Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Scale Smerch]

Doing some reading on the Czechoslovak Legion these past few weeks has given me the (un)ironic realization that the West has always been like this. For the uninitiated the Czechoslovak legion was ~50k Czechs and Slovaks who thanks to one Tomáš Masaryk single handily convinced the West to support both Czechoslovak and Yugoslav independence from Austro-Hungary. Circumstances led to these former Imperial soldiers winding up in Russia, which thanks to the Russian Revolution wound up occupying the entire breadth of Siberia between 1918-1920 and effectively becoming the biggest historical quirk you never heard of.

What makes them particularly special is the political history involving them. You see the French and British wanted to leverage the Legion into a second Eastern Front to combat the Germans, but did not want to use any of their own troops to do so - they expected the Legion to do all the fighting for them, give them their desires, and simply claim the credit. The result is as you can expect: the Legion was was forced back by Lenin's and Trotsky's Red Army, bled excessively for the Allies, and only got the compensation of independence years after Wilson browbeat London and Paris into granting it as a compromise. The entire modern history of the West's involvement in Russia is basically having "lesser" peoples suffer for them so Western leadership can pat themselves on the back, act like they put Russia in its place, and pretend they did a stupendous job.

And many still wonder why the average Russian does not trust a single thing to come out of the West's mouth. We're both to blame for the absolute clusterfuck going on right now.

 

[make_it_so]

Doing some reading on the Czechoslovak Legion these past few weeks has given me the (un)ironic realization that the West has always been like this. For the uninitiated the Czechoslovak legion was ~50k Czechs and Slovaks who thanks to one Tomáš Masaryk single handily convinced the West to support both Czechoslovak and Yugoslav independence from Austro-Hungary. Circumstances led to these former Imperial soldiers winding up in Russia, which thanks to the Russian Revolution wound up occupying the entire breadth of Siberia between 1918-1920 and effectively becoming the biggest historical quirk you never heard of.

What makes them particularly special is the political history involving them. You see the French and British wanted to leverage the Legion into a second Eastern Front to combat the Germans, but did not want to use any of their own troops to do so - they expected the Legion to do all the fighting for them, give them their desires, and simply claim the credit. The result is as you can expect: the Legion was was forced back by Lenin's and Trotsky's Red Army, bled excessively for the Allies, and only got the compensation of independence years after Wilson browbeat London and Paris into granting it as a compromise. The entire modern history of the West's involvement in Russia is basically having "lesser" peoples suffer for them so Western leadership can pat themselves on the back, act like they put Russia in its place, and pretend they did a stupendous job.

And many still wonder why the average Russian does not trust a single thing to come out of the West's mouth. We're both to blame for the absolute clusterfuck going on right now.

Another great result of the Czechoslovak Legion's adventures: to rescue them, the Allies had the Japanese occupy a sizable portion of Siberia. The Imperial Japanese being the Imperial Japanese of this time period, thought that this would mean they would be rewarded this region much like they were rewarded Germany's Pacific and Chinese holdings. When they weren't and got pressured to eventually withdraw, it became yet one more source of embitterment towards the Western powers that would eventually blow up in December 1941.

 

[102]

Warning: Gory - Recent drone video of grenades being dropped on UA troops, Seversk direction:

from /chug/:
Russians: Fly the Yak-42 ㅤㅤㅤㅤ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-42

Ukes: Fly the ACK-42%

Bonus: New Lancet vid

edit: fixed first videos to local archive

 

[mindlessobserver]

The US effectively hasn't fought a straight war in living memor

I have to point out Operation Desert Storm, and Operation Just Cause. I would say they are living memory because in my term of service I had sergeants who fought in both operations, and they were not stand off fights by any metrics, but fully mechanized industrial violence where in some of the battles US soldiers got close enough to punch mfers before they shot them. You also seem to assume they weren't "straight wars" simply by nature of the fact the USA smoked the enemy involved so thoroughly it wasn't fair.

This idea that the USA is unaware of the realities of mechanized warfare is a fallacy. It knows about it. The mistake was assuming it didn't need to worry about it again and needed to solely focus on asymmetric warfare. Trust me, US training doctrine is not so far removed from those fights in the early 90's as to be oblivious for how to do a proper tank charge.

Probably gonna get banned for pointing out the obvious, but Jesus Christ it has to be pointed out lest this thread get even more deluded.

Pic rel. Its the US Army using a shitty M113 as a battering ram on Meso Americans circa 1989

 

[E. Knee as Weapon - Cont.]

Yeah those stupid Russians are just too dumb to magically take a city with entrenched defenders hiding in buildings.

Unlike every other military in the world that has traditionally been able to eliminate a defending force from a city with no damage to infrastructure or civilian buildings.

Is there anywhere with a good explainer of modern doctrine? I really don't understand how a battle like Bakhmut plays out as long as it has.

I don' t mean that in an incredulous way; I literally don't know enough to begin piecing together an explanation.

 

[prolapsed_cranium]

I have to point out Operation Desert Storm, and Operation Just Cause. I would say they are living memory because in my term of service I had sergeants who fought in both operations, and they were not stand off fights by any metrics, but fully mechanized industrial violence where in some of the battles US soldiers got close enough to punch mfers before they shot them. You also seem to assume they weren't "straight wars" simply by nature of the fact the USA smoked the enemy involved so thoroughly it wasn't fair.

This idea that the USA is unaware of the realities of mechanized warfare is a fallacy. It knows about it. The mistake was assuming it didn't need to worry about it again and needed to solely focus on asymmetric warfare. Trust me, US training doctrine is not so far removed from those fights in the early 90's as to be oblivious for how to do a proper tank charge.

Probably gonna get banned for pointing out the obvious, but Jesus Christ it has to be pointed out lest this thread get even more deluded.

Pic rel. Its the US Army using a shitty M113 as a battering ram on Meso Americans circa 1989
View attachment 4951320

El oh el

Fighting a Drug Lord and some Khat addled Somalis doesn't prepare an army for neer peer combat.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Is there anywhere with a good explainer of modern doctrine? I really don't understand how a battle like Bakhmut plays out as long as it has.

I don' t mean that in an incredulous way; I literally don't know enough to begin piecing together an explanation.

The 2nd Battle of Falluja is an example of how to properly take a city. Step 1, establish air superiority, and then drop pamphlets telling the civilians to get the fuck out or die. Step 2, surround the city with Artillery. Step 3 pound the ever living shit out of it. Step 4, advance under fire with tanks and light infantry, with the tanks serving as a foreword fire base allowing the infantry to clear each building. If fire comes from any building on approach, destroy it with air power, and for good measure drop some artillery on the building too. The infantry should never have to actually shoot. They are there to simply draw fire and reveal positions for the air force to bomb. The tanks are there for them to take cover behind in the interim.

Repeat this process block by block in a methodical and absolutely ruthless fashion.

Russia's problem however is it does not even have artillery superiority around Bakhmut, let alone Air Superiority. The troops on the ground can't rely on immediate strikes because the jets can't get close and if the artillery fires they come under immediate counter fire. So stand off support is limited at best. This means the tanks can't be risked sent foreword as they would be destroyed by ATM's fired from the buildings that cannot be destroyed by airpower or artillery. So the Light Infantry is forced to do standard room clearing of every building under fire, leading to massive casualties

 

[make_it_so]

El oh el

Fighting a Drug Lord and some Khat addled Somalis doesn't prepare an army for neer peer combat.

Dude, he didn't even fucking mention Operation Gothic Serpent.

And Desert Storm was up against what was, at the time, the world's fourth largest army. Yeah, 40 days and nights of constant aerial bombardment softened the Iraqis up real good, but they were no pushoevers.

The sequel in 2003, admittedly, was a different story altogether.

 

[prolapsed_cranium]

Dude, he didn't even fucking mention Operation Gothic Serpent.

And Desert Storm was up against what was, at the time, the world's fourth largest army. Yeah, 40 days and nights of constant aerial bombardment softened the Iraqis up real good, but they were no pushoevers.

The sequel in 2003, admittedly, was a different story altogether.

Yes, he did.

 

[Corpun]

I unironically think that the Clintons basically started the hard decline of the US. Carter might’ve been an abject retard control freak with an inability to take blame, but he had some sense of intelligence and a friendly media. Bush might’ve been a glowie, but didn’t fuck up that hard. Even if you think it’s Uniparty Jews and Glowies running everything m, I think there is a faction represented hard by the Clintons.

What did the fucking Clinton’s have? In retrospect they had a lot of wars, aides being killed/ killings themselves, and bribe taking. They might’ve been involved in a drug ring in Arkansas.

I think their fuck-ups on Foreign Policy have lead to the US decaying into a a shell of what it was. I don’t think it was just Glowies being Glowies and bankers being bankers. I think it’s a certain faction that the Clinton’s effectively represent.
I really think that they really cultivated the rot. I think their NATO fuck ups and Hillary’s retardation as Secretary of State lead to most of this.

I think the rot is a lot older and deeper. The West has always seen Russia as something of a backwater, and that was part of the reason Peter the Great traveled across Europe in disguise for a decade. I won't get too into it but before his reforms, Russia was seen basically as some feudal backwater where people dressed bizzarely and had a very distinct version of Christianity. Some historians of the time even said the Russians were an asiatic/mongoloid peoples.

Peter the Great's aggressive westernization (And I do mean aggressive, he outlawed facial hair and you had to pay a tax to have beards for example) using his experiences traveling across Western Europe was a massive push to assert Russia as a great power. It's thanks to him that Russia became a Great power for about 150-200 years. The WWI happens, the commies take over, and you know the rest.

The west didn't forget it's view that Russia was a backwater, but now that they were ideologically enemies, it was far easier to make them villains. The rot you are talking about comes in around this time, but overall Western issues that we now all see are a couple decades older. I think it has accelerated around the time you bring up, because once the Soviets collapsed, Russia was treated like a conquered nation simply because the Union fell. NATO aggressively expanded and the US bribed and influenced Russian politics to get a patsy like Yeltsin in government.

After the USSR fell the West never wanted a Russia as an equal partner, they wanted a broken, corrupt, inefficient 'democracy' they could easily influence and plunder for resources. They thought Putin would be the next Yeltsin when they realized they could no longer back him without fears he might be overthrown (THe communists were insanely popular in the wake of Yeltsin being a total retard). Obviously, this failed, and I think the first sign of this was when Putin put down the Chechen separatists. Everything since has been Putin building up Russia and Western think tanks very angry. Everything Russia is now is essentially Putin's creation. I don't think he gets as much admiration as he should for scheming his way into power as a loyal puppet and forcing the oligarchs who backed him into submission or exile.

This conflict was a long time coming The rot set in bad with the USSR's death if only because those with influence in NATO and the US refused to let an old rivalry die with the nation they had it with, and were arrogant enough to think they can be the world police. The American Empire has become incredibly bloated since the USSR fell and the arrogance that belief created will cause the American Empire to collapse, kicking and screaming. The Ukraine War is just one of the many dominoes that are going to cause this and it's going to be a painful experience considering we've had this position since 1945. Everyone who is an enemy or is tacitly friendly with the US is circling around like vultures waiting to see what happens next.

I came across this tweet with a horrifying demographic pyramid potted plant of Ukraine.

View attachment 4941337

View attachment 4941341https://archive.ph/uhZCi

Wasted 30 minutes unsuccessfully trying to find the source of the graphic on The Times website, but it seems plausible with 8 million refugees and 6 figure KIA (out of pre-war population of 44 million).

I also have no idea how these globohomo bean counters are treating the liberated territories. If those people are still counted as Ukrainian, then this should look roughly 6 million worse than it already does.

Ukrainian demographics are worse than Russian ones at this rate. Absolutely insane NATO is letting an entire generation die for their schemes.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Dude, he didn't even fucking mention Operation Gothic Serpent.

I did briefly consider including Gothic Serpent anyway. The Battle of Mogadishu was a fiasco in the opening stages, but once the gloves came off it was a fucking slaughter for the Somalis as the US went in with APC's and Air Support. Over a thousand militant were killed to 18 Americans, of that number most were from the opening of the battle and the infamous Black Hawk Down incident.

It isn't really an example of mechanized warfare though as it was a reactionary/punitive airstrike campaign. Which the US did "win", if we call it that. But since the goal of the entire operation was feeding starving Somalis under a UN flag, there was no public will to actually fight a war over it. My Brigade Commander was actually a veteran of that battle. I believe he is the "Lieutenant" in the movie.

 

[PrimeRadiant]

The 2nd Battle of Falluja is an example of how to properly take a city. Step 1, establish air superiority, and then drop pamphlets telling the civilians to get the fuck out or die. Step 2, surround the city with Artillery. Step 3 pound the ever living shit out of it. Step 4, advance under fire with tanks and light infantry, with the tanks serving as a foreword fire base allowing the infantry to clear each building. If fire comes from any building on approach, destroy it with air power, and for good measure drop some artillery on the building too. The infantry should never have to actually shoot. They are there to simply draw fire and reveal positions for the air force to bomb. The tanks are there for them to take cover behind in the interim.

Repeat this process block by block in a methodical and absolutely ruthless fashion.

Russia's problem however is it does not even have artillery superiority around Bakhmut, let alone Air Superiority. The troops on the ground can't rely on immediate strikes because the jets can't get close and if the artillery fires they come under immediate counter fire. So stand off support is limited at best. This means the tanks can't be risked sent foreword as they would be destroyed by ATM's fired from the buildings that cannot be destroyed by airpower or artillery. So the Light Infantry is forced to do standard room clearing of every building under fire, leading to massive casualties

How would Fallujah have progressed if the Arabs had satellite intel, drones, lots of good SAMs and modern artillery?

 

[mindlessobserver]

How would Fallujah have progressed if the Arabs had satellite intel, drones, lots of good SAMs and modern artillery?

Rather poorly I expect. You can't take a city easily without air and artillery superiority.

 

[Rubick]

Dude, he didn't even fucking mention Operation Gothic Serpent.

And Desert Storm was up against what was, at the time, the world's fourth largest army. Yeah, 40 days and nights of constant aerial bombardment softened the Iraqis up real good, but they were no pushoevers.

The sequel in 2003, admittedly, was a different story altogether.

Desert storm is not impressive at all.

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/russia...-in-the-ukraine.150029/page-188#post-15699072

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Rather poorly I expect. You can't take a city easily without air and artillery superiority.

>TFW you take your own argument behind the barn and put a bullet in its head

I mean, you can say that we know what we're doing in a near-peer conflict, but the proof is in the pudding- and in Ukraine, the pudding is pink mist. As it turns out, massacring tanks with warthogs is not, in fact, a peer conflict.

 

[mindlessobserver]

you littler


Desert storm is not impressive at all.

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/russia...-in-the-ukraine.150029/page-188#post-15699072

You are missing the air power component. Its the eternal joke about the American Army about how it doesn't fight like real men because it relies so much on air power, but the meme is true in the sense the US Army does rely on Air Power. All US mechanized warfare doctrine assumes air superiority, or at least, near superiority for the purposes of the operation. The joke amongst the army artillery is that they exist to clear the sky for the air force. Its why US Artillery focuses so much on range and precision. Its purpose is not to destroy grid squares. Its to destroy SAM units and air defense command emplacements so the Air Force can then swoop in and rain death from above.

The reason so many countries seem to suck at using US equipment and training is because they don't have a competent air force to back it up.

 

[Rubick]

You are missing the air power component. Its the eternal joke about the American Army about how it doesn't fight like real men because it relies so much on air power, but the meme is true in the sense the US Army does rely on Air Power. All US mechanized warfare doctrine assumes air superiority, or at least, near superiority for the purposes of the operation. The joke amongst the army artillery is that they exist to clear the sky for the air force. Its why US Artillery focuses so much on range and precision. Its purpose is not to destroy grid squares. Its to destroy SAM units and air defense command emplacements so the Air Force can then swoop in and rain death from above.

The reason so many countries seem to suck at using US equipment and training is because they don't have a competent air force to back it up.

You clearly didn't read my post.

You could have literally given Iraqis NATO equipment and Americans Iraqi equipment the result would not have been any different by much. Iraqis simply put were a joke.

 

[01169]

Poland was proclaimed as a princedom in 966 by Mieszko the first. It became a kingdom in 1025. Since then, it was Poland.

Bro...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany

 

[Male Idiot]

Didn't Israel oy vey the entire arab world with like 6 mortars? Even if we agree that an IDF Supermensugen is worth 50 mutts, it is still not a glowing endorsement for kebab kombat ability.

Russia is not at its peak, but it was the absolute rapemachine that beat the best drilled, most disciplined, smartest lead army in the world ever, and reduced half of Europe to the 19th century by burning it to dust and first put a man in space.

Comparing them to kebabs and senor cartel el cokes is a mistake. It is like comparing syphilis and aids to rabies. Even if we grant that the US has the best air force, the Russians aren't bad enough to compare with the other two in that sector. Saddam also did not want to deploy the around 100 working fighters he had. The Russians have like ten times more at least, and the Americans thirty times more, though it mostly is the F-16, but hey, it is an old reliable one.


And you know the kicker? Most well funded of European nations are closer to Iraq then Ruskies or Burgers in terms of an air force. Uk has around 200, Romania has 30, half of them F16s, the rest old MIGs. Hungary has 12. Unless Uncle Joe sends over a LOT of his old F-16s to eastern europe, eastern european air forces will be about as useful as a wet paperbag protecting the popcorn from Nickocado Avocado.

If you switched out the modern aircrafts to the old WW2 air fleets, it would propably do just as well due to just how ridiculously small number of modern planes europoors have.

 

[Fatniggo1488]

Footage of a wounded Ukrainian who was abandoned by his "colleague". He noticed an unmanned aerial vehicle that was circling nearby and was monitoring. When the drone came closer, the wounded Ukrainian soldier began to show with gestures that he needed immediate emergency help.

Тяжелораненый боец ВСУ попросил о помощи оператора российского дрона | Ghostarchive

ghostarchive.org

Russian come to the aid of the Ukrainian, although this is not shown in the video footage. They reported that they evacuated him from the battlefield and gave medical service.




Slow grind along with other areas.

Meanwhile Ukrainians have been been gathering forces in Slavyansk, Chasov Yar, Konstantinovka and Dniepro.

They haven't done much however besides costly recce and probing actions and sending warm bodies from Chasov Yar, etc, towards a slaughter in their effort to hold Russians back.

Lol he's going to lose that leg most likely. I'm assuming that they didn't find him immediately after tourniquet was applied, and the longer those stay on, the more likely loss of limb is.