Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

That really depends. The leo is meant to be used in a high speed manoeuvre war, where the T55 more of a conventional heavy-armoured beastie. If the ukranians try and use the leo the same way they'd use a contemporary Russian tank, then of course it won't last long. The T55, by contrast, is meant to operate in a more conventional way, but is vulnerable to the higher velocity shells the leo fires.

With that out of the way, I'm now legally obliged to remind everyone that the Leopard 1 is the wonderweapon that will be leading the victory parades through the streets of moscow in six weeks, because I am a good friend of the great nation of Ukrael and the CIA.
At least with the Leopard 1A5 it has a thermal camera and rangefinders from the 1980s, not sure if they are going to have anything else installed. Has anyone combed through the images of the activated T-55s to determine if they are some later iteration or is this going to be some Iraqi Army tier shitbox?
 
That really depends. The leo is meant to be used in a high speed manoeuvre war, where the T55 more of a conventional heavy-armoured beastie. If the ukranians try and use the leo the same way they'd use a contemporary Russian tank, then of course it won't last long. The T55, by contrast, is meant to operate in a more conventional way, but is vulnerable to the higher velocity shells the leo fires.

With that out of the way, I'm now legally obliged to remind everyone that the Leopard 1 is the wonderweapon that will be leading the victory parades through the streets of moscow in six weeks, because I am a good friend of the great nation of Ukrael and the CIA.
Drones that have been taking out Russian T-72s and 80s for a year are going to slaughter T-54/55s even worse

Never mind that modern cannon from about 25mm up with modern armor piercing discarding sabot ammo will absolutely hole the fuck out of them
 
Also, they aren't going to unlearn doctrine that's been pounded into their heads for decades
They've already had almost a decade of NATO-style doctrine, thanks to the military reforms that followed the Crimean invasion. On top of which, a lot of the crews for these new tanks are fresh recruits, being trained without any preconceptions or prior doctrinal influence. It's not a perfect change, of course; they're still part of a military that is heavily influenced by soviet-era thinking and culture, but they're on a very different path to the Russian military.

Who are, let us not forget, allegedly dragging out 60s-era military reserves to replace their lost equipment. If that's really the case, then they're not even an era-peer of the tanks they'll be facing. The Leopard 1s Ukraine is receiving are refits from the 1980s.
 
Is Gerasimov days away from defenestration? (Literal or figurative.)

He was ordered to capture the Donbas by the end of March. It's starting to look like he won't quite make that deadline.

Who is left to take his place if he is removed?

View attachment 4856732
No one lol. Gerasimov was likely never effectively removed from command either, the whole “Surovikin” withdrawal from the left bank and missile attacks were planned well in advance to Gerasimov’s departure too.

Surovikin was a feint cauldron is boiling i have proofs ahhh
 
Hmm....something seems to be missing from russian state media at the moment....
where bakhmut1.pngwhere bakhmut2.pngwhere bakhmut3.png

where bakhmut0.jpg
 
This bitchfit about DU has been pretty entertaining. I understand why Russia is concerned, but the bullshit they're trying to sell to the general public is fucking comical. They're trying to make it seem like the Challenger2 is going to be firing fuel rods.
What amuses me is, there are a lot of people who previously had that same bitch-fit about DU, but are now suddenly acting like it's entirely harmless (possibly even edible). The reality i that neither of these positions is correct; it's a shell made out of a heavy metal, which can potentially be toxic if ingested, but isn't that big a deal compared to all the explody shit the Russians have liberally scattered across the Ukrainian countryside.

Besides, the way the MoD operates, I wouldn't be surprised if they've got rid of all the Chally2's ammo and replaced the gun with a man who shouts BANG! really loud.
 
Drones that have been taking out Russian T-72s and 80s for a year are going to slaughter T-54/55s even worse

Never mind that modern cannon from about 25mm up with modern armor piercing discarding sabot ammo will absolutely hole the fuck out of them

I'm not sure where you get the idea that a 25mm APFSDS, even the best DU round the Bradley has (which I doubt we'd just supply to the Ukes) is gonna be punching through 100mm of steel at a 60 degree angle, at least with any degree of reliability. The side armor and rear armor? Sure.
 
isn't that big a deal
So much so that even the UN, which does not like the USA, has come to the same conclusion.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that a 25mm APFSDS, even the best DU round the Bradley has (which I doubt we'd just supply to the Ukes) is gonna be punching through 100mm of steel at a 60 degree angle, at least with any degree of reliability. The side armor and rear armor? Sure.
We're talking about tanks that are decades old and have been sitting outside the entire time, those hulls are gonna be weak as fuck. Also, a mobility kill is still a kill.
 
I'm not sure where you get the idea that a 25mm APFSDS, even the best DU round the Bradley has (which I doubt we'd just supply to the Ukes) is gonna be punching through 100mm of steel at a 60 degree angle, at least with any degree of reliability. The side armor and rear armor? Sure.
I got the idea from actually looking into it lol

Bradleys taking out Iraqi T-55s with their autocannon and getting decent damage on Iraqi T-72s in the Gulf War is a simple fact. 30 years ago. If you think Russian T-55s taken out of decades of mothballing are gonna stand up to the challenge better, go ahead
 
I think a lot of foreigners will find LazerPig's video on Armata very informative. Not just regarding the tank itself but the underlying context in which it was conceived.
Explaining Russian mentality and society, showing you why exactly we ended up in this situation.
The stuff on the engine and the old T-95 program was informative. The thing mostly being reliant on western imports isn't unexpected. His videos do need to be taken with a pinch of salt though. He has a habit of overexaggerating and has gotten his history wrong at times.
 
I got the idea from actually looking into it lol

Bradleys taking out Iraqi T-55s with their autocannon and getting decent damage on Iraqi T-72s in the Gulf War is a simple fact. 30 years ago. If you think Russian T-55s taken out of decades of mothballing are gonna stand up to the challenge better, go ahead
Bradley is pretty fucked if a T-72 gets the first shot off at it. But that almost never happens. What usually happens is the Bradley knows the T-72 is there before the T-72 knows the Bradley is and the first indication for the tank crew they are in trouble is either a TOW missile slamming into the hull or Auto-Cannon rounds systematically stripping every external peep hole and sensor off the vehicle.

The stuff on the engine and the old T-95 program was informative. The thing mostly being reliant on western imports isn't unexpected. His videos do need to be taken with a pinch of salt though. He has a habit of overexaggerating and has gotten his history wrong at times.
No sign of the T-14 in Ukraine though, and I doubt there ever will be. I agree with his impression the entire program was pure propaganda, smoke, and mirrors. We seem to be more likely to see a T-32 vs. Abrams tank battle before T-14 vs. Abrams at this rate.
 
The only purpose I can see the Russians bringing in the old T-54/55 tanks in is for patrol in Bakhmut when they finally end up taking it over. No way that they could sprint across muddy fields or be at all useful anywhere else.
never underestimated Russian incompetence.
I did not thought that Russia would be rolling out T-62s and other shit, but here we are.
 
Moscow: Russia’s Security Council Deputy Chairman and ex-president Dmitry Medvedev claimed that the Russian T-90M tanks are currently the “best in the world”. He added that these tanks outperform Leopard, Challenger and Abrams in terms of tactical and technical data.
World of Tanks about to have yet ANOTHER leak of classified data.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that a 25mm APFSDS, even the best DU round the Bradley has (which I doubt we'd just supply to the Ukes) is gonna be punching through 100mm of steel at a 60 degree angle, at least with any degree of reliability. The side armor and rear armor? Sure.
From Desert Storm. Bushmaster was getting kills on T-55s.

They've already had almost a decade of NATO-style doctrine, thanks to the military reforms that followed the Crimean invasion. On top of which, a lot of the crews for these new tanks are fresh recruits, being trained without any preconceptions or prior doctrinal influence. It's not a perfect change, of course; they're still part of a military that is heavily influenced by soviet-era thinking and culture, but they're on a very different path to the Russian military.

Who are, let us not forget, allegedly dragging out 60s-era military reserves to replace their lost equipment. If that's really the case, then they're not even an era-peer of the tanks they'll be facing. The Leopard 1s Ukraine is receiving are refits from the 1980s.
Counter point: Crew is only half the story. You need senior officers who will assign resources correctly and junior officers who know how to use the tools they have available to do it.

That really depends. The leo is meant to be used in a high speed manoeuvre war, where the T55 more of a conventional heavy-armoured beastie. If the ukranians try and use the leo the same way they'd use a contemporary Russian tank, then of course it won't last long. The T55, by contrast, is meant to operate in a more conventional way, but is vulnerable to the higher velocity shells the leo fires.
The T-55 WAS a more traditional soviet armored fist. Its no longer sufficient on the modern battlefield; even in vietnam it was vulnerable to LAWs.

At least with the Leopard 1A5 it has a thermal camera and rangefinders from the 1980s, not sure if they are going to have anything else installed. Has anyone combed through the images of the activated T-55s to determine if they are some later iteration or is this going to be some Iraqi Army tier shitbox?
Some armor sperg said they are T-55Bs. Cherry stock. But they are going to the factory presumably to get refits done.
That is, very likely the T-62 treatment: optics from the 70s instead of the 50s, brackets for ERA but no ERA. Painting the gun red to make it shoot faster.
 
@Ghostse Yeah, but were those hard penetration kills from the front or mobility/disabling kills?

I mean, a kill is a kill ultimately, and I don't disbelieve you.
 
@Ghostse Yeah, but were those hard penetration kills from the front or mobility/disabling kills?

I mean, a kill is a kill ultimately, and I don't disbelieve you.
Either way, the assumption that there are going to be some sort of tank duels have little to do with reality. From what I know, it rarely happens in this war, you're more likely to be a victim of artillery strike, ATGM or kamikaze drones. All of which are going to fuck outdated armor even harder.
 
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