Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Atomic Heart
Videogames were invented in the West. Genre and many game mechanics they're aping were invented by the West. Engine they're using is Western.
I've seen a lot of vatniks jerk each other off over this "all-Russian masterpiece", but it's not all-Russian. Even developers wanted to distance themselves from Russia just so they could sell it.

I don't hold any of it against the developers, mind you. Gamedev is by nature iterative. It's just that Russia hardly has anything of its own these days that's of any worth, culturally speaking.
We grew up watching American movies and playing American games, loving American snacks and so on. It was good, and it inspired a lot of people to do great things in turn. Vatniks just can't face the reality of being behind someone else on something, specifically the West. And instead of some sort of healthy competitive spirit, all they have is corrosive envy. Their idea of superiority is putting down others, like a bully.

They're in no position to put down US, so they crafted a strawman out of Ukraine and are beating the shit out of it, telling themselves it's actually America.
It's way more than that. The helmet looks like an M35 or M42 Stahlhelm. It has the SS runes on it. They made the Abrams panzer grey.

The Russians are such fucking Boomers. Muh ebil Nazis. LOL
I've seen American "anti-war" cryptovatniks mention "American boomers" quite a few times, referring to Cold War mentality I presume, and that it's supposedly what's driving anti-Russian sentiment, implying Russia isn't actually the bad guy here and it's just all in their head.
From what I understand though, American society mostly moved on from it and doesn't dwell on that time, consumed by its present issues. But I know for sure that America still lives rent-free in the heads of vatniks (vast chunk of older Russians who grew up in USSR, and part of younger generation they managed to brainwash). So that statement about American boomers is really fucking ironic.
The cult of "Great Patriotic War" deliberately strives to ensure that people keep living in the past. There's more to be said on that, but I'm out of time for now.
 
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It has been confirmed since that the breakdown was not in fact a breakdown. A driver (who i can only assume was unfamiliar with the tank) had somehow engaged the handbreak without noticing and the crew only realized this when they tried to tow it away only for the thing to refuse to move.
Still choosing a callow youth who isn't a confident driver seems an astonishing error for a military parade, altho screw ups with them are a worldwide thing. Maybe only in Best Korea might they be flawless first time not wanting a trip to a labor camp for him, wife, children and any descendants. Still the T-14 isn't in serial production and probably won't be for a long time yet given supplier and some developmental issues.
 
They're in no position to put down US, so they crafted a strawman out of Ukraine and are beating the shit out of it, telling themselves it's actually America.
For those Kiwis unaware, right about the year 1980 the US stopped seriously worrying itself over anything but nukes when it came to dealing with the USSR, such was the sheer technological gap... which has not improved at all since in Russia's favor. Russia probably had the edge in the 50's, but the Western economy and educational base pushed us ahead in terms of technology but behind in sheer output by the 1960s, and sadly for the Russians they were never able to come up with something that would let them mass-produce whatever came out of their R&D labs, and so not just the technological gap but more importantly the production gap grew year by year as the stuff that came out of Russian factories as the best they could mass-produce just never, ever matched what the West could do. The biggest example is the 125mm cannon. Idiots and vatniks love to hype up its sheer size and MUH SMOOTHBORE, but in reality a steel sabot is going to struggle beat a solid chunk of tungsten, even one that's only fired out of a 105mm rifled cannon. Now yes, firing tungsten ammo is like shoving money down your tank barrel, but uh... nobody has ever accused the West of being poor.

That is of course not getting into air power, which saw Viktor Belenko bailing once he realized the Red Air Force was a three-ring circus instead of a mere clown show, and as to naval forces they're the only nation that has lost nuclear submarines, supposedly the pride of the Red Navy, to spontaneous onboard fires.

This is an interesting read into some of the background to Soviet technological development. And perhaps the most damning part of it:
In November of 1964, another American delegation was allowed a glimpse into the state of Soviet computing, although the Cuban Missile Crisis and other recent conflicts meant that their visit was much shorter and more restricted than the one of five and a half years earlier. Regardless, the Americans weren’t terribly impressed by the factory they were shown. It was producing computers at the rate of about seven or eight per month, and the visitors estimated its products to be roughly on par with an IBM 704 — a model that IBM had retired four years before. It was going to be damnably hard to realize the Soviet cybernetic dream with this trickle of obsolete machines; estimates were that about 1000 computers were currently operational in the Soviet Union, as compared to 30,000 in the United States. The Soviets were still struggling to complete the changeover from first-generation computer hardware, characterized by its reliance on vacuum tubes, to the transistor-based second generation. The Americans had accomplished this changeover years before; indeed, they were well on their way to an integrated-circuit-based third generation. Looking at a Soviet transistor, the delegation said it was roughly equivalent to an American version of same from 1957.
This is the 704, by the way. A 1954 vacuum tube design, and that was the best the Soviets could "mass produce" at eight per month ten years after its introduction.
 
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Russia probably had the edge in the 50's,

The USSR was military a near-peer in in the 50s to the early/mid 60s and then fell to shit as the tech they looted from the nazis and stole from the west became obsolete and internal politics proceeded to smother any true innovation.
Their navy was a joke. They only reason they were a threat was because of the sheer square footage of Russia and they were immediately adjacent to Europe.

Contrast this with the US being an entire ocean away and being considered the primary counter weight. Dwell on that for a minute.

But then I saw they made the Abrams panzer grau/gray.
And put an Iron Cross on it.
 
I mean, why even bother talking about tanks and jets and computers? There's that famous moment where Yeltsin ducked inside a ratty 1989 supermarket to see how the American pleb actually lived and was flabbergasted and gobsmacked by the sheer variety of pointless shit on offer. He thought it was a big Potemkin show for him, but everyone was so earnest and confused by Mr. Russia coming to buy pudding pops that the vatnik scales fell from his eyes.

But it does nothing to point anything out, how the Abrams or the F-15 or the Nimitz are all basically space alien technology, about how even after our utter neutering by NAFTA and its consequences we can still casually, idly outproduce Russia, about how the average Amerimutt fed entirely on goyslop from birth is still taller, stronger, and smarter than the average pureblood Slav. A vatnik will insist that Russia stronk, even if they're front and center at a NATO military parade through Red Square for the glory of newly appointed Tsar Obama. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, and you especially can't reason with the utterly demoralized.
 
He thought it was a big Potemkin show for him
I hate too "akshooully" here, but I recall Yeltsin's visit to that store being completely impromptu, specifically because of how they (the USSR) did Potemkin shit to foreign dignitaries and thought the US would do the same thing to him. One shocking revelation for him, was learning that the American mother needed only do her grocery shopping once per week. The Ruski mat would need to go every day, because the items she wanted/needed may or may not be there. For her, shopping was a roll of the dice.
 
I hate too "akshooully" here, but I recall Yeltsin's visit to that store being completely impromptu, specifically because of how they (the USSR) did Potemkin shit to foreign dignitaries and thought the US would do the same thing to him. One shocking revelation for him, was learning that the American mother needed only do her grocery shopping once per week. The Ruski mat would need to go every day, because the items she wanted/needed may or may not be there. For her, shopping was a roll of the dice.

He literally demanded they let him go in, and when he saw it he accused them of putting him on and it took a while of people saying "lol no this is actually kinda a shitty place by our standards" till he believed them. I think he still went to another place at his next stop on the tour. Also he was legit mesmerized by pudding pops or jello or some shit like that, some utter trash dessert novelty product that was nothing to everyone there but him.

Also all the meat and bread and fish and dairy and vegetables and fruit. Just everything a person could want, and we throw most of it away because we have so much that no one could possibly go through it all. This is what killed the USSR, not nukes or jets or any of Kissinger's black magic rituals, just sheer inconceivable abundance to the point where our poorest are our fattest.
 
Also all the meat and bread and fish and dairy and vegetables and fruit. Just everything a person could want, and we throw most of it away because we have so much that no one could possibly go through it all. This is what killed the USSR, not nukes or jets or any of Kissinger's black magic rituals, just sheer inconceivable abundance to the point where our poorest are our fattest.
I think the biggest thing that underscores the massive change since the cold war is if you are parenting correctly you NEVER force a kid to finish off their plate of food. In Granpaw's day this is an unforgivable sin. Food is expensive and can become scarce. If something is put in front of you, you eat it and Kids were literally not allowed to leave the table until they had done so.

Now food is just so cheap and ubiquitous you have to prevent kids from overeating, so the training goes in reverse. You clean up the plate when they say they are done so they don't learn to over eat.
 
The USSR was military a near-peer in in the 50s to the early/mid 60s and then fell to shit as the tech they looted from the nazis and stole from the west became obsolete and internal politics proceeded to smother any true innovation.
Pretty much. The Soviets actually accomplished a lot technologically and economically during the 1950s and 1960s, but then made a bunch of awful decisions rolling back the economic reforms and other policy decisions made in the early 1960s.

Especially the decision to discontinue large scale development and investment in computer technology really harmed them as the complexity of the planned economy became increasing unmanageable as it demanded more sophisticated technology.

In general, I think the Soviet system was inherently doomed but some different decisions during this period could have led to a much softer Chinese-style transition to market systems. The entire system was just too broken to fix by the Perestroika era.
 
The USSR was military a near-peer in in the 50s to the early/mid 60s and then fell to shit as the tech they looted from the nazis and stole from the west became obsolete and internal politics proceeded to smother any true innovation.
Their navy was a joke. They only reason they were a threat was because of the sheer square footage of Russia and they were immediately adjacent to Europe.
The final nail in the coffin probably came around the late 70s when the first Leo 2 entered service in the German Army and Muricans produced a decent amount of TOWs and F-16s/15s compared with increasing capabilities in conventional cruise missiles. Soviets had the best chance in winning a conventional war in the 60s and maybe in the early 70s when the West was depressed over the outcome of Vietnam and the financial impact of the oil crisis. 1970 until 1975 was pretty much the only time period when the Eastern Bloc enjoyed a halfway decent standard of life. By the mid 80s it was completely ova' with unlimited American tax dollars flowing into projects like the B2, ICBMs and with the main meat shield of NATO West Germany deploying over 2.000 Leo 2 MBTs (quite unkown fact, that the German Army didn't sucked completely ass at one point in history) plus the Soviet economy going highspeed down towards the complete shitshow of the early 90s.
 
Soviets had the best chance in winning a conventional war in the 60s and maybe in the early 70s when the West was depressed over the outcome of Vietnam and the financial impact of the oil crisis.
That's one big reason why Nixon went to China in 1972. The Sino-Soviet Split was really helpful happening when it did.
1970 until 1975 was pretty much the only time period when the Eastern Bloc enjoyed a halfway decent standard of life.
Pretty much. 1953-1975 was the "good period" for the Soviet Union itself, not the least thanks to rapid reconstruction courtesy of the Eastern Bloc. Khrushchev also accomplished a lot in terms of building housing, infrastructure and producing more consumer goods which helped the economy grow at around 6-7% per year during the 1950s.

The USSR peaked at around 70% of the US' GDP in the early 1970s. In terms of objective quality and competitiveness it wasn't nearly on the same level but the Soviets had an advanced industrial base that could produce what they needed when they needed it.
 
Would anyone like to discuss why Russia has so many different body armors in use currently? I'm not talking about Modul or the weird cyre clones that pop up with russian PMCs as those are understandable. But I just don't get why there are such variances between who gets 6B23 and 6B45. I've also seen 6B13 used and 6B12. Those are a bit rarer but you still see it, 6B12 isn't even digital flora but standard flora from the 90s. What the fuck is up with the plate designs too?
 
That's one big reason why Nixon went to China in 1972. The Sino-Soviet Split was really helpful happening when it did.

Pretty much. 1953-1975 was the "good period" for the Soviet Union itself, not the least thanks to rapid reconstruction courtesy of the Eastern Bloc. Khrushchev also accomplished a lot in terms of building housing, infrastructure and producing more consumer goods which helped the economy grow at around 6-7% per year during the 1950s.

The USSR peaked at around 70% of the US' GDP in the early 1970s. In terms of objective quality and competitiveness it wasn't nearly on the same level but the Soviets had an advanced industrial base that could produce what they needed when they needed it.
The most successful part of modern Russia's propaganda regarding the Soviet Union is how 'Gorbachev ruined everything!' Acting like he didn't inherit a sinking ship thanks to Brezhnev and his stupid ass being in charge for two decades and the two guys who both only stuck around for about a year each.

That's not to say Gorbachev is blameless in the collapse of the Soviet Union, but Brezhnev fucked up so badly it would take a herculean effort to keep it afloat in the long term by 1985 when Gorbachev was put in charge.
 
Would anyone like to discuss why Russia has so many different body armors in use currently? I'm not talking about Modul or the weird cyre clones that pop up with russian PMCs as those are understandable. But I just don't get why there are such variances between who gets 6B23 and 6B45. I've also seen 6B13 used and 6B12. Those are a bit rarer but you still see it, 6B12 isn't even digital flora but standard flora from the 90s. What the fuck is up with the plate designs too?
If we are being charitable it's probably because alot of the Mobiks have been raised on a regional level and the equipment they get are what that particular region has on hand.
 
Would anyone like to discuss why Russia has so many different body armors in use currently? I'm not talking about Modul or the weird cyre clones that pop up with russian PMCs as those are understandable. But I just don't get why there are such variances between who gets 6B23 and 6B45. I've also seen 6B13 used and 6B12. Those are a bit rarer but you still see it, 6B12 isn't even digital flora but standard flora from the 90s. What the fuck is up with the plate designs too?
From what I understand Russia has a few issues including, branches and units wanting some unicorn gear to distinguish themselves from their peers, several manufacturers that need to stay open to provide jobs getting simultaneous contracts and tons of legacy shit from the 1990s being issued due to mass theft hitting the more modern gear. There's already plenty of memes of cosplayers and milsim airsoft kids buying gear by the pallet due to it being cheaper to buy legit stolen Russian gear than reproduction gear for several years.
 
The USSR never had a technological edge except for about a year in the spess ress

At the same time Mutts were freaking out about the "missile gap," Moscow had FOUR liquid fueled ICBMs while the US had hundreds of solid fueled Minutemen missiles that could be launched in minutes because you could put the fuel in and leave them be, ready to go. Soviet rockets of the time had to be left empty, because you can't put liquid fuel in a rocket and leave it sitting there for very long. You have to launch soon after fueling or bad stuff happens. And it took HOURS to fill up a liquid fueled Soviet ICBM
 
The USSR never had a technological edge except for about a year in the spess ress

At the same time Mutts were freaking out about the "missile gap," Moscow had FOUR liquid fueled ICBMs while the US had hundreds of solid fueled Minutemen missiles that could be launched in minutes because you could put the fuel in and leave them be, ready to go. Soviet rockets of the time had to be left empty, because you can't put liquid fuel in a rocket and leave it sitting there for very long. You have to launch soon after fueling or bad stuff happens. And it took HOURS to fill up a liquid fueled Soviet ICBM
This is an issue with the Chinese Dong Feng-11 ICBM as well. At the moment the Chinese nuclear arsenal is a joke compared to the US.
 
Ukraine’s Azov brigade races to rebuild ahead of fateful fight.
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KYIV, Ukraine — The Azov brigade, hailed by Ukrainians for its tenacity during Russia’s siege of Mariupol, is scrambling to rebuild from heavy combat losses as it seeks to play a muscular role in Ukraine’s next major assault.The high-profile unit is hoping to recruit 6,500 new fighters who will provide restored combat heft even as its leaders push for the return of more than 1,000 brigade troops who remain in Russia as prisoners of war.
“We are ready to liberate territory,” Maj. Bohdan “Tavr” Krotevych, who is the brigade’s interim commander and is leading the rebuilding effort after his release from Russian captivity in the fall, said in an interview.

The Ukrainian government has designated Azov, which recently absorbed other elements of the country’s National Guard, as one of six “offensive brigades” that will help spearhead Ukraine’s attempt to recapture Russian-occupied areas.
After months of largely static front lines, the spring fighting season will be crucial as Ukraine aims to prove that it can hold out against Russia and is still worthy of support from outside backers who have poured billions of dollars’ worth of weaponry into the fight.
Brigade leaders are also seeking to move past the controversy surrounding Azov’s far-right roots, which has resulted in the unit being barred from receiving Western weapons, potentially curtailing its abilities.

The newest recruits are drawn to Azov not for the ultranationalist ideology of its origins but for its proven combat skill, brigade leaders say.

“It is a name that, thanks to the defense of Mariupol, became known to the world,” a 28-year-old master sergeant, who goes by the call sign Maslo, said at a recent training session outside Kyiv. “It was known in a certain negative way,” Maslo added. “Now it is in a positive way because what we do works … The recruits coming to us understand that.”

Azov rose to prominence after Russian President Vladimir Putin’s illegal seizure of Crimea in 2014, as Ukraine’s ill-equipped military struggled to fight back against Russian-backed separatists in the eastern Donbas region. Azov, then a volunteer formation, had a key role in defending the strategic city of Mariupol. The unit was incorporated into Ukraine’s National Guard later that year.

After Russia’s February 2022 invasion, hundreds of Azov fighters held out for weeks beneath Mariupol’s Azovstal steel plant, along with stranded civilians. They persisted without adequate food and medicine amid a massive Russian bombing campaign, which elevated Azov and other Mariupol defenders to what Ukraine’s military command called “heroes of our time.”

In May, hundreds of wounded troops were evacuated. A few days later, military commanders ordered the remaining Azovstal troops to surrender, ending the siege.

Krotevych, who was among some 900 captured Azov fighters, spent the initial days as a prisoner of war at Olenivka, a filtration center in Russian-controlled Donetsk region, where several months later dozens of Azov fighters were killed in an attack Russia and Ukraine blamed on each other.

Krotevych spent the next four months in solitary confinement near Moscow, until he was released in September as part of a major prisoner swap brokered by Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Under that deal, 215 Ukrainians, including more than 100 Azov fighters, and a group of foreign nationals were released in exchange for Viktor Medvedchuk, a pro-Kremlin Ukrainian opposition politician, as well as Russian fighters.

Two weeks after his return to Ukraine, Krotevych returned to the unit.

While most of the released POWS returned to the unit, over 1,000 Azov personnel, including fighters absorbed from another brigade, remain imprisoned in Russia. They represent about a fifth of the roughly 6,000 Ukrainians now being held there as POWs, Krotevych said.

Unit leaders have unsuccessfully advocated more exchanges. “I came to the conclusion that the fastest way to release our prisoners is to take more Russian soldiers prisoner, and to end this war with our victory,” Krotevych said.

In Kyiv, a massive banner hanging on Khreshchatyk Street in the city’s center that reads “Free Azovstal defenders” is a testament to the feelings of many Ukrainians. Yet the unit’s conduct against Russia has not entirely eclipsed the controversy around its ultranationalist history and links to figures who have espoused xenophobic and racist views.

Azov leaders have denied allegations of fascism and racism.

Still, Azov has long featured in messaging by Putin and other Russian leaders about their goal of “de-Nazifying” the country. In 2022, Russia’s top court officially designated Azov a terrorist group.

Krotevych said the unit has no political ambitions and conducts investigations into any cases of far-right extremism it identifies. “As a military unit, we share the position of the state and the government,” he said.

Krotevych said that Russia had labeled all of those who have taken up arms to defend Ukraine as dangerous “nationalists.”

Michael Colborne, who wrote a book about the Azov movement and leads Bellingcat’s work on the global far right, said the unit’s focus appears to have shifted over time from ideology to military effectiveness.

He said that any remaining far-right elements within Azov probably would continue to be “diluted” as the unit grows and that the issue had become less important as Ukraine confronts an existential threat. “In Ukraine, the term nationalist or patriot describes a heck of a lot of people right now,” Colborne said.
Earlier this year, Meta, the parent company for Facebook, removed Azov from a list of dangerous individuals and organizations, citing a distinction between the military group and the political movement.

Despite Azov’s apparent evolution, it receives virtually no weaponry from Western nations including the United States.

Recent U.S. laws prohibit the provision of “arms, training or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.” The measures come as lawmakers in both parties call for proper oversight of the huge amount of aid going to Ukraine.

A State Department spokesperson, who spoke on the condition of anonymity under rules set by the department, said the recent prohibitions had no practical effect because the Azov Battalion — which the department described as a nonstate “militia group” — has not existed in more than five years.

Azov now “is a different unit,” the spokesperson said. However, he added: “Ukraine has agreed not to direct U.S. support to any identified units of concern” such as Azov.

Sarah Harrison, a former Pentagon lawyer now at the International Crisis Group, said the State Department was being “too cute by half” in drawing a distinction between Azov’s paramilitary past and its current status. But Harrison also said that lawmakers should have been more precise given that they clearly did not intend to single out a unit that no longer exists.
One 21-year-old Azov recruit from the western city of Ternopil, who under brigade rules was not permitted to give his name, said he had waited months for a chance to join the brigade. The recruit, speaking at the training session, described the controversy over Azov’s roots as an “overblown story.”
“Probably the most motivated people come here,” he said. “I can be sure that my comrade-in-arms, he will be able to cover me, protect me. And I will do the same.”
Maslo, who was also captured by Russia last year and spent a month in the hospital recovering from injuries he suffered, said Azov’s resourcefulness could help compensate for its lack of advanced weaponry.
Azov, he said, “will invent something out of nothing.”


Unit leaders say recruitment is going well but declined to disclose precise numbers. Fully achieving those goals may be difficult more than a year into the fight, after Ukraine’s military has taken heavy losses.
“The majority would assume that the war will end quickly or somebody else will win it for us. This didn’t happen,” Krotevych said. “So, we’re trying to explain to the civilian population of the country that we need them to help us liberate territories.”
Asked about the coming offensive, Krotevych cited the First Russian-Chechen War, when Chechen forces adopted a strategy of capturing small Russian towns to use as leverage to recover Russian-held areas. He suggested Ukraine may do the same.
He said that Azov would draw on the ordeals of 2022 in future fighting. “Our Azovstal experience tells us that there are no situations with no way out,” he said.
 
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