The retarded idea of having two threads on the Ukraine war, and how it's the future of the internet.

[Whoopsie Daisy]

When I first saw the two Ukraine threads I thought it was a retarded idea. Why have two threads for the same topic? Are the posters on here so childish and emotionally stunted that they can't bear to read an opposing opinion with replying and sperging out? It turns out that no, they can't.

it isn't just Kiwifarms though, but it is the farms that highlighted how forward-thinking this idea is and how it will be the future of discussions on the internet.

Brexit and Trump were just the foreshadowing of the future to come. As the internet bleeds into real life and life bleeds back onto the internet; like life imitating art and vice versa, we will see more and more topics descend into a split, a chasm of conversation so wide that there is no middle-ground, no centre or even slightly-off-centre positions.

The only way to combat every topic turning into unreadable, emotionally-charged sperging is to create separate threads for separate viewpoints; segregating conversation to echo chambers. Once upon a time, echo chambers were seen as the soft, cuddle, pussified way of engaging in online discourse; surrounding yourself with only one view point meant that you missed on the deep thoughts of the 'other side'. However, nowadays the 'other side' is unreachable, it is impossible to communicate with them (because of the psychology of the mind that has been ramped to 11 in recent years, but that's for another topic).

If it's impossible, pointless and a waste of time communicating with people who share the opposing viewpoint as you, why engage at all? Why not surround yourself with like-minded people and discuss the nuances of your own position and beliefs? Why not?

I believe the way to help the internet, to bring everyone back from the brink, is to split it in three parts; a 'popular' internet, which would focus on supporting 'thing of the year' topics like Covid, TDS, Ukraine and Trans. A 'questioning' internet, focusing on questioning 'current year' topics like Ukraine, Covid, Trump and woke and a third option of 'Just give me the internet' which would be what we have now.

The benefit to this would be 2-3x times more clicks, views and revenue that what is generated now.

Edit: To add; Why has segregation become such a positive and needed approach now, when it was unthinkable 10 years ago? What changed?

Tl;Dr - Should the internet be segregated and divided into echo chambers to avoid wasting time listening to incompatible opinions voiced by incompatible people?

 

[DumbDude43]

If it's impossible, pointless and a waste of time communicating with people who share the opposing viewpoint as you, why engage at all?

because i want to read and talk about news and updates as the situation develops without constantly having the thread drowned in endless shitflinging and drawn out flamewars

like, imagine reading one of the tranny threads here, but on every single page 8 out of 10 posts are just an endless back and forth of the exact same shitposting along the lines of
>stop spreading trans genocide you evil bigots
>YWNBAW you ugly troon
>go 41% yourself you groomer
>actually transphobes are the real pedophiles
>gender affirming care is a human right
>go shoot up more cat hair estrogen from brazil you nutcase

that's the kind of situation you get when you force opposing factions into a single thread. can't really moderate the problem away either, cause people quickly learn to fine-tune their posts to be maximum offensive shitposts while still technically maintaining just enough on topic relevance and plausible deniability to avoid getting banhammered.

 

[TEA 3HF]

Retard is mad about retard containment. Very deep and profound.

 

[Whoopsie Daisy]

because i want to read and talk about news and updates as the situation develops without constantly having the thread drowned in endless shitflinging and drawn out flamewars

like, imagine reading one of the tranny threads here, but on every single page 8 out of 10 posts are just an endless back and forth of the exact same shitposting along the lines of
>stop spreading trans genocide you evil bigots
>YWNBAW you ugly troon
>go 41% yourself you groomer
>actually transphobes are the real pedophiles
>gender affirming care is a human right
>go shoot up more cat hair estrogen from brazil you nutcase

that's the kind of situation you get when you force opposing factions into a single thread. can't really moderate the problem away either, cause people quickly learn to fine-tune their posts to be maximum offensive shitposts while still technically maintaining just enough on topic relevance and plausible deniability to avoid getting banhammered.

I agree completely. twenty years ago this issue was not as wide-spread as it is now. Maybe sports threads or console wars threads would become unreadable slap-fights, outside of that it was unheard of.

Have we got to the point where the Internet needs separating? If so, then it shouldn't be surprising, as one of the early talking points of the internet was how to segregate it and then charge money for access.

Are we seeing the long game plan come to fruition? A lefty only internet would be a haven for lefties, leaving traditional and conservative people to their own internet, which would be hidden behind a paywall.

Retard is mad about retard containment. Very deep and profound.

Read the OP. I'm not mad. Segregation is a good idea now, when it wasn't before.

 

[Fortyone]

If anything we should force people to interact on a single platform so we can increase the amount of flaming and trolling until the weak log off and go do something irl instead. Echo chambers are a terrible fucking idea and they only increase division and retardation and cause people to think along ideological lines instead of logically or critically. Echo chambers produce things like people that believe you can be a woman by chopping your cock off and making a hole for dilators and cocks where your reproductive organ used to be, or retarded boomers thinking Trump is the second coming of christ and that Q anon will magically change the last election and declare trump's second term. basically, echo chambers cause people to ignore reality and think religiously about retarded shit, they need to be destroyed.

In the case of the Ukraine war discussion splitting the thread in two was mostly done for making moderation easier, this way you can thread ban a guy who starts a huge shitfight and throws discussion off-course while users bitch at the mods to stop him. It started first on /pol/ on 4chan, there was only one Ukraine happening thread initially then the GPG and Syrian war general retards were enraged people in the thread weren't sucking Russia's cock and made their own general called comfy happening in Ukraine where they could circlejerk about how mighty Russia supposedly is. So now you have /UHG/ and /CHUG/, which I believe have both had over 10,000 threads each. It's a semi-effective way of containing retards, and the 3rd worlders that hate America, Russians, and groypers stick to /CHUG/ while the Ukrainians, redditors, and NAFO guys stick to /UHG/.

If you want proof echo chambers are bad go look on facebook and see all the 90 IQ retards who think they're the next Lenin or political saviour of the united states with the most uninformed propaganda-fueled takes imaginable. They got that way because they went to reddit (far left echo chamber and propaganda) or watched excessive fox new and Alex Jones (far right echo chambers and propaganda)

 

[WelfareNiggerQueen]

Having 2 threads has managed to clean up the Polish issue that was shitting up the OG thread. Imaging being so Polish you manage to get banned in the thread dedicated to being butthurt at Russia. Now there's a more reasonable thread and another thread that is almost NAFO tier but way more tolerable to read since the eternal Pole has been purged

As a wise Haitian man once said, "Polish are the white negroes of Europe."

 

[Whoopsie Daisy]

Echo chambers are a terrible fucking idea and they only increase division and retardation and cause people to think along ideological lines instead of logically or critically

10 years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly on this point. Nowadays it it's not longer applicable because the vast majority already think along ideological lines.

Case in point the COVID and Ukraine threads. They are/were just two echo-chambers fighting in the same room, are they not?

They got that way because they went to reddit (far left echo chamber and propaganda) or watched excessive fox new and Alex Jones (far right echo chambers and propaganda)

Political echo chambers are retarded, because discussing politics is in general, retarded, with very few exceptions.

What I'm see more and more and maybe you're seeing it as well, is that those retarded echo-chamber political posters are bringing their extreme points of view to other topics and causing a division straight away.

Again, to turn to the CoVID and Ukraine threads, it's pretty much split politically. If you're left leaning, you wanted lockdown, vaxes and mandates. The right wanted freedom, individual choice and no vaccines.

The same in Ukraine. Those who support the west and Ukraine are generally left-leaning, trans-loving, twitter dwellers who support the message. Those who support Russia, or are against the expansion of the west, are right leaning people.

Those echo chambers already exist. All we, or certainly I, am/are doing is stubbornly ignoring what's right Infront of our faces.

Maybe the segregation shouldn't be political but be 'socially popular'? Segregate those here for social reasons and those here for learning?

 

[Onni Kalsarikännit]

Echo chambers got us into this shit in the first place and created spergs who can't stop being spergs and now spergs who can't stop being retarded spergs should be separated into echo chambers again so that spergs just sperg with fellow spergs of their own spergy spergfaction?

 

[Fortyone]

Political echo chambers are retarded, because discussing politics is in general, retarded, with very few exceptions.

agreed 100%, you lower yourself to the position of a pawn when you get obsessed with politics, especially these days now that political arguments have taken on a more sinister and twisted role compared to 10, 15 years ago.

Those echo chambers already exist. All we, or certainly I, am/are doing is stubbornly ignoring what's right Infront of our faces.

I still disagree with what would essentially be reinforcing and further empowering these echo chambers, people need to be held accountable somehow when they post insane trash that bends the minds of naive normalfags, whether it's far left of far right propaganda. Sadly it's people with real money (billionaires) who push these kinds of messages for various reasons, so I doubt it will stop any time.

 

[Skeletonized Cow]

Part of the problem is that invariably people with moderate opinions are being pushed into one camp or the other by the hyper-reactionary elements of both sides.

I started off the Hoholocaust vaguely pro-Ukie, but not supporting giving them billions of dollars. That led to me being labeled a Russian shill, a Nazi, etc. Over time, my own personal reaction has led to me being increasingly anti-hohol (but not pro-Russian) and that only accelerated my exit from discussions with the Ukraine side.

If people weren't extremely reactionary and tolerated more moderate stances in the first place, people wouldn't be flocking to the counter position in droves.

 

[Fomo Hoire]

The internet is already segregated, just look at r/china and r/sino for example. Specifically, look at the about sections and the networks of subreddits for both. There is no overlap, they're segregated communities. The closest thing between the two is the Hong Kong subreddit, but if you look closely they're spelled differently so really it's just the two of them fighting over who really gets to represent HK.

Spoiler: Edit

In the old days there was still segregation, but it was more corporate - you aren't allowed to say the name of a competitor's site or an off-site instant messenger. Email doesn't exist. Social media doesn't exist. Keep your eyes here and only visit our sister sites!

That kind of segregation didn't produce such polarized groups because it was not filtering based on thoughts, and trying to implement such an archaic walled garden in today's terminally online same username everywhere world would be futile.

KF isn't special because there's different cliques, KF is only special in that it doesn't let users create their own forums. The cliques here can segregate, but they cant segregate as cleanly as they can on other sites. If KF were any other site, perhaps the losing group would move off-site so they can be a big fish in a small pond somewhere else.

But, for all the n-words found within KF, it is also the most unconditionally welcoming community this side of the small-i internet. When everyone gets along, we're all assholes, the baseline isn't that great. But when everyone is going for each other's throats, people might get a threadban, but you have to do more than wrongthink to get a full site IP ban. I don't think there's even a shadowban system here. Because KF is so "welcoming", when cliques get extremely polarized, it is more difficult than usual for the "losing" side to take their ball and find another home.

Really you're just witnessing what has already happened to the rest of the internet, but at the end of the line. Once you get this far, the only way to leave is to go touch grass.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

Are the posters on here so childish and emotionally stunted that they can't bear to read an opposing opinion with replying and sperging out? It turns out that no, they can't.

This is more like on how each thread is going.

Pro-russian thread: 'guys, as guy#1 says ruzzia is winnung, so they will uss T-55 as a decoy, because they wainnung, and they winnung because guy#1 say this. And T-14 will arrive to frontline, just wait another two weeks bro'. Also shitty memes. Mostly this is shitpost thread with pro-russian bias.

'Pro-ukrainian': more like using facts and sperging about sources than shitposting. It seems to be pro-ukrainian mostly because without making some extreme and mulitlayered shitposting it is ipossible to support an agressor. Or beat that Russia can at the end of a day win war with NATO.

Which side is more childlish - well, check who is trying to weaponize like-reactions.

Part of the problem is that invariably people with moderate opinions are being pushed into one camp or the other by the hyper-reactionary elements of both sides.

Wait, what?

You changed your opinion just because you read few spergers of internetz? On kiwifarms?

 

[DumbDude43]

Echo chambers are a terrible fucking idea and they only increase division and retardation and cause people to think along ideological lines instead of logically or critically.

this is wrong. i think people naturally segregate themselves into echo chambers whenever they can, simply because interacting with contratian retards who heckle and disrupt your conversations is not enjoyable.

the self-congratulatory talk about 'le marketplace of ideas' and 'open debate' from supposed centrists/moderates is usually very dishonest, because almost every single one of the people who push this idea are themselves openly excluding certain positions from their 'open' discussion exactly like the echo chambers they decry. basically whenever someone is bitching about how people being in echo chambers is bad, it's usually because they simply want their own echo chamber to be the one people are locked in, where they themselves can control what people are allowed to say and and hear.

 

[David Brown]

Someone who can't handle seeing a differing idea presented in good faith without throwing a shitfit should not be allowed to post at all. moderation should be waaaay harsher and involve public humiliation. Anyone should be allowed to articulate a specific idea using reason, evidence, or whatever else compelled them to think the thought. Throwing tantrums and insulting people without including substantive argumentation should be punished with a dunce cap and a tomato in the face in front of an audience. Being MATI without articulate reasoning skills should be shameful and humiliating, but not suppressed and deleted.

 

[Synthetic Smug]

Retard is mad about retard containment. Very deep and profound.

Are you mad about that?

 

[Whoopsie Daisy]

This is more like on how each thread is going.

Pro-russian thread: 'guys, as guy#1 says ruzzia is winnung, so they will uss T-55 as a decoy, because they wainnung, and they winnung because guy#1 say this. And T-14 will arrive to frontline, just wait another two weeks bro'. Also shitty memes. Mostly this is shitpost thread with pro-russian bias.

'Pro-ukrainian': more like using facts and sperging about sources than shitposting. It seems to be pro-ukrainian mostly because without making some extreme and mulitlayered shitposting it is ipossible to support an agressor. Or beat that Russia can at the end of a day win war with NATO.

Which side is more childlish - well, check who is trying to weaponize like-reactions.

I'm going to use this post and you as an example for what I am talking about. I am not taking sides, nor attacking you personally, if you think you're being mocked/attacked, that's on you.

You describe perfectly, the way the internet has gone and why I now find echo chambers more attractive than I did 10 years ago. It isn't about the content or what you believe in, but it's how it is presented.

You present one side as full of lies, propaganda and shitposts, while comparing 'your' side with wholesome facts, sources and taking sides based on your own viewpoints.

Again, I'm not taking sides, I am just highlighting how everyones bias has become so retarded that they cannot see the middle ground, the cross-over, the overlap. Where one side sees facts and sources, the other sees lies and propaganda. The problem is, they're both lies and propaganda, but having a discussion around that is impossible.

Like other posters have said, you cannot have a middle ground or nuanced opinion. Everything is extremes. In my perfect internet, the extremes are banished onto their own internet, not a different thread or different website, but a completely different internet so that their slap fights cannot interfere with that of normal debate.

I would also move away from forum run moderation and have a community 'vote-to-kick' option.

 

[draggs]

Never cry to jannies and null

Crying to jannies and null until they can't take it anymore (for free) is why we are where we are now

Not because of le very important shitposting squabbles

Because butthurt baby bitches couldn't stop crying to fucking jannies about it

I've never indulged in such degeneracy as pozloading janny neghole and I don't know why others can't be like that

 

[mindlessobserver]

The problem was the posting culture of the two sides were wildly different too. One side was very quick to bug the Mods to censor and the other was not. There was also very determined brigading done to drown out differing opinions. The threads were segregated already, even before the partition with the Ukraine side in A&N and the Russian side in Happenings. Certain moderators were also quite willing to aid in astronturfing the conversation.

At a fundamental level though the issue in the Ukraine thread is the same as the one with respect to the war. Two diametrically opposed versions of reality literally killing people over it. Russia being a murderous aggressor out to reset the peaceful world order is as much true to one side as poor innocent Russia being forced into a corner by NATO expansion and the Globohomo hegemony is to the other.

Putting both sides of that sort of an argument together in one thread was like putting two cats in bag and throwing it in water. It was impossible to actually talk about anything without a flame war starting and mods indiscriminately Banning people.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

You present one side as full of lies, propaganda and shitposts, while comparing 'your' side with wholesome facts, sources and taking sides based on your own viewpoints

I'm pretty sure it is easy to make some quantitive measurments in which thread you will find more memes and in which you will find more backed by sources statments.

Where one side sees facts and sources, the other sees lies and propaganda.

More like 'in one htread we have sources (not always telling truth), in second we have opinions made on former posts and propaganda, rarely any info or source other than twitter'.

Like other posters have said, you cannot have a middle ground or nuanced opinion.

Well, why not? Seriously, you will not be killed in 'pro-ukrainian thread' if you will dispute on rational basis about how aid is distributed (but yes, you will be yelled if you post a cleary fake and will just dismiss hard evidence that it is fake) or how war is going (but again: yes, you will be puked if you will made posts like 'Russia is winning because a childfucker who escpaed to Russia says so' or 'Bakhmut is a smart trap for Ukrainians, more than gorillion NATO dogs-of-war die every second' - again, facts, not twitter).

You can also dispute sources used in so called 'pro-ukrainian' thread with other sources or evidence. IDK, if you see a source that says about transport of US equipment in Poland that will go to Ukraine and you can present evidence that it is not going there it will be accepted (we have such affair few weeks ago, probably).

And not always it is a middle ground. Let we look on John Paul Second: it is proved than he was hidding evidence and was refusing to report degenerates to police forces even in his days as a simple priest, but some people will just ingore all evidence. This means that both groups should make concessions to find a middle ground ('you can fuck children, but only in communist country if you are a anti-communist fighter') or just means that one of this groups is wrong?

 

[Fortyone]

Pro-ukrainian': more like using facts and sperging about sources than shitposting. It seems to be pro-ukrainian mostly because without making some extreme and mulitlayered shitposting it is ipossible to support an agressor. Or beat that Russia can at the end of a day win war with NATO.

Which side is more childlish - well, check who is trying to weaponize like-reactions.

I'm pro Ukraine personally, as I don't think Imperialism and Annexing your neighbor's land in the nuclear age is a good idea and it should be stopped so other nations don't get any ideas, but I think the Ukrainian side has it's fair share of copium and delusional thinking as well. Alot of Ukraine supporters will rehash propaganda and things they heard from talking heads without thinking logically (300,000 mobilized in Russia is meaningless, Russia is running out of missiles but somehow attack with 100 cruise missiles every few weeks, Russians have no drones despite the fact the lancet is an extremely effective and affordable drone, etc.), but I'll definitely concede the Russian side tends to be even more delusional and vulnerable to insane propaganda.

this is wrong. i think people naturally segregate themselves into echo chambers whenever they can, simply because interacting with contratian retards who heckle and disrupt your conversations is not enjoyable.

the self-congratulatory talk about 'le marketplace of ideas' and 'open debate' from supposed centrists/moderates is usually very dishonest, because almost every single one of the people who push this idea are themselves openly excluding certain positions from their 'open' discussion exactly like the echo chambers they decry. basically whenever someone is bitching about how people being in echo chambers is bad, it's usually because they simply want their own echo chamber to be the one people are locked in, where they themselves can control what people are allowed to say and and hear.

Segregating like that might be a natural instinct but so is eating until you're a landwhale or ignoring work because you don't feel like doing it, in order to act like a human being you need to resist the urge to do certain deleterious things sometimes. And besides I really do think having opposing points of view presented is a good thing, people religiously following one line of thought because they're willfully blind to contrary evidence is retarded and leads to bad places.