revolution' was the No 1 priority for communists everywhere despite. So for example when the Soviets deployed a new weapon system, there were immediate and very vocal demands for it to be supplied to the Vietnamese.

If the US invaded North Vietnam, and Brezhnev didn't immediately order a military response, he'd have been gone in hours.

All those US Carriers on Yankee Station, they wouldn't have been there long. Thailand and the Philippines would have noped out of a conflict very quickly so the US would have been stuck trying to fight off entire Chinese and NVA divisions, with Russian Air and Naval support.

Ultimately the South Vietnamese government failed, the war was decided when the US orchestrated Ngo Dinh Diem's murder, and replaced him with a talentless hack.
 
Had a call from my brother in Ukraine, it was pretty nice. Showed me his kit, from modified AK-74 to RPG-18 and American M67 grenades, Chinese(?) plate carrier with ceramic plates and some kind of utility belt that would give Batman utility belt envy. At least 3 tourniquets per person, pimpin' first aid kit. He apparently paints guns as a hobby now, dude always had an artistic streak. Gave me a sort of whiplash, considering the context. Said he earned enough money by now to buy a house for his kids, which is nice.
Told me stories about feeding stray animals, keeping cats to deal with rats and such. Like how one cat caught a rodent, played with it for an hour, ate half of it and dragged what remained to one of their beds, pretty funny. Or how one particularly smelly dog hang out with them for two months, surviving six months in the warzone prior. About his wife and kids freezing in the winter because of infrastructure bombings, and how they dealt with that.
How Orlans are periodically flying above and other drone fuckery. At some point in the call mortar rounds started exploding somewhere, which is apparently normal - there's a constant back and forth. Talked about all kinds of stuff, can't tell you everything of course, and much of it is irrelevant.

They're well equipped, they're well fed, they're paid for the risk. Their moral is high, they understand what's at stake, and they aren't in the mood to give up nor forgive.
 
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