The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[The Tall Man]

The problem I see if everyone getting into the details. When I, who doesn't know fuck all about the holocaust, does a casual bit of research at the surface level and discover Typhus was prevalent, and could certainly explain the majority of deaths. This the supposed Holocaust Documentaries leave out. Which must mean it's an inconvenient fact to a narrative.

Then I was doing research seperately on the Rothschild family and found they were sending 500,000 francs per year to the Israeli lobby since 1890. Which I would guess after looking a bit online to be something like $10,000,000 per year adjusted for inflation.

The allies blames all of WW2 on the axis with a focus on Germany. A corner stone of their propaganda was that Germany attacked Poland out of the blue and started the whole conflict and freeing Poland was paramount. But post war Poland was left to suffer under soviet occupation and no attempt was made to help them. It took some time for the allies to exchange the reason for the war and blame it on Germanies idea about eugenics (an ideology from Britain that became popular in the US and was more prevalent in the US during the war. Fun fact one of the main patrons of eugenics in the US was Rockefeller and the Rothschilds) and their racism (laughable considering how progressive Germans were even back than compared to Americans and Bongs).

TL;DR pre and during war the media slogan was "we need to save poor Poland"
after the war it was "we had to save the poor Jews from extermination, if we hadn't intervened the Nazis would have killed everyone but their super pure Aryan soldiers"

It reminds me of the Iraq war.
Pre war "Saddam has weapons of mass destructions and is willing to use them and he has secret rape dungeons"
They didn't find that shit and all the "evidence" they had for that pre war, were from "trusted sources".
Post war "we couldn't stand back and watch the Kurds suffer and we had to improve women's rights in the middle east"

 

[The Tall Man]

btw MKULTRA was widely reported on even before the 1977 FOIA discovery. The US government failed miserably in trying to cover up a relatively tiny operation

View attachment 4517118

Lmao, media hasn't changed one bit. This is like now media starts talking about the lab leak theory (while downplaying US involvement in the Wuhan lab).

If things get brought up too often by independent journalists and people are starting to talk too much about it, then you get the pitty realeas of some information. This information often leads you to a certain point and often ignores the more serious parts.

What did the media release about MK-Ultra, they try to make it out to be some wacky experiments by the CIA with hypnosis and stuff.
What about the rape and torture and killing of US-Citizens including children? You might find something about that if you read some in depth book about the subject but the media never touches it despite how much engagement it would gather from the public.

Look what the media did with Epstein, they avoided touching that until the story was too big to ignore online and then they made it look like Epstein was some eccentric billionaire who happened to be a pedo. They ignored that all his money and assets were given to him by Wexner and that he had connections to 2 Israeli PMs and they ignore Ghislaine Maxwell forever who is the daughter of Robert Maxwell and Israeli Agent. They ignore his white collar crimes, they don't talk about any of the substantive or important stuff.

Since I saw it in this thread Abu Ghraib, also got too much attention so it had to be covered. Did they mention the popping of eardrums the dry-boarding or the rape of the children of inmates by that got recoded and played back to the parent on repeat?
No, the whole discussion boiled down to one deflecting question "is water-boarding torture?"

Do you think the Nr.1 land of "marketing and PR" aka propaganda doesn't know and employ Goebbels most important rule for propaganda, propaganda has to be centrally controlled?

What makes the Holoconspiracy especially unlikely to me is it would require coordinated effort between 3 different governments (US/West German/Soviet) for decades + suppression of many hundreds of thousands of people (if you think most of the deported Jews survived)

First if you believe it comes with less consequences for a Jew to go against the narrative than let me introduce you to David Cole, who ended up faking his own death to escape the persecution including getting beaten up and nearly killed.

Germany will always do what the US tells them to they aren't a sovereign state since WW2, they are a US puppet.
Now with US and the Soviets the story is a bit more involved. A good place to start is the Esalen Institute, at it's surface it's a silly little hippy resort for rich and influential people, funded by the usual US oligarchs. The most interesting thing was that the Esalon Institute was somehow able to freely bring in Russians to the US and export Americans to Russia while other institutions were not.
To cut the story short the connection between Jewish oligarchs in the USSR and Jewish oligarchs in the US were completely unhindered during the cold war.
So the only elements that could cooperate unhindered in the US and the USSR were the Jewish oligarchs.

 

[mrolonzo]

It should be noted here that Chugger has already told Bonesjones that one need not expect to have physical evidence of mass murder while also insisting here that one would expect physical evidence of resettlement. Think about that.

 

[ranting patriarch]

It should be noted here that Chugger has already told Bonesjones that one need not expect to have physical evidence of mass murder while also insisting here that one would expect physical evidence of resettlement. Think about that.

The orthodox line is that if you heat an oven to 800*C, pour in a bathtub worth of water (40 gallons : 4 bodies) over the course of 25 minutes, the temperature will have stayed 800*C the whole time.

These people believe that water is combustible. It is beyond the pale. We're meeting them half way by speculating that the documents which led them to this deranged conclusion are compromised in some way or another. It is important to emphasize that it is the revisionist making concessions for the exterminationist delusions, not the other way around.

 

[Chugger]

Eric Hunt dug through the shoah foundation archives and found people describing Auschwitz as like a YMCA day camp.

After looking into the resettlement issue, Eric Hunt abandoned Holocaust denial/revisionism completely. He describes his journey here

The End of the Line

For over a decade I have devoted a great deal of my life to investigating what is known as "The Holocaust." I've endured 18 months imprisonment, overwhelming hardships, and live life as an outcast due to my activism as a Holocaust skeptic. All along, I claimed I was looking for the truth and...

web.archive.org

suffice to say, the resettled Jews were supposed to have been sent east into occupied USSR, and Auschwitz was a labor camp near the Czech/Poland border

My problem with accepting the existence of ghettos at face value stems from the first page of the Korherr Report.

Korherr says the number of Jews is if anything much greater (double?!) than German estimates, your entire theory is based around there being less Jews

So we have systemic nazi lying

There's no evidence that Korherr's version of the report was fraudulent in any way, the only thing in question is Himmler's addition: change the Jews were "given sonderbehandlung" to "transported to the Russian East"

 

[Chugger]

1/ Rapechu already showed you Jews arriving in ghettos in the east and where the ghettos were broken up non working Jews are sent elsewhere to other camps.

2/ I showed you the statistics problem.

3/ I showed you the demographic problem.

4/ I showed you the real attitude of the SS to their charges.

5/ I showed you the technical problems with the allegation of mass murder.

6/ Moreover you assert that we must scrutinise revisionists while not even accepting the revisionist history about the holocaust record. In other words, ignore what revisionists point out and instead focus on what revisionists may or may not lack in explaining. How do you justify this?

Actually I've addressed all these things and I don't think there are any problems - eg in Rapechu's last post before he disappeared forever, he found non-working Jews were sent to Stutthof but I pointed out this was just a stop along the way to Auschwitz. There's no evidence of non-working Jews being sent anywhere but to the very few camps that have been identified as extermination centers.

But you haven't addressed this, I've asked twice

It should be noted here that Chugger has already told Bonesjones that one need not expect to have physical evidence of mass murder while also insisting here that one would expect physical evidence of resettlement. Think about that.

I don't think I have ever said this. More physical evidence would be generated by mass murder on this scale, and it has been presented, you just think the archeologists are lying and haven't provided sufficient proof.

These people believe that water is combustible.

Who believes this lol? Quote directly. When you don't do this it's easier for you to construct a false reality where Holocaust 'promoters' are idiots.

 

[ranting patriarch]

After looking into the resettlement issue, Eric Hunt abandoned Holocaust denial/revisionism completely. He describes his journey here

The End of the Line

For over a decade I have devoted a great deal of my life to investigating what is known as "The Holocaust." I've endured 18 months imprisonment, overwhelming hardships, and live life as an outcast due to my activism as a Holocaust skeptic. All along, I claimed I was looking for the truth and...

web.archive.org

suffice to say, the resettled Jews were supposed to have been sent east into occupied USSR, and Auschwitz was a labor camp near the Czech/Poland border


Korherr says the number of Jews is if anything much greater (double?!) than German estimates, your entire theory is based around there being less Jews


There's no evidence that Korherr's version of the report was fraudulent in any way, the only thing in question is Himmler's addition: change the Jews were "given sonderbehandlung" to "transported to the Russian East"

Hunt got into legal trouble and dropped public revisionism to evade a federal hate crime charge. While resettlement proof is an obvious problem in one lens, in another it isn't because Korherr was furnished train ticket data and train tickets can be faked. If there is absolutely no evidence of resettlement, and the plausibility of burning all of these bodies outdoors is 0, then the train tickets must be faked, and I offered a theoretical motive for Himmler to engineer that.

Who believes this lol? Quote directly. When you don't do this it's easier for you to construct a false reality where Holocaust 'promoters' are idiots.

So here is Sonderkommando Filip Muller:

This technique was called ‘express work,’ a designation thought up by the Kommandoführers and originating from experiments carried out in crematorium 5 in the autumn of 1943. The purpose of these experiments was to find a way of saving coke [coal] . . . Thus the bodies of two Mussulmans were cremated together with those of two children or the bodies of two well-nourished men together with that of an emaciated woman, each load consisting of three, or sometimes, four bodies

We're going to put 4 bodies in this muffle, that's about 40 gallons of water or a bathtub.

We're going to put this bathtub full of water into this oven. How long will it take to evaporate all of the water? Realistically it is going to take 4-5 hours. The holocaust historians are forced to say it will take 25 minutes. That is the speed they need to corroborate the quantity of deaths they claim. Because faulty nazi documents + soviet lies led them to believe x amount of people died, they are forced to inadvertently conclude that water is combustible.

They came to a bogus conclusion because the trail of evidence leading up to it is also bogus.

 

[Chugger]

Hunt got into legal trouble and dropped public revisionism to evade a federal hate crime charge.

No he got out of prison in 2008 https://www.njherald.com/story/news/2008/08/18/man-who-attacked-wiesel-released/4065327007/ and continued being a revisionist and producing popular documentaries for almost a decade after. You're bending reality.

While resettlement proof is an obvious problem in one lens, in another it isn't because Korherr was furnished train ticket data and train tickets can be faked. If there is absolutely no evidence of resettlement, and the plausibility of burning all of these bodies outdoors is 0, then the train tickets must be faked, and I offered a theoretical motive for Himmler to engineer that.

I think what you haven't offered is a theoretical motive for the Germans/Soviets (they were in cahoots?) to make it seem like millions of Jews were housed in many hundreds of ghettos across Eastern Europe, most of which are extensively evidenced in the witness and documentary record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_ghettos_in_German-occupied_Poland

I can't take you seriously bro, sorry, this is 'the end of the line' to borrow Hunt's phrase

 

[ranting patriarch]

I think what you haven't offered is a theoretical motive for the Germans/Soviets (they were in cahoots?) to make it seem like millions of Jews were housed in many hundreds of ghettos across Eastern Europe, most of which are extensively evidenced in the witness and documentary record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_ghettos_in_German-occupied_Poland

No they weren't in cahoots. Himmler was under pressure to remove all the jews but they weren't volunteering their identities so there was motive to forge the numbers that were being deported. If your boss was a meth addict making impossible demands, you would probably string him along likewise.

The soviets framed their enemies for war crimes as a matter of standard practice.Fart machines of death, rollercoasters of doom, electric floors, homicidal gas chambers, all crude soviet propaganda.

Now yes there are all these documents for ghettos and what not. But somehow the totality of these documents led you to believe that 40 gallons of water will evaporate in 25 minutes in an antique nazi oven. So the documents are crap. All of this has to be taken with a grain of salt because it's practically WW2 history according to the Flat Earth Society.

 

[mrolonzo]

Actually I've addressed all these things and I don't think there are any problems - eg in Rapechu's last post before he disappeared forever, he found non-working Jews were sent to Stutthof but I pointed out this was just a stop along the way to Auschwitz. There's no evidence of non-working Jews being sent anywhere but to the very few camps that have been identified as extermination centers.

But you haven't addressed this, I've asked twice

Yes, you pointed that out and we pointed out that Jews weren't gassed or shot at Auschwitz nor at any other camp from a number of angles.

As for what you asked me I told you about Rapechu's comments and all the rest of the various angles also.

I don't think I have ever said this. More physical evidence would be generated by mass murder on this scale, and it has been presented, you just think the archeologists are lying and haven't provided sufficient proof.

In fact we've shown that the archeological data doesn't show mass graves and the methods asserted are also shown to be fraudulent from a number of angles.

Who believes this lol? Quote directly. When you don't do this it's easier for you to construct a false reality where Holocaust 'promoters' are idiots.

Holocaust promoters are shown to be idiots easily. See the already referenced work on Van Pelt.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

I think it's weird that anyone in here is being called a 'holocaust promoter' Any sort of downplaying of the official narrative, or any attempt to try and alter the story of 'Mass gas chambers, with crematoriums right next to them.' along with any sort of change to the official numbers makes you a holocaust denier. Everyone in this thread is a holocaust denier, by dint of not accepting every part of the narrative lol.

 

[mrolonzo]

I think it's weird that anyone in here is being called a 'holocaust promoter' Any sort of downplaying of the official narrative, or any attempt to try and alter the story of 'Mass gas chambers, with crematoriums right next to them.' along with any sort of change to the official numbers makes you a holocaust denier. Everyone in this thread is a holocaust denier, by dint of not accepting every part of the narrative lol.

Chugger is a holocaust promoter in every meaningful sense. He's accepted nothing we say, anything he can't answer, he won't accept, he'll just go quiet.

Except of course when some holocaust denier makes a statement that sounds more like his position he'll of course jump on it and claim to have persuaded someone to 'see reason ' or he'll ignore everything put on this thread and stick to one single talking point. Simply because that's, while ignoring the logical hierarchy of evidence, to him, his only logical recourse.

 

[ranting patriarch]

Chugger is a holocaust promoter in every meaningful sense. He's accepted nothing we say, anything he can't answer, he won't accept, he'll just go quiet.

Except of course when some holocaust denier makes a statement that sounds more like his position he'll of course jump on it and claim to have persuaded someone to 'see reason ' or he'll ignore everything put on this thread and stick to one single talking point. Simply because that's, while ignoring the logical hierarchy of evidence, to him, his only logical recourse.

pseudoscientific thinking is the human condition from birth. it is not a slur on anyones character that they evangelize the holocaust mythology or even get emotionally defensive when wrong. the current application of religion is quite tame and respectable compared to the days they would burn skeptics alive. We should not even complain that the revisionist today is oppressed, yes it is illegal in the EU, but the EU is a giant open-air prison anyway, quality of life inside or outside the building labeled 'jail' can't be delineated, it's not a third world dungeon.

 

[mrolonzo]

pseudoscientific thinking is the human condition from birth. it is not a slur on anyones character that they evangelize the holocaust mythology or even get emotionally defensive when wrong. the current application of religion is quite tame and respectable compared to the days they would burn skeptics alive. We should not even complain that the revisionist today is oppressed, yes it is illegal in the EU, but the EU is a giant open-air prison anyway, quality of life inside or outside the building labeled 'jail' can't be delineated, it's not a third world dungeon.

Indeed a jail need not be of walls and wire. People are jailed in ignorance and fear.

Think of the 34 French history professors who declared in a letter that the holocaust must have happened because it happened. This is the pseudo intellectualism of the holocaust.

You will notice a clear difference in writing style between holocaust and revisionist authors. The former being short on footnotes, replete with flim flam rhetoric and so many events simply assumed. The revisionist is the opposite.

A good example is Chugger. You just mentioned fillip Muller's testimony. Testimony is a type of evidence that Chugger himself thinks is extremely important in this subject. But you'll never be able here to have a discussion about that testimony here with Chugger. Nor about any other testimony from these "extermination " centres. He's not interested really because he knows, as some holocaust promoters have had to admit, that these people are making up stories.

 

[Chugger]

Testimony is a type of evidence that Chugger himself thinks is extremely important in this subject. But you'll never be able here to have a discussion about that testimony here with Chugger. Nor about any other testimony from these "extermination " centres.

Obviously testimony is important and I have had discussions here. Revisionists like to point out contradictions in testimony as if it's something that shouldn't be expected and is indicative of wholesale fabrication of a mass event, like hundreds of thousands of people being killed over months or years at a given site. I posted here about the massive contradictions in testimony regarding the sinking of the titanic https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=902510#p902510

It's you who has failed to answer simple questions https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/post-15360698 instead appealing to unspecified posts from a guy (Rapechu) who came to believe millions of the "resettled" Jews died and shortly after left the forum forever

 

[mrolonzo]

Obviously testimony is important and I have had discussions here. Revisionists like to point out contradictions in testimony as if it's something that shouldn't be expected and is indicative of wholesale fabrication of a mass event, like hundreds of thousands of people being killed over months or years at a given site. I posted here about the massive contradictions in testimony regarding the sinking of the titanic https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=902510#p902510

It's you who has failed to answer simple questions https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/post-15360698 instead appealing to unspecified posts from a guy (Rapechu) who came to believe millions of the "resettled" Jews died and shortly after left the forum forever

Contradictory testimony means generally it's unreliable as fact. See the hierarchy of evidence I gave earlier in the thread specifically related to the holocaust. The holocaust is based mostly on such testimony. Thus the logical conclusion. Our conclusion. Is superior.

Of course you tried to get out of it all by example of the titanic. There is a clear and well precedented method of death here - the Atlantic ocean. But feel free to discuss the relevant technical issues here.

The post in question is I think #1531 on page 77. Certainly rapechu says alot of Jews died in the east for various reasons. So what? No revisionists deny Jews died in the east.

You tried to say 'ok but then they were taken to extermination camps '. The same camps shown not to be extermination camps in this thread. Therefore you're at an impass, you cannot defend these camps as extermination camps - you would have done so long ago against me and its seems you did have a go at this early in the thread but were swiftly rebuffed.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

I think it's completely fair to call @Chugger a holocaust promoter. I've talked about the dishonesty at display quite a bit. The most telling moment above all was when history speaks really put his foot in his mouth in his understanding of natural processes and Chugger defended him that he agreed "if history means X" which was contrary to what he had just said.

Or his constant false portrayal of how his discussion with rapechu went. Irving lost his court case over much smaller mistakes that were argued to be bias, comparably.

But neither am I happy with the genuine holocaust denial in this thread, which is basicly happening here because holocaust denial sites prefer to ban rather than engage, apparently. That's literally why multiple tourists are using this site to have their discussion, which they previously had on another site. I say genuine, because without knowing 100% sure, I'm sure they get things wrong and engage in concealment of what they get wrong. There just isn't much fruit for me to engage in that discussion. Even a mild version of that position is completely taboo. It isn't a position that's used to siphon billions of dollars from one source to another. The influence is completely minimal in misleading new generations.

I'll point it out when I see an obvious point, like I think it was @Bonesjones but it could have been somebody else, who thought the extra machine gun rounds requested for special action could refer to hunting, which is so completely unpractical as to be farcical. Like using fat bodies for extra fuel in cremation, or droning on about the excellent fuel efficiency of cremation, but then start talking about open air pits.

 

[mrolonzo]

I think it's completely fair to call @Chugger a holocaust promoter. I've talked about the dishonesty at display quite a bit. The most telling moment above all was when history speaks really put his foot in his mouth in his understanding of natural processes and Chugger defended him that he agreed "if history means X" which was contrary to what he had just said.

Or his constant false portrayal of how his discussion with rapechu went. Irving lost his court case over much smaller mistakes that were argued to be bias, comparably.

But neither am I happy with the genuine holocaust denial in this thread, which is basicly happening here because holocaust denial sites prefer to ban rather than engage, apparently. That's literally why multiple tourists are using this site to have their discussion, which they previously had on another site. I say genuine, because without knowing 100% sure, I'm sure they get things wrong and engage in concealment of what they get wrong. There just isn't much fruit for me to engage in that discussion. Even a mild version of that position is completely taboo. It isn't a position that's used to siphon billions of dollars from one source to another. The influence is completely minimal in misleading new generations.

I'll point it out when I see an obvious point, like I think it was @Bonesjones but it could have been somebody else, who thought the extra machine gun rounds requested for special action could refer to hunting, which is so completely unpractical as to be farcical. Like using fat bodies for extra fuel in cremation, or droning on about the excellent fuel efficiency of cremation, but then start talking about open air pits.

For me it's more about what they don't say than what they do say. Chugger avoids most holocaust issues and is distinctly ignorant of revisionists work, while also avoiding discussion of the testimony he tells everyone is so very important.

A revisionist will discuss every aspect of the issue and will admit where there are gaps. A promoter cannot. This is why no work has ever been produced by a holocaust orthodox scholar that matches revisionists work.

Could you clarify please what your problem with the holocaust denial exactly is in this thread?

For other such websites. Codoh.com is a research site. The people on it are the some of the world's foremost revisionists. Therefore you are not allowed to just come on and spew whatever nonsense is in your head. When asked to answer, you will answer or you will go. That's completely fair and reasonable. Yet still, anti revisionist posters still post and their posts remain on the site. In no sense is their case not heard. Moreover if you feel that your case is not being heard you can battle it out on rodoh.com where there is deliberately more room to post utter holocaust promoter drivel all you like and never answer anything.

As for these extra rounds for the eg groups. Most military combat units want extra rounds. The eg was increasingly engaged in anti partisan activity as well as its other many civilian administration tasks.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

As said I don't think it's very fruitful to engage too far in my misgivings. The way you say the people on codoh are some of the world's foremost revisionists makes raise my eyebrows. It implies that this comes with some prestige or halo and it's just a really odd way to look at things for me.

It seems completely unearned to me. People broadly don't accept their views. They are working in the internet's ghetto, much like deep thought is a kiwifarm ghetto. Exciting places to talk about taboo stuff, sure, but not exactly a place where anyone is a "foremost" anything.

Your own patter is remniscent of both atheists and christians on early youtube. You wear a proverbial suit and you give the talking points and exclaim the unassailability of your position and go through various debating tactics, but you don't talk like a person, you talk like an advocate and it's tremendously boring.

I'm not claiming to be on some higher ground, my main contribution to this thread has been piercing some bullshit, talking about people (which is a lowbrow activity in itself, but a core activity of kiwifarms) and sharing what thoughts I develop along the way and I'm sure I've made some mistakes along the way as well.

I think in general it's a good when people can engage genuinely and try and challenge their own preconceptions once in a while, but that vitality of genuine interaction left the thread long ago.

 

[mrolonzo]

As said I don't think it's very fruitful to engage too far in my misgivings. The way you say the people on codoh are some of the world's foremost revisionists makes raise my eyebrows. It implies that this comes with some prestige or halo and it's just a really odd way to look at things for me.

It seems completely unearned to me. People broadly don't accept their views. They are working in the internet's ghetto, much like deep thought is a kiwifarm ghetto. Exciting places to talk about taboo stuff, sure, but not exactly a place where anyone is a "foremost" anything.

Your own patter is remniscent of both atheists and christians on early youtube. You wear a proverbial suit and you give the talking points and exclaim the unassailability of your position and go through various debating tactics, but you don't talk like a person, you talk like an advocate and it's tremendously boring.

I'm not claiming to be on some higher ground, my main contribution to this thread has been piercing some bullshit, talking about people (which is a lowbrow activity in itself, but a core activity of kiwifarms) and sharing what thoughts I develop along the way and I'm sure I've made some mistakes along the way as well.

I think in general it's a good when people can engage genuinely and try and challenge their own preconceptions once in a while, but that vitality of genuine interaction left the thread long ago.

Very interesting contribution.

Being a revisionist means firstly being aware of the issues of the debate, having read revisionism and generally seeing the history for what it is. Being a foremost revisionist means that but also writing essays and books on the matter.

Given that revisionist history of the holocaust is the only well written, well researched and well thought out history of the holocaust being a revisionist therefore does indeed come with an intellectual prestige, or halo, for any reasonable intellect engaged in the topic.

To some extent this is also a moral question also. The revisionist entertains true intellectual pursuit, the anti revisionist, the orthodox historian, avoids it. Therefore the revisionist pursues truth, the orthodox believers avoid it. Thus the moral difference is clear.

You point out that people don't accept revisionist views. For the most part this is irrelevant. Most people do not read revisionism so have no basis to accept or reject actual history. Moreover, where revisionists have met orthodoxy in real life, revisionists have come out the winner.

Indeed, I establish revisionist work here and assert its unassailability. This is a direct challenge to orthodoxy in every sense. Particularly the aim is to wound the pride of the orthodox peddlers and entice them to come out and state their case clearly. To argue for it with purpose and vigour, to take on revisionism from all the angles, and let us all see where we end up.

You say this is boring, I say this is much more exciting than your piecemeal " let's have a conversation" approach, and doesn't let the holocaust peddler avoid the issues. Not that I don't want conversation, I do, but I don't just accept assertions from ignorant liars. I refute them point blank.

You say the vitality of genuine interaction left the thread long ago. I can say that I think the peddlers were rebuffed by most kiwis here on the technical issues, you were a strong player in this, but then thry claimed a hoped for victory by the discussion with Rapechu. I then came along to smash them utterly by exposing the holocaust from new angles starting with the personal discipline regulations of the SS and the healthcare policy of the SS. Then followed various wriggling by the peddlers into tangents such as nazi policy against leningrad or the diary entries of Goebbels or the use of code words.

Your basic assumption here is that the peddler is interacting genuinely with you. This is not the case. The peddler of the holocaust is an ideologue because the holocaust itself is a conspiracy theory about the nazis. It just happens to be invented and exacerbated by ethnic and state actors. How do we know this? Because while we revisionists and "suit wearers" as you might say, have read orthodox history the peddler has not read revisionism and has no intention of doing so. Nor do they want to discuss the details. Thus the complaining we saw immediately when I posted actual revisionist scholarship.