Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Pocket Dragoon]

@Exterminatus
Regarding the old armor being shipped in: my bet is they're going largely be used as semi-static armored gun emplacements, integrated with all the trenches & tank barriers Russia has been building in depth, from Zaphorizia to south of Kherson.

In any case, those T-55s probably won't be moving around very much once offloaded & driven to their initial positions; and most probably won't be able to move under their own power for very long either, due to fuel shortages & the fact they're fucking ancient.

Sure, any old mothballed motor can be resurrected by cleaning the dust out, changing the oil & batteries, turn it over by hand to check if it's seized, then make sure it sucks, squeezes, bangs & blows in the right order. But unless they're completely rebuilt with new seals, hoses, bearings, plugs, etc, prior to running it, well....


At this rate, Ukraine won't have to import steel for a long time; they'll be able to plow it up like potatoes whenever it's needed.

 

[Maldavius Figtree]

Probably spoiler that shit if you still can.
I still don't get why they don't surrender. There's a clip that was posted recently where they're clearly offered the option, even though it was some sort of Azov trench cleaning ops. The dude, allegedly from the Far East parts of the Russia, seems to refuse.
What fucking sort of lunatic does that? They must be drugged, cannot be explained otherwise. I don't think that being propagandized that Ukrainians will torture you and that they eat Russian children for breakfast can result in these behaviors. Must be combined with drugs of some sort.

Let’s not act as if we didn’t jerk each other off for weeks about the valiant „Russian warship go fuck yourself“ hoax where it was thought the Ukraine guard rather died than surrendering.

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

Their failure is take Bakhmut so far is just terribly embarrassing. Can you imagine the US devoting its best units to sieging a city in Mexico and failing to take it after 6 months? I do think it's going to fall but after the Bakhmut offensive I suspect the Russians might run out of steam. Very excited to see the salt and cope that's going to come from this next counteroffensive.

It started in August of 2022.
We are in March of 2023.
That's 8 months and counting.

 

[AgendaPoster]

Interesting small documentary (turn captions/subs on, it has English) about a village in Donbas, just west of Slovyansk, so still quite close to the Bakhmut focal point.
Should dispel some stereotypes about quite a few things seen in the media. Some people did not flee at all, even under heavy shelling and deaths. Victims got burials in gardens and already dug holes, the cemetery was shelled, and just going outside meant death for some. Heavily mined, follow dog trails in the snow to avoid explosives as much as possible. A family that fled the Russian advance returned immediately as it was possible and started to repair their home, although conditions are obviously incredibly tough. Their home kinda survived, but they have some grave in the garden. Ukrainians are exhuming some of these shallow graves, probably both for relocation and to see who is in them.
Locals don't really give a fuck about ethnic purity and the sort, openly saying everyone here is mixed and knows both Russian and Ukrainian "What's the difference" - laughing. They just don't wanna live under Russia.

Let’s not act as if we didn’t jerk each other off for weeks about the valiant „Russian warship go fuck yourself“ hoax where it was thought the Ukraine guard rather died than surrendering.

I did not. I fail to remember glorifying a side or enthusiastically posting war footage and the sort. I take Ukraine's side simply because I know who they deal with and want that thing restrained, and I hold a very heavy distrust of obviously patriotic and exaggerated narratives that get sold to the MSM.

 

[draggs]

That Jimmy phony guy is why I'm glad I just pay attention to the goings on

All these personalities on both sides are so fake and gay with their telegrams and youtubes and tiktoks and twitters and facebooks and instagrams

holy shit so many platforms

All of them gay

 

[mindlessobserver]

you want to tell me that THIS was how their "best units" performed?
View attachment 4863172
over 1:100 k/d ratio in vehicles
what a fucking disaster holy shit

And the big Russian cope was that the Iraqis were not using the REAL stuff. Just shitty export models. And also Arabs suck at war unlike Russian soldiers.

Much easier to stick the head in sand then admit the top of the line Soviet shit got absolutely mogged when it ran into American armor.

 

[Octavia]

And the big Russian cope was that the Iraqis were not using the REAL stuff. Just shitty export models. And also Arabs suck at war unlike Russian soldiers.

Much easier to stick the head in sand then admit the top of the line Soviet shit got absolutely mogged when it ran into American armor.

It's just like the cope would be if the Abrams and Leopard get absolutely shit on.
"Waah it's just the 1A5 export model from the 1840's!!!!"
"Waah its just untrained ukrainians operating the Abrams on a 3 week training course and not REAL tankers!!!"

It's all just a matter of perspective lol. It's a near-peer war. Shit happens.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

So does anybody actually believe Medvedev when he says Russia will produce 1500 tanks this year? It's worth noting that only around a thousand T-90s have actually been built by Russia, India has made almost as many T-90S variants as Russia has made T-90s in general.

Maybe, and I mean MAYBE, they could reach that number if they dedicate their time to refurbishing old ass T-72s that were rotting in some depot that have been cannibalized for spare parts and corruption money for decades to simply fight again, but not actually upgrade them.

And the big Russian cope was that the Iraqis were not using the REAL stuff. Just shitty export models. And also Arabs suck at war unlike Russian soldiers.

Much easier to stick the head in sand then admit the top of the line Soviet shit got absolutely mogged when it ran into American armor.

Best part is that Desert Storm BTFO'd Russian tanks so hard, the Soviets renamed their upcoming T-72BM project to the T-90 because they realized that nobody but poor shitholes that couldn't afford anything better would want to touch the T-72 again.

 

[LikeAStone 2.0]

Troons will donate to just about anyone with a pulse without the bare minimum search.

 

[Snekposter]

you want to tell me that THIS was how their "best units" performed?
View attachment 4863172
over 1:100 k/d ratio in vehicles
what a fucking disaster holy shit

Yep. Iraq's finest, equipped with the same export equipment the Warsaw Pact would have been using (what, you thought the Poles and Romanians got the good stuff?), and trained according to the latest in Soviet doctrine.

Best part is that Desert Storm BTFO'd Russian tanks so hard, the Soviets renamed their upcoming T-72BM project to the T-90 because they realized that nobody but poor shitholes that couldn't afford anything better would want to touch the T-72 again.

Yeah, there is literally nothing special about the T-90. Its a T-72 with the compression cranked way up on the engine to handle the weight of the extra armor they integrated into the hull complete with the expected hit to engine lifetime and overall reliability, and last-gen commercial electronics from Europe they can no longer get their hands on.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

the cope thread is talking about how fake and gay the T-55 news is
Post in thread 'Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine' https://kiwifarms.net/threads/russian-special-military-operation-in-the-ukraine.150029/post-15666429
View attachment 4862440
but I guess only time will tell. it would be kinda funny to see a ww2 tank in Battle in the year 2023

Man, talk about coping. "I was told" - great source for a quality deboonking.
They probably determined it based on this bit:

25.09.19 would be ~4 years ago, but that's when this rail car was made. Nothing to indicate when the footage was taken.
The most unedited version of the video with these tanks I could find with the commentary of the author, which basically goes "Oh damn, would you look at that? It's a second echelon, there was one like that just before it". No indication when it was taken, but weather matches what we have currently. If someone can find the original source to analyze, would be nice.

The vatnik cope is that it's likely to be used "reasonably" as mobile artillery

They just don't wanna live under Russia.

You can find the few basket cases who does and is waiting for the "liberation", and for vatniks and russiaboos it's enough to justify the whole thing, nevermind that even these people often end up as Russian collateral.

 

[Melmac_Knight]

So does anybody actually believe Medvedev when he says Russia will produce 1500 tanks this year? It's worth noting that only around a thousand T-90s have actually been built by Russia, India has made almost as many T-90S variants as Russia has made T-90s in general.

they're probably gonna count refurbished tanks, BMP's, trucks, and other military vehicles just so they could reach that number and geat a fat bonu$
or fudge the numbers, but they are gonna get dat bonu$

remember it doesn't matter howmany exist in reality, it matters how many on paper they have

 

[draggs]

they're probably gonna count refurbished tanks, BMP's, trucks, and other military vehicles just so they could reach that number and geat a fat bonu$
or fudge the numbers, but they are gonna get dat bonu$

remember it doesn't matter howmany exist in reality, it matters how many on paper they have

The tractor factory in Magnitogorsk always overfulfills production norms by 400%, comrade

Always

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

Man, talk about coping. "I was told" - great source for a quality deboonking.
They probably determined it based on this bit:
View attachment 4864772
25.09.19 would be ~4 years ago, but that's when this rail car was made. Nothing to indicate when the footage was taken.
The most unedited version of the video with these tanks I could find with the commentary of the author, which basically goes "Oh damn, would you look at that? It's a second echelon, there was one like that just before it". No indication when it was taken, but weather matches what we have currently. If someone can find the original source to analyze, would be nice.

The vatnik cope is that it's likely to be used "reasonably" as mobile artillery

I can actually do better, this tweet was from Zoka, a Pro-Russian.

One of the railcars are from 2022, specifically made on October 14th 2022. So "The video is old!" argument is DOA.

EDIT: Also I found the specific railcar in the picture. It's one that's passing exactly 10 seconds in the first video.

 

[GatorAids]

Man, talk about coping. "I was told" - great source for a quality deboonking.
They probably determined it based on this bit:
View attachment 4864764
25.09.19 would be ~4 years ago, but that's when this rail car was made. Nothing to indicate when the footage was taken.
The most unedited version of the video with these tanks I could find with the commentary of the author, which basically goes "Oh damn, would you look at that? It's a second echelon, there was one like that just before it". No indication when it was taken, but weather matches what we have currently. If someone can find the original source to analyze, would be nice.

The vatnik cope is that it's likely to be used "reasonably" as mobile artillery

You can find the few basket cases who does and is waiting for the "liberation", and for vatniks and russiaboos it's enough to justify the whole thing, nevermind that even these people often end up as Russian collateral.

Don't you know? They obviously paint the current date on their train cars every single day. Are you telling me you don't re-register your car every single day so it is up to date?

God damn every day they reach new levels of retarded.

 

[Jewthulhu]

you want to tell me that THIS was how their "best units" performed?
View attachment 4863172
over 1:100 k/d ratio in vehicles
what a fucking disaster holy shit

Most of their units (conscripts lmao) on other fronts surrendered, at such volumes that it actually slowed down the coalition advance trying to process them all. 73 Easting was held by the Republican Guard which were professional soldiers who reported directly to Saddam and were at least somewhat battle-hardened by the Iran-Iraq war a few years before. In some sense, they were the "best" in that they actually fought back, but a lot of the performance could be directly traced to how behind the Russian equipment was.
Here's probably the best video on the battle.

And the big Russian cope was that the Iraqis were not using the REAL stuff. Just shitty export models. And also Arabs suck at war unlike Russian soldiers.

Much easier to stick the head in sand then admit the top of the line Soviet shit got absolutely mogged when it ran into American armor.

Export models had disadvantages, sure, but the shortcomings of the Iraqi equipment went in some ways beyond export vs native model. Coalition was able to cross miles of empty desert and attack from an angle the Iraqis weren't properly dug in to defend thanks to wide use of satnav, Russia is still taping import GPS' on their aircraft. Coalition was able to fight the first half of 73 Easting through a dust storm due to thermals, Russia only introduced thermals with the T-90 in '92 (TO1-KO1 BURAN). I will give them that the Iraqis used inferior ammo (3BM9, 245 mm at 2000 m), but I wonder what difference ammo would have made. Coalition would have probably taken a few more losses, but I doubt it'd be enough to change the outcome.

It's just like the cope would be if the Abrams and Leopard get absolutely shit on.
"Waah it's just the 1A5 export model from the 1840's!!!!"
"Waah its just untrained ukrainians operating the Abrams on a 3 week training course and not REAL tankers!!!"

It's all just a matter of perspective lol. It's a near-peer war. Shit happens.

Eh. I fully expect the Ukraine to lose at least a few of the M1A1s they're being shipped. Hell, even if they were getting A2 SEPv4s I'd still expect some losses. It's not invincible.
If they lost 340 of them though and only knocked out 1 franken-tank, I'd start to suspect something was wrong.

 

[Kaizer Ghidorah]

And also Arabs suck at war

to be fair that one is pretty demonstrably true (just look at Saudi Arabia in general or any one of the arab Israeli wars) but it doesn't protect Russian equipment from criticism either

 

[Cpt. Stud Beefpile]

The tractor factory in Magnitogorsk always overfulfills production norms by 400%, comrade

Always

"The enterprising German farmer had not taken at all kindly to the collective idea; he had quit the land in such large numbers that that fall there had been no one to harvest the crops. The government had pressed production on mechanical harvesters...

There was only one trouble. To be harvested by machine, the wheat had to be dry; a couple of days more sunshine were required than for hand reaping... It rained every day, right at the time of the harvest. And then suddenly, all over the country, posters appeared carrying this little verse:

Ohne Gott und Sonnen schein
Holen Wir Die Ernte ein
Without God and without sun
We will get the harvest done​

...It was a brazen duel between the new regime and God Himself. The rains continued, and the harvest did not get in. And now what did the government do? New signs appeared, along with announcements on the radio and advertisements in the newspaper.

“Don’t let anyone tell you there is a bread shortage. There is plenty of bread. This is another example of the victory of socialism over the forces of nature.”

Only there was no bread.

I myself went into grocery stores and found none. Even restaurants didn’t
have any."

"God's Smuggler", pp 124-125. Emphasis mine.

 

[Ghostse]

Bradleys have TOW missiles as well as the 25mm. Also, 73 Easting wasn't an Iraqi fighting retreat. It was their best units in a reverse slope ambush that failed due to Russian armor being shit compared to American and British armor.

And as an aside, Highway of Death was a different incident. HoD was the US Air Force fucking up the Iraqis retreating from Kuwait city down Highway 80.

The crews in the documentary would talk about Bradley performed before/after the subject of the documentary. They definitely were doing AC kills on T-55's, saving the TOWs for T-72s, but they never said if it was side/rear kills on the T-55/4's when they got Bush(master) whacked.

Note how he never actually posted anything to disprove the claim or anything concrete that would discredit the group making the claim. His argument goes:
>the footage is 4 years old t. trust me bro
>CIT is wrong because their articles have been reported on in the MSM
>CIT is wrong because they made a tweet saying information they post hasn't been verified for journalistic reasons (doesn't mean the information is false)
>CIT is wrong because the founder doesn't like Putin (HOW DARE HE)
>here's a shit meme demonstrating my lack of understanding of geopolitics and economics

Also holy shit patriots.win is literally Trumpreddit lmao. Really shows the class of intellect we're dealing with.

The mainstream media being wrong, gay and nakedly biased against Trump (and repeating clearly made up fan fiction) doesn't make Qanon's "plan" magically true.
Baghdad Bob saying the Americans have been driven back as tanks roll through the streets in the background doesn't make Colin Powel's WMD mobile labs presentation be true.
Russian propaganda easily being proven to be false doesn't mean Ukraine's own blatant progranda is magically true.

@Exterminatus
Regarding the old armor being shipped in: my bet is they're going largely be used as semi-static armored gun emplacements, integrated with all the trenches & tank barriers Russia has been building in depth, from Zaphorizia to south of Kherson.

In any case, those T-55s probably won't be moving around very much once offloaded & driven to their initial positions; and most probably won't be able to move under their own power for very long either, due to fuel shortages & the fact they're fucking ancient.

The T-55s on that train were promised that in exchange for 6 months service in Ukraine, they'd be sent to some tank sperg in the Outback.

I don't know if I'd call them front line tanks exactly but they'll likely be used to beef up Russia's line and possibly be used for support. If Ukraine does a big push this year as expected, they will be seeing armor-on-armor combat. While on a modern battlefield they are stupidly outclassed, outranged, and fuel hungry, a T-55 is still immune to small arms and sure the 100mm gun is under powered (and inaccurate) but I wouldn't want one shooting at me.

Also possible they will use them for mine detection. Russia's prisoners are getting an armored division, basically.

So does anybody actually believe Medvedev when he says Russia will produce 1500 tanks this year? It's worth noting that only around a thousand T-90s have actually been built by Russia, India has made almost as many T-90S variants as Russia has made T-90s in general.

Maybe, and I mean MAYBE, they could reach that number if they dedicate their time to refurbishing old ass T-72s that were rotting in some depot that have been cannibalized for spare parts and corruption money for decades to simply fight again, but not actually upgrade them.

Best part is that Desert Storm BTFO'd Russian tanks so hard, the Soviets renamed their upcoming T-72BM project to the T-90 because they realized that nobody but poor shitholes that couldn't afford anything better would want to touch the T-72 again.

They will almost certainly be counting refurbs on T-55s and T-62s. (bolts ERA bracket to T-62, doesn't attach ERA, "Tank Production increased comrade!")

 

[CuzinEd]

I just remembered I have Gunner Heat PC on Steam. It has a relatively realistic ballistics model. It also has an M2 and a T-55. I can actually test that out on the tank range in the game. They haven't put the T-62 in yet or the T-64. But I can test it on a T-72.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that a 25mm APFSDS, even the best DU round the Bradley has (which I doubt we'd just supply to the Ukes) is gonna be punching through 100mm of steel at a 60 degree angle, at least with any degree of reliability. The side armor and rear armor? Sure.

Publicly available information. Bradley's were penetrating T-55's in Iraq during ODS.

So much so that even the UN, which does not like the USA, has come to the same conclusion.


We're talking about tanks that are decades old and have been sitting outside the entire time, those hulls are gonna be weak as fuck. Also, a mobility kill is still a kill.

Even if the 25mm damages a track that's still good. A tank sitting still is pretty much dead.

I got the idea from actually looking into it lol

Bradleys taking out Iraqi T-55s with their autocannon and getting decent damage on Iraqi T-72s in the Gulf War is a simple fact. 30 years ago. If you think Russian T-55s taken out of decades of mothballing are gonna stand up to the challenge better, go ahead

I think there was pictures of T-55's with holes in the turrets from the 25mm on the M2.

The only purpose I can see the Russians bringing in the old T-54/55 tanks in is for patrol in Bakhmut when they finally end up taking it over. No way that they could sprint across muddy fields or be at all useful anywhere else.

Yeah, the vatniggers said the T-62's were going to be used by DPR and LPR separatist. They would only be used in the rear. It was just all cope. T-62's were found in the frontlines. There is proof of wrecked and captured T-62's. The Russians haven't had a tank in service that needed a loader for decades. Everything from the late 60's used an autoloader. I think the T-64 even had an autoloader. The Russians have to train people how to load a tanks main gun again.

I thought that was War Thunder's department.

It's a War Thunder thing. I never heard of it happening on the WoT forum. WoT is mostly played by people who like to gamble and believe they are actually winning and have skill. War Thunder has a kind of simulator vibe. It attracts different people.