Western Animation - Discuss American, Canadian, and European cartoons here (or just bitch about wokeshit, I guess)

I hated that scene in the movie cause it just seemed like legitimising mental illness as something normal or positive
The problem is trying to pretend it's a mature film,
I mean, is it really? The whole thing is still filled with jokes and literally has an entire character centered around idiotic humor and being a plot device for the main duo (can't let the kids get bored by the themes after all), and the only moments I can think of where it really "takes itself seriously" are the genuinely emotional parts like the panic attacks (which I think are just one way of showing how prevalent this threat seems to Puss, as well as reinforcing that he's not letting himself confront it in a healthy way so it all just spills out when he thinks about it for even a moment) which is just par for the course for any movie.

It's mostly the retards foaming at the mouth (over the fact that a film not for mature audiences showed a panic attack at all) that're claiming it's "serious" and "mature", which is... really dumb. Like come on, this is still a Shrek spin-off with a talking chihuahua and a comically evil villain, it really isn't the next Hunchback or anything. It even has a mid-credits stinger to set up that stupid Shrek MCU equivalent just to make sure you realize it's not important.
And the movie's hardly "legitimizing" mental illness by showing it- it's just using a symptom of illnesses like anxiety as a plot device because it fits (and the writers likely have experience with it). If it was one of like 5 recent movies with an explicitly positive or "normalizing" slant when regarding this kind of stuff I'd agree, but as far as I can tell it's an outlier in a sea of many movies without this kind of stuff and that's why it's getting attention in the first place.

What I will say is interesting, though, is that the film isn't as incredibly jokey as its Shrek predecessor. It kind of plays the fairy-tale aspect of itself pretty straight with a dash of humor instead of just taking a giant shit on the formula and laughing. It's still very jokey, mind you (see: retarded chihuahua, most of the villain's lines and motivation, every background character ever, etc), but not nearly as much as before. I'm conflicted as to whether that's just because it's a Puss in Boots film and not Shrek, since I can remember the original being played somewhat straight too, or whether this is Dreamworks once again trying to become the antithesis of Disney (mainly supported by the Ariel villain in Ruby) and doing so by taking itself somewhat seriously after Disney's started making a joke of itself. :thinking:
 
Disney's started making a joke of itself. :thinking:
It really makes you think that Shrek (and especially DreamWorks as a company) started off by pissing off the establishment such as Disney only to later become the establishment. Like how The Simpsons poke fun of the establishing idea of cliche'd sitcoms such as Saved by the Bell, Full House, Family Matters and The Cosby Show only to find themselves become the establishment, as audiences turn their heads to other animated sitcoms such as Beavis & Butthead, Aqua Teen, Family Guy and South Park.
 
It really makes you think that Shrek (and especially DreamWorks as a company) started off by pissing off the establishment such as Disney only to later become the establishment. Like how The Simpsons poke fun of the establishing idea of cliche'd sitcoms such as Saved by the Bell, Full House, Family Matters and The Cosby Show only to find themselves become the establishment, as audiences turn their heads to other animated sitcoms such as Beavis & Butthead, Aqua Teen, Family Guy and South Park.
I mean, not really. This is what happens with every single revolutionary, especially if they succeed. You mentioned the Simpsons but there's also stuff like Rock and Roll in the 50s, the shit ton of political revolutions coming from the World Wars (notably Nazis and Commies in Germany and Russia respectively, as well as other countries), the hippy/gay rights movements, etc etc etc etc.
Every parody eventually becomes parodied, and so the cycle repeats. This is probably the first time in a while (if ever) a legitimate, outright parody is now becoming sincere (since usually it was just the parody becoming the norm, not the parody un-parodying what it used to), but it's at a time when every other piece of media is now self-indulging on parody.

...hopefully that's half-coherent. TL;DR, this is another step in a usual cycle of rebels becoming the establishment- it's just more interesting because for once the rebels are actually becoming more sincere and played straight as opposed to doubling down on their parody
people born before the new millennium: please let me know if i'm just being retarded and missing out on an example of parody turning to sincerity to combat a norm of parody from the 1920s or something. I was considering mentioning Chaplin being overtaken by talkies, but I don't really think normal comedy counts as "parody" and I really don't know enough about that era to comment
 
I mean, not really. This is what happens with every single revolutionary, especially if they succeed. You mentioned the Simpsons but there's also stuff like Rock and Roll in the 50s, the shit ton of political revolutions coming from the World Wars (notably Nazis and Commies in Germany and Russia respectively, as well as other countries), the hippy/gay rights movements, etc etc etc etc.
Every parody eventually becomes parodied, and so the cycle repeats. This is probably the first time in a while (if ever) a legitimate, outright parody is now becoming sincere (since usually it was just the parody becoming the norm, not the parody un-parodying what it used to), but it's at a time when every other piece of media is now self-indulging on parody.

...hopefully that's half-coherent. TL;DR, this is another step in a usual cycle of rebels becoming the establishment- it's just more interesting because for once the rebels are actually becoming more sincere and played straight as opposed to doubling down on their parody
people born before the new millennium: please let me know if i'm just being retarded and missing out on an example of parody turning to sincerity to combat a norm of parody from the 1920s or something. I was considering mentioning Chaplin being overtaken by talkies, but I don't really think normal comedy counts as "parody" and I really don't know enough about that era to comment
That was the point I was trying to make here, yet you clearly missed it. You see, Simpsons started out as making fun of everyone and everything, being way more satirical than any other show that came out at the time. But by the 2000s, they've gotten worse and BECAME the establishment by being the same tried and true sitcom as the ones the show was destroying in the first place. Like how Shrek 1 & 2 were poking fun at the same exact cliche'd shit from Disney and even the culture surrounding it, only for the Shrek series to become the establishment.
 
That was the point I was trying to make here, yet you clearly missed it. You see, Simpsons started out as making fun of everyone and everything, being way more satirical than any other show that came out at the time. But by the 2000s, they've gotten worse and BECAME the establishment by being the same tried and true sitcom as the ones the show was destroying in the first place. Like how Shrek 1 & 2 were poking fun at the same exact cliche'd shit from Disney and even the culture surrounding it, only for the Shrek series to become the establishment.
...yes, that's also exactly what I was saying
I was just saying that this always happens and it's not really exclusive to animation or the Simpsons, and therefore it doesn't "make me think" because it's kinda just the default anyways. I was remarking that I found it interesting this time around specifically because almost every other instance of the cycle repeating that you brought up has been sincere media being taken over by parody (Simpsons overtaking straight sitcoms, Shrek overtaking straight fairy tales, sarcasm and self-referential humor in general overtaking most played-straight jokes of the 20th century in the 21st, etc) whereas this is basically sincere media overtaking parody.

It's not the "you've become what you swore to destroy" part that's interesting, it's that the roles seem to be sort of reversed in terms of execution. This is semi-sincere media overtaking wholly parodic content instead of parodic content overtaking the wholly sincere.
With Simpsons, they did become a tried and true sitcom: but you can see even in the shitty recent episodes that they still retained the parody and self-reference that made them big in the first place. Homer and his family were never being introduced with laugh tracks without there being some kind of ulterior motive meant to demean those laugh tracks. They never totally abandoned the parody and satire that gave the show its popularity. The execution just became worse and worse as the old writers moved on and parody became the norm. They never changed to stay relevant and cutting-edge like they used to be back when they were the only show doing this shit on the block, so when all of their bastard children showed up and stole their spotlight by 2000 (oftentimes by differentiating themselves while the Simpsons stagnated), they just became another show on the pile of ones like it.
 
where it really "takes itself seriously" are the genuinely emotional parts like the panic attacks
Like people constantly talk about death as a character, they talk about the panic attack, they talk about the insert violence, they talk about the cancerous animation ripped from spiderverse as if its an indication of "mature storytelling" shit like that, I can understand if most of it is drummed up nonsense by soyjacks and adult infants. However here's my problems with setting it as a precedent for adult animation. (I'm gonna be a bit autistic, bear with me)

When you talk about the actual maturity of the disney renaissance or anime or whatever, they always include a level of drama, shock value and downright dark subject matter. Most of the disney renaissance movies and animated movies of the time are either rehashed classical literature or inspired by classical literature. That contributes to the actually mature concepts like war, suffering, jealousy, hate things like that which combined with the skilled animation made them almost timeless.

The little Mermaid is adapted from Hans Christian Andersen
Beauty and the beast is an adaptation of the french fairy tale and partially inspired by the french movie from the 50s
Aladdin is the 5th remake of the thief of baghdad
The lion king is inspired by Hamlet
Hunchback is an adaptation of the Victor Hugo novel
Hercules is from greek mythology
Pocahontas is a fictionalized account of a real story
Tarzan is from Edgar Rice Burroughs pulp
Mulan is from Chinese myth
Atlantis The Lost Empire was an attempt to combine Indiana Jones and Jules verne
The Emperors New Groove is from Aztec and Meso American myth
Treasure planet is from Treasure Island
Brother bear is inspired by King Lear
Prince of Egypt is a Ten Commandments Remake
Sinbad is from the Arabian Nights and inspired by Classic adventure stories
Anastasia is from Russian myth

So on and so forth, there are outliers like Lilo and Stitch but theyre almost non existent. There are plenty of myth and classical literature which will still work in animation, which I want to see personally, things like Faust, the myth of Siegfried and Journey to the west. The point is mature concepts like regicide, death, destruction, genocide, guilt, loss, hate etc come from drama and drama comes from recycling aspects of myth and literature, its literally impossible to invent on spot from a post modernist standpoint.

The problem with modern adult animation and animation in general is theres no heart, theres no understanding of actual maturity and mature concepts, all of it is just surface level snark snark edge. That said how does this contribute to Puss in boots being "mature"? It does not, theres none of those dark concepts, theres no regicide, no genocide, no threat to life, no redemption, no actual dramatic elements. The closest the movie comes to that is the fact that puss is being taught to value his life instead of wasting it, thats it. Its a good message but its not a mature concept being explored or even if it was a mature concept, its done much better with depictions of death, depression and nihilism in things like A Christmas Carol (Im 200% sure this movie is very much inspired cause they literally inserted a character called death). The filmmakers wont go that distance cause theyre scared of it being too risky and unsafe to do, being cucked basically. People praise death as a character but hes very surface level when it comes to his actions. Theres an inherent meta understanding from an audience POV that Death wont kill puss or wont harm him significantly except probably kill his ego, which just kills the mood and kills the anticipation for drama. So no matter puss being scared, the red eyes, whistling, fights and blood or whatever, you know nothing will actually change, nothing will contribute to actual dramatic impact. That sucks and makes the whole experience, just another kids movie albeit one with some extra punch. Its not on the level of something like Klaus or an old disney movie cause of lack of risk, drama and impact.

And the movie's hardly "legitimizing" mental illness by showing it- it's just using a symptom of illnesses like anxiety as a plot device because it fits (and the writers likely have experience with it). If it was one of like 5 recent movies with an explicitly positive or "normalizing" slant when regarding this kind of stuff I'd agree, but as far as I can tell it's an outlier in a sea of many movies without this kind of stuff and that's why it's getting attention in the first place.
Movies and fiction in general have been pushing intrinsic relatability instead of behavioral relatability for a while now. The reason idealistic characters work in fiction is cause people want an escape from real life. But in that escapism they want characters who behave like them, characters who see the world like them, not characters who look or feel like them. One aspect of pushing intrinsic relatability other than the skin color, gender and fucking preferences is mental illness. This is something which originated back in 2014-15 with people trying to seem relatable and cool by making their minor character flaws into mental illnesses, self diagnosing and creating hugboxes, all that nonsense. All that is mainstream now and relatability is attributed to things like that, not character. Now Puss as a character can be scared shitless of a character like Death, thats perfectly fine but turning that fear into a physical intrinsically medical manifestation like a panic attack is an explicit attempt to push intrinsic relatability and court people with said intrinsic relatability instead of relatability through character or values. Its classic hugbox bait and hugbox behavior, as actual people at least 10 years ago wouldnt talk about their mental illnesses publicly, wouldnt even try to force convert their character flaws into mental illnesses for relatability. I can definitely say the writers are trying to normalize mental illness as good writers usually make characters idealized with less intrinsic relatability, cause they realize people look upto ideal characters. But with the current crop of writing and artistic talent, we are more likely to get characters with tons of chronic illnesses instead of character flaws.
 
people constantly talk about death as a character
to be fair, he's not only one of the main villains (arguably the main villain considering how thumb guy is played for laughs) but also a big black wolf with red highlights and heavy anthro elements
you could be confusing a fair amount of edgy/furry fanart and fanboying for discussion, especially if you're referring to someplace like Twitter or tumblr
cancerous animation ripped from spiderverse
this is just dogshit taste dude
imagine equating any low fps animation to "cancer ripped from spiderverse" and then talking about it like that's even a bad thing in the first place
Spiderverse was the best 3D animation had looked in decades up to that point and I, for one, welcome the wave of clones that're actually trying new things with 3D in theaters thanks to Spiderverse (hell, this very same movie we're discussing explicitly goes for a very painterly style instead of Spiderverse's overtly comic-inspired elements
see: an action shot from each movie
1683134089385.png1683134361751.png
looking at the shading and the textures, Spider-verse's influences are blindingly obvious, and you could argue that these two look very similar on a surface level- but even examining both for just a moment, you'll start noticing differences
Puss in Boots is a lot less defined in many ways: there's not as much dithering, there's no vanishing point for the action lines, the shading for both is completely different (I realize texture makes a huge difference, though looking at Death's nose which is somewhat similar to Spider-Man's suit nets you more obvious differences) and the framing is always focused on a more widescreen approach as opposed to Spider-verse consistently incorporating comic-book panels to change the focus of the screen)
turning that fear into a physical intrinsically medical manifestation like a panic attack is an explicit attempt to push intrinsic relatability and court people with said intrinsic relatability instead of relatability through character or values.
I think you're looking into this too much. This is still a kid's movie, and the writers are clearly a little scared of kids not "getting it" considering the chihuahua. I think Death was made physical and literal just to be a bit blunter about the themes, not to "push intrinsic relatability".
I'm not denying that could be the case- there's certainly an argument to be made about how mental illness is handled in the modern day and how this could contribute to the really unhealthy and shallow discourse currently surrounding it- but I highly doubt that's even in the top 3 reasons why this is in the movie and you're looking way too deep into this
 
Last edited:
this is just dogshit taste dude
imagine equating any low fps animation to "cancer ripped from spiderverse" and then talking about it like that's even a bad thing in the first place
Low fps animation isnt a good thing to aspire too. I think ive said this in the unpopular opinions thread, I dont like spiderverse because it tries to combine comics with movies. Thats the point of low fps and smudges, to combine the panelling and slow mo still effects from comics with the movement of movies, it doesnt work. I say this as a fan of both comics and movies, theyre both very different mediums and doing slow mo shots to show how cool the panel and scene is doesnt work in a movie, the snyder and spiderverse shit doesnt work visually. Also the other problem I have with spiderverse is the fucking color palette and artstyle. It has that arcane type oil pastel artstyle with hints of claymation texture, it doesnt look the best, especially in animation. But i guess that comes down to personal preference cause the animation I like is deep-canvas 90s shit with 3d environments 2d characters and a high framerate and 90s anime with a limited color palette.
the writers are clearly a little scared of kids not "getting it" considering the chihuahua.
But the writers still want all the adult hugboxers to get it and appreciate it cause of muh relatability. Its not cool. Not every modern animated property is exclusively made for children, theyre also made for adult infants and furry hugboxers. Theyre pushing intrinsic relatability only with stuff like the panic attacks cause its an intrinsic medical characteristic, while fear is a generalized character trait.
 
doing slow mo shots to show how cool the panel and scene is doesnt work in a movie
name a single slow-mo shot in that movie
having less frames =/= fucking slow motion
they made the comic-book medium work by adapting paneling into cinema via using it to redirect your attention and change the emphasis- they use panels to frame shots and redirect your attention to them, just as your eyes would naturally follow a panel on a comic book's page, and play around with the layout of text boxes and comic books' signature thick lines to retain the feel

It has that arcane type oil pastel artstyle with hints of claymation texture, it doesnt look the best, especially in animation.
How in the world is that oil-pastel?! Seriously, how
Just because there's some color blending doesn't mean it's oil or pastel
if anything, Puss in Boots is way closer to that seeing as a lot of the shading looks like it was done with brush strokes (even if we all know that's just a specialized shader) and most of the colors are naturalistic
Spider-verse has a shit ton of neon and harsh contrast because it's trying to play off of the bright spandex suits and chromatic aberration that comes with comic books in the first place

You are really losing me here, what even are these arguments
 
I have no idea of the ratios but these are probably what he's talking about.
if you want to teach kids about fake shit and also medical info like puberty, become a doctor and make a tiktok. losers trying to educate kids is so bizarre
Pretty sure I've seen this exact post made somewhere else online, but "Animation is cinema" people would have been better off just sticking with making Little Dark Age videos on how bad most western animation is now. Puss in Boots having a panic attack, and it's consequences, have been a disaster for 30-year olds trying to justify why liking media primarily aimed at children is deep and compelling.
white people when there's kids movies with realistic panic attacks at the function:
 
I watched the moongirl cartoon pilot on youtube because it's free and since no one talked about it here, i'll just summarize how much i dislike it



Lunala is the MC and her first scenes are so corny it borders on satire. She rollerblades around town and everyone loves her. She goes to classes and a jerk boy (that is obviously supposed to be unlikable) challenges her to solve a rubix cube so she holds it one handed behind her back and keeps twisting it while she writes a paper with another hand and says she is building a fucking enviroment friendly nuclear reactor to power the entire town by itself and after she solves the cube the whole class claps. Then right after Lunala looks at the rich girl in class and blushes at her beauty (YES, another cartoon lesbian), suddendly turning into a clumsy dork and bumbling stuff around on her table.

In case it's not obvious, Lunala is a fucking super genius and everyone knows that but at the same time Lunala is presented as this relatable everyday nerd girl which is BIZARRE to me. Even her parents will comment that their skate rink was almost robbed but the high tech security system SHE BUILT OFFSCREEN stopped them. It would be one thing if they played it straight with her being a super popular prodigy but they want to have their cake and eat it.

Even her problems and failures come across as forced, easily solvable or predictable drama to setup a climax. She tames the dinosaur easily and can seemingly build anything, to the point her secret idendity makes no sense. The first time she fights the robbers they escape cause dino is fucking around but after 1 short training montage she is perfect. She loses the first fight against the villain and we get the downer moment where we pretend she gives up but of course she didnt cause she is hero.


The town is having blackouts everyday and that means her parents skate rink doesnt work so they might lose business. Lunala is really sad about these arabic restaurants losing business and "The community" and yet no one is talking about ACTUAL IMPORTANT SHIT like hospitals not working.

We also find out that Lunala has a high tech bat cave under her house that she built herself and yet we are supposed to feel bad about her parents losing money. WHY ISNT SHE SELLING THIS TECH? OR THE SECURITY SYSTEM SHE MADE?

Lunala has to keep her secret idendity but what is the point when everyone knows she is a genius and elimination would point at her? When her grandpa sees moongirl building shit she smiles because it's very obvious it can only be her. Lunala says she doesnt want to worry her family but her grandma seems ok with her almost dying so what are the stakes here? Lunala also goes train with dinosaur on public park without a mask so like, wtf how come no one sees her???

We find out that an electric woman is stealing energy and after she beats moongirl once, people think it's moongirl fault. WHY??? They happened before she appeared and she has no means to do it. Lunala also has to find a way to prove her innonence and somehow she never thinks about FILMING THE VILLAIN, despite the rich girl filming everything except the villain. The villain reveals she steal energy to feels like tired which is "petty but harmless" but later says she is going to KILL lunala and her family which is a weird edgy turn.

There is a lot of very obvious ship tease between linala and rich girl but the speed they become friends is absurd. Lunala sees her then saves her life and when rich girl visits her house, lunala reveals her secret batcave. Keep in mind that Lunala DIDNT EVEN KNOW THE GIRL NAME UNTIL THIS POINT. This ship is surface level cute fluffy thrash and very forced and apparently gets more ship tease with later episodes.

There is also a lot of tame early political stuff here. When Lunala says they should call the avengers, her grandma says they dong give a fuck about their community. Lunala's mom also says the media doesnt want to tell you the truth that the real villain isnt moongirl but "The man". Later episodes seem to include pronoun shit, reveal the rich girl has two dads, etc..

You also have this start where Lunala says she took her name from the original "Moon girl", a black woman scientist hero, which is weird since i thought the original was a primate boy named moon boy? I dont track marvel shit but this might be another retcon. I also know they had beyonder blackwashed and calling Lunala the smartest person on the planet (this is a planet with reed richards in it btw).

>the dinosaur is pointless

This is short but the dinosaur feels like a waste. He comes out of a portal she makes by accident and exists to be lunala's muscle pet. There isnt even much conflict since lunala, as the mary sue she is, tames it with a few hotdogs she stole after the vendor ran away and learns to speak dino language in seconds, only requiring a 30s montage session to completely control the beast. Devil is essentially a big dog.

tl;dr: I do not recommend unless you REALLY want to watch some surprisingly decent comic book styled animation that is used sparingly (the final fight is pretty i admit). It has a terrible MC, a plot with nonsensical stakes that swings between too dumb to take seriously (robbers selling stolen shit on their public social media profile) to serious threats (villain genuinely trying to kill a child and saying she will force her to watch her whole family die) with random and dreadful political commentary.
 
...is... is her name Lunala? Not even just Luna, but Lunala?
why the hell are they trying to push relatability with a name like that?
and why can't I stop laughing because I just keep imagining the fucking bat pokemon in her place?

Also, yeah. The original was a guy named Moon Boy. That's all I know since a name like that screams "D-tier sidekick", but I remember it was Moon Boy and Devil Dinosaur.
 
Velma’s creator did an interview whining about how everyone hating his shitty show means he’s being picked on or something.

View attachment 5112565
View attachment 5112566
There's no amount of "clapping back" that can get them out of that hole. It would've been best to say nothing.
 
I love how desperately the article tries to paint this as reasonable when the creator literally outright fucking states that Kaling wanted the show to be about her and he was like "yeah sure sounds like a great idea let's just change everyone's races while we're at it too"
 
I already said my piece on "adult animation fans can be embarrassing hypocrites" but to @Georgio Cocklord : lol calm down. Make the shit you want to see more of or keep searching/waiting until you find it. Puss in Boots:TLW is all said and done, they're not changing anything and have no control over who likes it or dislike it. There's no point in making your fingertips scab on the keyboard over weird nobodies. @starborn427614 said it best with you don't have to engage with the freaks who bring down the vibe of a good animated flick.

I'm saying in some aspects you're right, but you don't have to be a tweek about it. 🚬

>the dinosaur is pointless
And what little intrigue I had for that show has been shot in the face. That and it sounds like Lunala is Kim Possible with the charm sucked out of her. Or a reject from the nuProud Family.
 
I think this just came to be with the Puss 'n' Boots sequel because no one was expecting this one kids' movie to be good, and especially no one expected it to have the theme of death heavily involved. It felt like a throwback to a time when kids' films were actually true family films, where they were not afraid to touch on mature subject matters, especially something as the fear of death/the unknown at the subconscious level.

This is more-or-less a sign that we have an oversaturated market of animation but rarely anything of substantial has made actual impact outside of "Oh it's a Disney movie and my kids (if any) need a movie but I'm bored" (though kids are getting bored of them, too) and then something makes money but no one learns anything. That line of thinking is why we're in this slum and stuck feeling nostalgic for the Disney Renaissance of 30 years ago because it feels like animation truly peaked back then, and even Disney has thrown in the towel and stopped caring about quality.

We still get nice-looking films, of course, but again, we have to keep wading through all the shit to find them. It's almost like, perhaps, the market was more sustainable when we had only a few titles come out every year, and when there was actual healthy competition between multiple studios.

Anyway the fanbase is fucking gay and stupid, but I don't entirely fault people for latching on to the sequel as hard as they did. It deserved its attention and I hope DreamWorks makes more movies of that quality in the future. They honestly need it right now.
Yeah The Last Wish is a genuinely good film, and a good film for families. It's not the deepest movie ever but it has a lot of things to love about it. But the fanbase overhypes it too much and it reminds me of the reception to Spiderverse.

Velma’s creator did an interview whining about how everyone hating his shitty show means he’s being picked on or something.

View attachment 5112565
View attachment 5112566
I am pretty sure no one criticized the show for erasing the originals. The creators sound very out of touch and the show was criticized for its shit writing.
 
Back