Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Ghostse]

But another question really remains unanswered. Why 2M-3 was chosen to install on MT-LB, although there is a much more "traditional" solution - ZU-23-2. MT-LB with such an anti-aircraft installation is not wild at all and has been widely used for a long time in many armies around the world, including the Russian Federation and not only after February 24, 2022.

My assumption:
Lots of available 25mm as its not in use vs completing for 23mm with other systems that use it.

And given its a Marine Brigade, they probably have thier hands on it & the turrets vs. having to horse trade.

 

[Ookoo Squad]

It will never be as bizarre as seeing WWII-era semi-auto rifles being used by soldiers.

They're using SVT-40s? Or do you mean 'bolt-action'?

 

[mindlessobserver]

The ICC has made its decision; now let them enforce it.

The need for globohomo institutions to stick their dicks into this mess has been annoying. The IMF, the WEF, the UN, the ICC, the ICJ, every single one of them has been absolutely impotent to deal with what's been going on. Russias aggression is being countered by Ukrainian Blood, NATO steel, and American treasure. Not the endless platitudes and strongly worded statements of International NGOs.

 

[Kenya Jones]

Had to have been a glancing hit, there's no helmet in the world that can stop a rifle round that hits square

There are reports and video evidence that NVG mounts stop rifle rounds but yeah, other than that you're fucked.

 

[mindlessobserver]

There are reports and video evidence that NVG mounts stop rifle rounds but yeah, other than that you're fucked.

Glancing hits. The helmets are not meant to stop bullets. They are meant to protect your head if you fall off the vehicle, trip on a March and land in rocks, or otherwise do some do some dumb shit that could smack your head. And maybe block shrapnel.

 

[Melmac_Knight]

Putin flying through "Liberated" areas of Bakhmut

 

[Trig.Point]

My assumption:
Lots of available 25mm as its not in use vs completing for 23mm with other systems that use it.

And given its a Marine Brigade, they probably have thier hands on it & the turrets vs. having to horse trade.

The Ryan McBeth video said Ammunition production ended in 1984. The Chinese produced a copy so maybe they think they're going to get Ammo from there.

 

[Kenya Jones]

Glancing hits. The helmets are not meant to stop bullets. They are meant to protect your head if you fall off the vehicle, trip on a March and land in rocks, or otherwise do some do some dumb shit that could smack your head. And maybe block shrapnel.

Bump helmets have existed for a long time. Most helmets since WWII and onwards should be able to take about a 9mm round from some distance, to simulate some of the worst shrapnel. Helmets in the last 30 years (at least in America) have been able to handily take pistol rounds up close. And yeah now they're thinking of adding bits that can stop rifle rounds. But the idea that current helmets are just bump helmets are insane, even tanker helmets have shrapnel protection now.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

Bump helmets have existed for a long time. Most helmets since WWII and onwards should be able to take about a 9mm round from some distance, to simulate some of the worst shrapnel. Helmets in the last 30 years (at least in America) have been able to handily take pistol rounds up close. And yeah now they're thinking of adding bits that can stop rifle rounds. But the idea that current helmets are just bump helmets are insane, even tanker helmets have shrapnel protection now.

Expecting people in this thread who have TOTALLY SERVED IN THE ARMY U GUISE to actually know what they're talking about is a pretty big thing to ask, so cut them some slack.

There are, I won't say "plenty", but "enough" military helmets out there that have been shown to stop some rifle rounds. And yes they are primarily for protection from falling objects and shell fragments, because taking a bullet to the helmet, if it doesn't kill you through backface deformation, may just snap your neck.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

need for globohomo institutions to stick their dicks into this mess has been annoying. The IMF, the WEF, the UN, the ICC, the ICJ, every single one of them has been absolutely impotent to deal with what's been going on. Russias aggression is being countered by Ukrainian Blood, NATO steel, and American treasure. Not the endless platitudes and strongly worde

I mean, there's not much the ICC can do. They are a court, and, like all courts, they lack the ability to enforce their own authority. They depend on the efforts of states that recognize their authority to actually bring in people for trial. That being said, this now limits where Putin can go (or potentially run to if things go tits up), since he can now be arrested by any ICC member state.

 

[mindlessobserver]

I mean, there's not much the ICC can do. They are a court, and, like all courts, they lack the ability to enforce their own authority. They depend on the efforts of states that recognize their authority to actually bring in people for trial. That being said, this now limits where Putin can go (or potentially run to if things go tits up), since he can now be arrested by any ICC member state.

True, and the courts jurisdictional claim is sound, in that the crimes alleged have occurred in the territory of a State that did sign on to the Rome Statute.

On general principle though I don't like the idea of a Head of State being answerable to an international body unless said body is literally a Victor's court to settle accounts at the end of a War like the Nuremburg Tribunal

 

[HOMO FOR LIFE RETURNS]

ICC: ARREST PUTIN.

Russia/India/China/Middle East: lolwut

 

[Blatant hypocrite]

That being said, this now limits where Putin can go (or potentially run to if things go tits up), since he can now be arrested by any ICC member state.

Begs the question though: Will they? Who's gonna arrest Putin when he shows up for a G20 summit?

The ICC could've just kept their mouth shut and said "We don't know, we need more time to gather evidence, we'll decide after the war is over." What do they achieve with this ruling, other than embarrassing themselves in the long run?

 

[Jewthulhu]

ICC: ARREST PUTIN.

Russia/India/China/Middle East: lolwut

Funnily enough, the US isn't beholden to the ICC either.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Expecting people in this thread who have TOTALLY SERVED IN THE ARMY U GUISE to actually know what they're talking about is a pretty big thing to ask, so cut them some slack.

There are, I won't say "plenty", but "enough" military helmets out there that have been shown to stop some rifle rounds. And yes they are primarily for protection from falling objects and shell fragments, because taking a bullet to the helmet, if it doesn't kill you through backface deformation, may just snap your neck.

At extreme range, or lucky hits. The standard issue helmet in the US Army and for that part all NATO armies really is designed to be lightweight and sturdy, not bullet proof. Most are made out of Kevlar fiber. It's many things. Bullet proof is not one of them.

I'm going to ignore the snark, and point out you are largely correct in that the helmet is also piss poor at shock force impact mitigation too. Which is why Traumatic Brain Injuries tend to be a thing in soldiers wounded near explosions like IEDs. That said, A direct hit from most any rifle round at its effective range will also go right through any standard issue helmet.

And since we are bringing up TOTALLY SERVED FOR REALSIES, I would rather have a light weight helmet on all day that will protect me from getting brained by flying shrapnel or falling out of a command hatch vs the heavy weight of a fully bullet proof helmet. Hours and Hours of Kevlar fiber, plus the night vision goggles was a pain in the neck already. Adding even more Weight to that and I would take my chances with the patrol cap instead of the helmet.

 

[draggs]

Obviously the solution is to bioengineer soldiers with no necks so they can all wear 15 pound helmets and never have to worry about taking a rifle round to the dome ever again

 

[Ghostse]

They seriously think there is something special about the drones turbo prop engine? Now that IS funny.

It is when you are Russia.

The need for globohomo institutions to stick their dicks into this mess has been annoying. The IMF, the WEF, the UN, the ICC, the ICJ, every single one of them has been absolutely impotent to deal with what's been going on. Russias aggression is being countered by Ukrainian Blood, NATO steel, and American treasure. Not the endless platitudes and strongly worded statements of International NGOs.

On general principle though I don't like the idea of a Head of State being answerable to an international body unless said body is literally a Victor's court to settle accounts at the end of a War like the Nuremburg Tribunal

I do not like Globohomo, and this (and 2014) are good indicators as to why: Globohomo is completely incompetent and run by powertrippers because everyone is in a circlejerk agreement that their pronunciations carry weight simply because they are an Official Body and pronounced something. When someone like Putin comes along and refuses to play pretend, and can't be bullied or arrested/imprisoned by police, their inability to actually influence reality becomes readily apparent. The only thing the can do is boss around unarmed, buckbroken serfs and have no clue or even mechanism for handling someone they can't bully and doesn't play by their rules.
I liked Putin endlessly clowning on "vaunted international organizations", and showing why the USSR (and the chinks) getting a veto in the UN was a terrible idea. My respect for his eurocuck dunking game ended when he put troops over Ukraine's border.

Also my problem with the ICC specifically is that it is a bunch of civie faggots - actually worse than that civie EUROfaggots - who's most stressful moment in adult life is having to be in traffic and have no fucking clue what battle field conditions are, sitting in judgement of people who were in the shit. I think there should be a requirement that anyone involved in any actual legal work - judges, juries, ideally attorneys - be people serving who have served in uniformed armed forces (ideally at least partly as enlisted) and actually seen combat.

Obviously the solution is to bioengineer soldiers with no necks so they can all wear 15 pound helmets and never have to worry about taking a rifle round to the dome ever again

Marines have done a pretty good job of finding & developing recruits for who the brain is a vestigial organ.

 

[draggs]

I have a friend who was in the Marines (who is not dumb lol) who joked to me once that Marines decided never mind standing in the line for brains, we'll circle back around to the dick line to get a couple more inches where a couple more inches counts most

 

[Ghostse]

The Ryan McBeth video said Ammunition production ended in 1984. The Chinese produced a copy so maybe they think they're going to get Ammo from there.

Just from what I know of Soviet logistics (and military logistics in general), ammo production might have stopped but they/some coastie naval unit are probably sitting on tons of the shit in ammo bunkers. (whether it still shoots being a whole other thing).

I know the 23mm is used in a bunch of other soviet systems, so I'd assume there is competition for the ammo. And very possibly given prevalence of drones in the conflict, competition for the guns too.

Its a logical decision - a bad decisions yes but one but the logic of 'we use what we can get our hands easily and cheaply regardless of quality' is consistent. And its not like the General green lighting this shit will be on the front.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Also my problem with the ICC specifically is that it is a bunch of civie faggots - actually worse than that civie EUROfaggots - who's most stressful moment in adult life is having to be in traffic and have no fucking clue what battle field conditions are, sitting in judgement of people who were in the shit. I think there should be a requirement that anyone involved in any actual legal work - judges, juries, ideally attorneys - be people serving who have served in uniformed armed forces (ideally at least partly as enlisted) and actually seen combat.

In fairness to the ICC, even though I dislike them on general principle, the issue they decided to go to the mat over was the deportation of minor children from Ukraine to Russia, and then subsequently putting them up for adoption.

International Law is crystal clear on this issue. Minor Children unarmed are automatically conferred non-combatant status under the Geneva Convention, as such they cannot be seized by occupying authorities unless there is a militarily practical reason for doing so. In which case however, they must be held as Prisoners of War subject to repatriation at the cessation of hostilities. Putting the children up for adoption in Russia instead is a violation of the Geneva Convention as it precludes repatriation.

Setting aside literally all other whinging about muh human rights and proportional use of force, the decision to relocate tens of thousands of minor aged Ukrainian citizens to Russia and putting them up for adoption instead of holding them in POW camps pending repatriation and return to their parents was a flagrant and WILLFULL violation of the laws of war. So willfull in fact Putin went on Russian state TV to film himself being a war criminal. By the very letter in fact. There really is no way to moderate it.

It was and is a war crime. And I expect it's going to be one of the most brutally contentious issues to come out of this mess that will endure long after the guns fall silent.