The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

The population of New Orleans dropped significantly after Katrina, does that mean millions of people died in the hurricane? They must have.

Nope here's the evidence

 

[ranting patriarch]

Except there's no evidence of this, they would have no reason to (USSR was an authoritarian state and they had full internal control), and the 1937 census, as well as other statistics, show massive population deficit in the Ukraine as well as other areas.

But my critique of the revisionist narrative is not based on population censuses, but the total lack of evidence for the resettlement and internment of millions of Jews that the Germans (according to their own documents) removed from their territories. mrolonzo may say this critique was thoroughly addressed by [list of posters on some Codoh thread] but that doesn't mean it was. Even the most respected revisionist authors have punted on this question.

Of course there is no evidence for their resettlement, that is because when Jews move they change their names, in this instance, they became Russians, probably even to the extent of usurping the names & identities of Russians that recently died in the famines.

The less believable claim is that they all died. Where are the bodies? 2.5 million bodies have been found in 25,000 mass graves dating to the Pol Pot regime. If you're going to claim that all of the bodies were burned...how many millions of trees were cut down to do that? Where are the cleared out forests? We already know the burning method is a hoax because the eye-witnesses claim you can pre-heat an oven to 800*C, dump a bathtub worth of water into it...and the temperature will stay 800*C! The exterminationist narrative defies physics. That is much worse than "mabye these jews changed their names". Something we know is their tradition. Something we currently see happening to scale with illegal central american immigration into the USA. What do you do as an illegal immigrant? buy the identity papers of a recently deceased citizen and consequently make your immigration difficult to track. 100 years from now clownstorians like yourself will say all the honduran illegal immigrants were killed in border control camps.

 

[Chugger]

Of course there is no evidence for their resettlement, that is because when Jews move they change their names, in this instance, they became Russians, probably even to the extent of usurping the names & identities of Russians that recently died in the famines.

This is pure speculation, and something any historian worth their salt would have a good laugh at. Mass events generate loads of evidence from different sources, particularly in the modern era, even during war and in areas governed by repressive regimes

eg the abundant evidence for a much much smaller amount of Jews being resettled in Romanian occupied USSR (100,00). Earlier I linked to a folder showing hundreds of government documents concerning their resettlement there, as well as posting detailed population statistics and censuses taken in this area. Resettlement is doubly corroborated by witness testimony, because people tend to talk about what happened to them. Around page 80 the poster Rapechu (the most diligent revisionist I have encountered here who by page 85 was not really a revisionist anymore) inquired about a camp called Anieniv based on a testimony he found. It turns out this camp was so small no population figure was even given for it, though it showed up in Romanian documents. And the history of larger settlements like Shargorod which housed 5000 people (still tiny compared to the dissolved ghettos in Poland eg Warsaw which had 400k) can be reconstructed in great detail through witness testimony, letters, and diaries.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...ng_the_holocaust_in_romanian_transnistria.pdf

Orthodox history's answer for why Jews survived there is that the Romanians were not nearly as anti semitic as the Nazis and rejected full blown genocide, something common to most of Germany's allies. Hungary for example did not comply with German urging for mass deportations, this only happened after their country was occupied by the Nazis in 1944 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Margarethe

 

[ranting patriarch]

This is pure speculation, and something any historian worth their salt would have a good laugh at. Mass events generate loads of evidence from different sources, particularly in the modern era, even during war and in areas governed by repressive regimes

Yes it is speculative and that's all we can do for the transit of a hypothetical population that possibly didn't even exist in the first place and are known for their chameleon nature (Mabye Himmler cooked the books on train tickets to make it look like he was doing his job expelling jews, which as Korherr notes, they didn't even know who the jews were). . The exterminationist narratives are more extreme than these speculations of simple government corruption and shapeshifting ghetto jews. You need to prove that Auschwitz received 30 million pounds of wood every month to power the inferno behind krema5.

the perpetual scene behind krema5 according to eyewitnesses

 

[Chugger]

Yes it is speculative and that's all we can do for the transit of a hypothetical population that possibly didn't even exist in the first place and are known for their chameleon nature (Mabye Himmler cooked the books on train tickets to make it look like he was doing his job expelling jews, which as Korherr notes, they didn't even know who the jews were).

Yep, maybe the Korherr report and numerous censuses (taken of the GG Jewish population + individual ghettos) were all 'cooked' by the Germans. Maybe the speeches given by figures like Hans Frank (the Governor of Poland) in which large amounts of Jews are noted were deceitful as well

But there's no evidence of this and no rationale provided for why the Nazis would consistently lie to themselves for years. All you can do is offer unfounded speculation.

The exterminationist narratives are more extreme than these speculations of simple government corruption and shapeshifting ghetto jews.

Your invocation here is probably less meaningful than me saying 'an advanced industrial nation capable of launching rockets into space could figure out the logistics of mass body destruction' and leaving it that.

However anti-denialist literature has devoted hundreds of thousands of words to explaining this in detail (and even I've spent a lot of time on it in this thread) whereas the best revisionists can do is deflect away from the massive problems with their own narrative.

I should note that when revisionists actually try to engage on this topic, they don't stay revisionist for long (see example of Rapechu in this thread)

 

[SneedYstwyth]

Can you support the claim that the 5-6 million figure currently espoused is a fabrication?

Didn't happen, simple as

 

[Bonesjones]

But there's no evidence of this and no rationale provided for why the Nazis would consistently lie to themselves for years. All you can do is offer unfounded speculation.

Why would they use code words to hide the holocaust in internal memos? Oh because your theory needs it to work. Funny how you project.

Your invocation here is probably less meaningful than me saying 'an advanced industrial nation capable of launching rockets into space could figure out the logistics of mass body destruction' and leaving it that.

If the Nazis wanted all the jews dead they could have killed them all in minutes using their stockpiles of nerve gas, days by denying water, weeks by denying food. They didn't use any of these methods, so you'll have to explain why.

However anti-denialist literature has devoted hundreds of thousands of words to explaining this in detail (and even I've spent a lot of time on it in this thread) whereas the best revisionists can do is deflect away from the massive problems with their own narrative.

Hundreds of thousands of words, not one moment of finding and cataloging mass graves, only hindering their search. Funny how actions show true motivation.

 

[Chugger]

Bonesjones, I should point out that your post is another deflection and you are unable or unwilling to answer criticism regarding the narrative you believe in. Not so with me. Because I've spent so much time answering these questions or similar ones I'll keep it short. Use the search function

Why would they use code words to hide the holocaust in internal memos? Oh because your theory needs it to work. Funny how you project.

Coded language was used for reasons of euphemism + internal secrecy, same reasons Soviets described people executed during the great purge ('imprisoned without rights of correspondence') and Japanese called their chemical weapons program Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department .

I should also add that Nazi use of code words is not controversial, even for Holocaust deniers. you should ask Mattogno this same question: https://twitter.com/rickshawhaw/status/1430469745489453057

Coded language was also used by the Nazis in their t4 program, eg euthanized patients are noted as having been "disinfected"

I'm just repeating myself though, I've had this exact discussion with mrolonzo and Rapechu already, you forgot apparently

If the Nazis wanted all the jews dead they could have killed them all in minutes using their stockpiles of nerve gas, days by denying water, weeks by denying food. They didn't use any of these methods, so you'll have to explain why.

killing with gas faster, HCN just as deadly as Sarin if you use enough of it, and it was readily available. Carbon monoxide was a more 'humane' choice, and used extensively in the t4 program, whose staff was later assigned to Action Reinhard.

Hundreds of thousands of words, not one moment of finding and cataloging mass graves, only hindering their search.

Wrong they found and spent months cataloging mass graves at extermination sites (I've referenced Belzec, Sobibor, and Chelmno here). You just think they're lying.

Anyway the findings of archeologists have little to do with the statement that 30 million pounds of wood per month would be necessary to destroy the bodies burned in the trenches at Auschwitz. For that we need to do corpse math, though the entire question is based on a supposition that wood was the only combustant, when witness evidence contradicts this

 

[ranting patriarch]

Yep, maybe the Korherr report and numerous censuses (taken of the GG Jewish population + individual ghettos) were all 'cooked' by the Germans. Maybe the speeches given by figures like Hans Frank (the Governor of Poland) in which large amounts of Jews are noted were deceitful as well

View attachment 4767929

But there's no evidence of this and no rationale provided for why the Nazis would consistently lie to themselves for years. All you can do is offer unfounded speculation.


Your invocation here is probably less meaningful than me saying 'an advanced industrial nation capable of launching rockets into space could figure out the logistics of mass body destruction' and leaving it that.

However anti-denialist literature has devoted hundreds of thousands of words to explaining this in detail (and even I've spent a lot of time on it in this thread) whereas the best revisionists can do is deflect away from the massive problems with their own narrative.

I should note that when revisionists actually try to engage on this topic, they don't stay revisionist for long (see example of Rapechu in this thread)

Korherr complained about the logistics of identifying who was jewish for mass deportation. Did they conduct 6 million phrenology exams? They went on self-report, scouts honor system. It's not believable that they found millions of jews to volunteer their identity for deportation. What is believable is that when the Nazi's took over Warsaw, the Jews called themselves Polish. So where did the Jews of Warsaw go? Looks like they ended up in Dulag 121 along with the real Poles they were mimicking.

Your invocation here is probably less meaningful than me saying 'an advanced industrial nation capable of launching rockets into space could figure out the logistics of mass body destruction' and leaving it that.

We got a meme for this

Look 800*C burns hydrated biomaterial at a certain rate per hour and a certain amount of fuel required. There are little things you can do here and there to improve that efficiency by a few percents, but the holocaust historians are claiming exponentially faster burn rates and fractional fuel costs. It's ridiculous. A modern day high-tech livestock incinerator peaks performance at 150lbs/hour, it takes 10-20 hours to cremate a 1,500lbs mid-sized cow.

Biosecure Cow Cremator - J&D Manufacturing

jdmfg.com

The holocaust historians claim that their antique nazi ovens could burn an equivalent 1,500lbs mass in 1 hour. They are retarded. Nothing exemplifies just how wrong they are better than this. When you realize that this is their baseline of incorrectness, everything else they claim about WW2 is similarly suspect. If the holocaust historians claim 3 million jews were deported from Poland, it would be more of a miracle that they were actually correct about something than this feat of finding 3 million jews pretending to be gentiles.

 

[ranting patriarch]

Anyway the findings of archeologists have little to do with the statement that 30 million pounds of wood per month would be necessary to destroy the bodies burned in the trenches at Auschwitz. For that we need to do corpse math, though the entire question is based on a supposition that wood was the only combustant, when witness evidence contradicts this

You need a 5:1 mass ratio to cremate a body with a funeral pyre, and that's with throwing gas on the fire. So for every 100lbs corpse, you need 500lbs of wood. 2000 outdoor burns per day? That's 1 million lbs of wood/day. 30 million lbs/month. This is the equivalent of running an uncontrolled forest fire. That stock image I used is not an exaggeration.

Think about it like this. If NASA claimed the astronauts didn't need oxygen on the moon -- That would debunk the moonlanding. All the footage and documentation wouldn't amount to shit if the entire premise was hinged on something as bogus as breathing unassisted in an oxygen free environment. That's what the holocaust is. The whole thing is premised on the idea that human corpses burn with the same speed and ease as dry crumpled newspaper. The soviet think-tank that invented the holocaust practically tested their theory by timing human equivalent weights of burning newspaper.

 

[Bonesjones]

Bonesjones, I should point out that your post is another deflection and you are unable or unwilling to answer criticism regarding the narrative you believe in. Not so with me. Because I've spent so much time answering these questions or similar ones I'll keep it short. Use the search function

I've deflected nothing, you just don't like my answers and pretend they never exist over and over and over again. You read from a script, retard.

Coded language was used for reasons of euphemism + internal secrecy, same reasons Soviets described people executed during the great purge ('imprisoned without rights of correspondence') and Japanese called their chemical weapons program Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department .

Coded language can't hide millions of dead people, which is why everything you do is a failure.

Coded language was also used by the Nazis in their t4 program, eg euthanized patients are noted as having been "disinfected"

I'm just repeating myself though, I've had this exact discussion with mrolonzo and Rapechu already, you forgot apparently

Or post war they invented new euphemisms for things to punish. Which we also went over, a million times. Weird how you keep pretending to not have these repeated conversations.

Carbon monoxide was a more 'humane' choice, and used extensively in the t4 program, whose staff was later assigned to Action Reinhard.

So they knew Carbon Monoxide was a safe effective way of killing people and decided to use delousing equipment instead? Another self own. You can't piecemeal a genocide when it's supposed to be ordered top to bottom, but you this and keep to your script.

Wrong they found and spent months cataloging mass graves at extermination sites (I've referenced Belzec, Sobibor, and Chelmno here). You just think they're lying.

Washing a fork and saying you did the dishes is technically true but it still makes you a liar. Which we've proved you and they have done repeatedly.

Anyway the findings of archeologists have little to do with the statement that 30 million pounds of wood per month would be necessary to destroy the bodies burned in the trenches at Auschwitz. For that we need to do corpse math, though the entire question is based on a supposition that wood was the only combustant, when witness evidence contradicts this

Hey look you walk into another trap, the Nazis didn't have other combustible materials to use, regardless of eyewitness testimony. We can even look at the photographs taken from the air to see they didn't have any required stockpiles to run any sort of industrial cremation, so again you lose. All you do is lose in old and boring ways and pretend they never happened. You've never done an ounce of research on your own that doesn't involve regurgitating holocaust controversy blog posts. It's all really embarrassing for you.

 

[Chugger]

Korherr complained about the logistics of identifying who was jewish for mass deportation. Did they conduct 6 million phrenology exams? They went on self-report, scouts honor system. It's not believable that they found millions of jews to volunteer their identity for deportation. What is believable is that when the Nazi's took over Warsaw, the Jews called themselves Polish. So where did the Jews of Warsaw go?

It seems you don't know the history well. The Jews of Warsaw went into the Warsaw ghetto along with a ton of other Jews (460k peak population). The rest of the Polish Jews were put in other ghettos, some also enormous, for which detailed population statistics exist. By 1943 these ghettos were largely dissolved and the new Jewish population of Poland was reported to be 200k total, almost all held in labor camps or ghettos converted into such. If you're saying most of the 'vanished' Jews weren't really Jews that's stupid (and I haven't heard this argument made by any revisionist) but ultimately doesn't change much for me. I wouldn't assign more moral value to a Jewish life than someone falsely accused of being Jewish.

I've deflected nothing

In that case let's talk about the chief problem with your narrative, that there is no evidence of any Jews being resettled and maintained in German occupied USSR, and most revisionists think millions were. I think all narratives should be given scrutiny, and 99% of the scrutiny in this thread has been on the orthodox narrative, not the revisionist one.

 

[ranting patriarch]

It seems you don't know the history well. The Jews of Warsaw went into the Warsaw ghetto along with a ton of other Jews (460k peak population). The rest of the Polish Jews were put in other ghettos, some also enormous, for which detailed population statistics exist. By 1943 these ghettos were largely dissolved and the new Jewish population of Poland was reported to be 200k total, almost all held in labor camps or ghettos converted into such. If you're saying most of the 'vanished' Jews weren't really Jews that's stupid (and I haven't heard this argument made by any revisionist) but ultimately doesn't change much for me. I wouldn't assign more moral value to a Jewish life than someone falsely accused of being Jewish.


In that case let's talk about the chief problem with your narrative, that there is no evidence of any Jews being resettled and maintained in German occupied USSR, and most revisionists think millions were. I think all narratives should be given scrutiny, and 99% of the scrutiny in this thread has been on the orthodox narrative, not the revisionist one.

We don't even know for certain if there was such a thing as "warsaw ghetto". The people that wrote this history believed water is inconsequential to fire. That you could stack 4 bodies in an oven and it would be done just as fast as 1. They are like flat-earthers. What's passing for orthodox history is no better than the historicity of Jesus Christ. Mabye they got a couple details right, but that isn't the point. Mabye you're not directly familiar with the holocaust historians take on jews burning like paper? Here they are explaining it in great detail

Auschwitz-Birkenau Crematoria: Civilian Ovens Comparison - Holocaust Denial on Trial

It takes hours to burn one body in a civilian crematorium. How could the ovens at Auschwitz-Birkenau cremate nearly 900,000 victims in a two-year period? At Auschwitz-Birkenau, the ovens operated continuously, burning multiple bodies at once. We cannot compare that to the cremation process in...

www.hdot.org

It is unmistakable. These people actually believe throwing water on fire helps it burn. It would be more believable if you claimed 6 million jews were abducted by aliens or nazi flying saucers. At least that couldn't be easily disproven.

 

[Chugger]

We don't even know for certain if there was such a thing as "warsaw ghetto".

Like literally it didn't exist? All the evidence (German government documents, photos and film, diaries, letters, witness testimony from Germans/Jews/Poles) is fabricated? For the love of god why?

 

[Bonesjones]

In that case let's talk about the chief problem with your narrative, that there is no evidence of any Jews being resettled and maintained in German occupied USSR, and most revisionists think millions were. I think all narratives should be given scrutiny, and 99% of the scrutiny in this thread has been on the orthodox narrative, not the revisionist one.

There is no problem when the chief architect of the Holocaust was also the only ones with control of the region for 50 years. They had the means and will to make up anything they wanted to happen in the territory they controlled, which they did. You keep suggesting that they didn't destroy exonerating evidence because ???. We know that the Soviets even used Nazi camps for their own purposes post war. Which again throws the whole idea into disarray, since you now have to reexamine everything to make sure it's not just a case of the Soviets blaming their own mass murders on the Nazis like they already did before wars end.

Crazy how they blame the Nazis for mass murders they committed, using gas vans that they used, amongst all sorts of every other conceivable crime against humanity. Funny how no one talks about the intentional starvation of German troops post war.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

@ranting patriarch

The interesting bit about that link and example is that you have these seperate testimonies about the cremation process.

But even in these brief testimonies of a couple of lines each, they don't even match.

First he says sometimes it even went up to 5-6 bodies at once. The next he says they fitted up to 8 at once.

Then the next testimony by another, he says they sometimes fitted up to 3 at once in.

 

[ranting patriarch]

@ranting patriarch

The interesting bit about that link and example is that you have these seperate testimonies about the cremation process.

But even in these brief testimonies of a couple of lines each, they don't even match.

First he says sometimes it even went up to 5-6 bodies at once. The next he says they fitted up to 8 at once.

Then the next testimony by another, he says they sometimes fitted up to 3 at once in.

Yes they are all lying because they are products of a soviet propaganda think-tank that believed humans burn like paper. The soviet deep-state intellectuals were urbanized proletariat products of leninism: affirmative action diversity hires with no pyrotechnics experience to merit authoring a believable story. Nonetheless, the soviets had a coordinated effort to frame the nazis for genocide...That is why as chugger states

Like literally it didn't exist? All the evidence (German government documents, photos and film, diaries, letters, witness testimony from Germans/Jews/Poles) is fabricated? For the love of god why?

Recall my moon landing analogy. If the moonlanding was definitively debunked, then the thousands of flight logs are bullshit. The documents are either 1. wrong 2. fake 3. misinterpreted 4. edited after the fact or 5. selectively curated devoid of context. Whether you think any single document is any or all or none of those is an exercise in hoax autopsy. The overarching story is wrong, so now we're just dissecting whether Saint Matthew actually saw Jesus at all despite the claim of walking on water. The warsaw ghetto is an organ in the hoax anatomy and claims about it are likely polluted by the cancer of lying which metastasized throughout the entire body.

 

[Chugger]

They had the means and will to make up anything they wanted to happen in the territory they controlled, which they did.

Maybe we can start here. After the war USSR controlled the whole of Eastern Europe, including Poland and East Germany. Yet no German documents were presented showing the Nazis were responsible for Katyn (the official Soviet position). No German witnesses at Nuremberg gave testimony supporting the Soviet position either.

So clearly they did not have "the will" to fabricate documents or coerce German witnesses in regards to this war crime.

Lastly, numerous Soviet documents were discovered once the archives were opened indicating their responsibility at Katyn, so they either didn't have the will or the means to destroy all these. Furthermore after the war Polish witnesses surfaced who affirmed Soviet guilt, so they were not able to permanently suppress these witnesses (presumably by killing them).

How do you explain this, given your above statement? They completely failed to cover up an event much smaller in scale than the resettlement and housing of millions of people for many months.

You keep suggesting that they didn't destroy exonerating evidence because ???

They would have had to destroy probably tens or hundreds of thousands of documents, many of which would have been discovered by the Americans/British, who also found millions of Nazi documents. In addition they would have been counting on total suppression of the probably millions of German/Slav/Jew witnesses to resettlement, something which probably would have required killing these many millions of people, which there is no evidence of, no bodies, no witness statements, no documents.

We can look at other crimes the Soviets have been accused of, eg the execution of hundreds of thousands of people in the great purge. Here too, they didn't come close to destroying all the evidence or suppressing the witnesses.

There seems to be no precedent for what you are alleging happened, and all examples point towards the opposite. If it was easy, or even doable, they would have done it. It's not a question of morality but feasibility.

Recall my moon landing analogy.

Recall the above, where the Soviets failed to cover up their own relatively small scale atrocities. Maybe they did this to as a 'fake out' to make people think they were really bad at destroying evidence and suppressing witnesses.

You also didn't explain why they would have invented the ghettos in the first place. Clearly with their powers of reality manipulation they just could have had all those Jews going straight to the gas chambers as you believed previously, no intermediary step needed. Your reality bending Soviets were just having a laugh I guess.

 

[ranting patriarch]

Recall the above, where the Soviets failed to cover up their own relatively small scale atrocities. Maybe they did this to as a 'fake out' to make people think they were really bad at destroying evidence and suppressing witnesses.

You also didn't explain why they would have invented the ghettos in the first place. Clearly with their powers of reality manipulation they just could have had all those Jews going straight to the gas chambers as you believed previously, no intermediary step needed. Your reality bending Soviets were just having a laugh I guess.

The Soviet failed to suppress all of the witnesses. Eric Hunt dug through the shoah foundation archives and found people describing Auschwitz as like a YMCA day camp. Yoga and pottery classes. (their testimonies are banned from youtube -- youtube is better at suppressing WW2 truth than the soviet)

Jews tell the truth about the Holocaust

Revisionism

odysee.com

My problem with accepting the existence of ghettos at face value stems from the first page of the Korherr Report.

Korherr complains that 1. they didn't know who the jews were. 2. they had no definition of what a jew is. 3. they had no practical way to figure it out in the field.

When faced with institutional anti-semitism, the jews change their names and identities. In light of Korherr's revelations, it is not believable that the nazis rounded up 400,000 jews to put in a ghetto. It is more plausible that Himmler engineered a fake document trail to reinforce belief that he was succeeding with this monumental task of unmasking every jew.

So we have systemic nazi lying + systemic soviet lying, and the powers of two lying corrupt governments combine to unveil...

"Captain pouring 40 gallons of water on fire accelerates the burn!"

This endpoint is 100% wrong, and if your outcome is wrong, the rest of the formula ain't much better.

 

[mrolonzo]

It seems you don't know the history well. The Jews of Warsaw went into the Warsaw ghetto along with a ton of other Jews (460k peak population). The rest of the Polish Jews were put in other ghettos, some also enormous, for which detailed population statistics exist. By 1943 these ghettos were largely dissolved and the new Jewish population of Poland was reported to be 200k total, almost all held in labor camps or ghettos converted into such. If you're saying most of the 'vanished' Jews weren't really Jews that's stupid (and I haven't heard this argument made by any revisionist) but ultimately doesn't change much for me. I wouldn't assign more moral value to a Jewish life than someone falsely accused of being Jewish.


In that case let's talk about the chief problem with your narrative, that there is no evidence of any Jews being resettled and maintained in German occupied USSR, and most revisionists think millions were. I think all narratives should be given scrutiny, and 99% of the scrutiny in this thread has been on the orthodox narrative, not the revisionist one.

1/ Rapechu already showed you Jews arriving in ghettos in the east and where the ghettos were broken up non working Jews are sent elsewhere to other camps.

2/ I showed you the statistics problem.

3/ I showed you the demographic problem.

4/ I showed you the real attitude of the SS to their charges.

5/ I showed you the technical problems with the allegation of mass murder.

6/ Moreover you assert that we must scrutinise revisionists while not even accepting the revisionist history about the holocaust record. In other words, ignore what revisionists point out and instead focus on what revisionists may or may not lack in explaining. How do you justify this?