Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

no.
with conventional artillery, you fire as many rounds as you can, as long as you can.
the more ammo your factories can pump out, the more shells you throw at the enemys position. the more, the better.
Actually no. The US trains even its infantry Mortar Squads to deliver dumb rounds with a high degree of accuracy. In the case of our artillery units, they are aided by a fire control computer where the artillerymen program in things like the air temperature, wind speed and direction, and the precise location of where they want the rounds to land. It then spits out a firing solution telling you what angle to direct the muzzle and so on. The fire control officer will also be double checking the computer with pen and paper as part of best practice. Artillery officers in the US Army are the biggest math dorks you will ever run into.

Drones are a BIG game changer here, because they allow the fire control officer real time observation of where his rounds are landing, and the ability to make minute adjustments.

This means even dumb rounds from a 155mm are delivered accurately. The only reason Russia needs to rely on mass barrages is because their gunners are a bunch of illiterate mobiks who can't spell their own names, let alone punch numbers correctly into a calculator. Its not as easy at sounds. You need to know exactly where you are shooting, and exactly where YOU are at the time you start shooting. Along with a bunch of minute but essential trivia like "what is my elevation above or below sea level?" What is the amount of moisture in the air today? How fucking hot or cold is it?" There is a ton of math and precision involved, but it is the base line requirement for being an artilleryman in any NATO Army. Never mind being able to pen and paper trigonometry and calculus if you want to be an officer.

I'm gettng the vibe that the Ukrainians have been trained to US Standards though. Their artillery seems pretty damn effective at hitting things without resorting to mass barrages. I bet among our "non-lethal" aid sent over the years were artillery fire control computers. They are essentially just calculators after all. Some shit heel probably even put Drug Dealer Simulator on them.
 
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@Fuck It We'll Do It Live
Consider how the US went from "the gas turbine engine of our Abrams is just too advanced for the Ukies - don't look at how they already operate T-80s with the same engine type and the fact the Iraqis are using them without compliant" to rushing to get 'zero hour' restored M1A1s (after considering the M1A2s for Ukraine) to Ukraine before the fall.
The U.S. military and government had been nagged for decades for using American designed and built automotive hardware in the Abrams. Instead of sucking off and licensed building the "superior" Teutonic German hardware by the Waffenboos.
Of course ignoring the not so little details like the fire control system. sights and such are licensed built off of American designs. Or the "famed" German EuroPowerPack now powering the Leopard II entered production over twenty years after the Abrams been in service.
 
Pretty sure the Romans tried that with the Germanic tribes...
"Hey look, we can trust this Arminius guy. His family are friends of Rome, he's been leading our auxilia with distinction in earlier conflicts, and we've even given him full-blown Roman citizenship at the rank of eques. What's he going to do, throw all that away by turning against us?"

And people wonder why we put a bunch of sell-out collaborationists in charge in 1945... The Germans as a people are either at your throat or at your feet, no in-between.
 
@Fuck It We'll Do It Live

The U.S. military and government had been nagged for decades for using American designed and built automotive hardware in the Abrams. Instead of sucking off and licensed building the "superior" Teutonic German hardware by the Waffenboos.
Of course ignoring the not so little details like the fire control system. sights and such are licensed built off of American designs. Or the "famed" German EuroPowerPack now powering the Leopard II entered production over twenty years after the Abrams been in service.
Its also important to remember that while the Abrams does have an "Export Model", the Export program was nowhere near as comprehensive as existed for the Leopard. The Leopard was intended for multinational use from the start. The Abrams was to be Uncle Sams toy that he maybe shared with others if he felt like it. This matters a great deal when it comes to the parts supply chain, field repairs and wat not. Ukraine will find it far easier to keep Leopards maintained then Abrams. Which is probably why Bradleys and Strykers were sent first. Those two WERE intended for general export to ally's and friendly clients so there are less "fiddly bits" incorporated in the designs.
 
I doubt that greatly as the only major parts of the Abrams Uncle Sam won't and constitutionally can't share with anybody. Is the armor which isn't a big deal as most of the world is terrified of DU. The DU inserts and rest of the "secret sauce" is replaced with approved replacements. And the FCS also isn't a big deal as it is relatively easy to swipe it out and either U.S. or the customer(s) installs the FCS they want to use. Everything else on the Abrams is meant to be sold on the arms market.
 
What are Prighozin's actual qualifications for conducting a modern urban battle?
Prigozhin has been in prison for fraud, was pardoned from Russian prison system along with other human trash who are equally incompetent, corrupt and a yes man to Putin's regime. Only qualifications were to brown nose Putin 24/7, military experience is irrelevant.

Since status quo in Russia in flux every rat tries to compete for positions of power, Wagner being favourite with Russian bugmen masses tries to weasel himself in before next election.

In other words no, your local pizza delivery man is equally qualified to run a PMC and commit warcrimes in a low trust society like Russia.
 
I'm gettng the vibe that the Ukrainians have been trained to US Standards though. Their artillery seems pretty damn effective at hitting things without resorting to mass barrages. I bet among our "non-lethal" aid sent over the years were artillery fire control computers. They are essentially just calculators after all. Some shit heel probably even put Drug Dealer Simulator on them.
We've been helping the Ukrainian military get up to speed with gear and training ever since Crimea.
 
yeah with modern next gen weapon systems like himars you do that. or with those super accurate high tech guided shells the burgers have, excalibur they're called i think.

but conventional old artillery (essentially just large cannons firing in a high arc) isn't used like that. instead, it is used to saturate a target area with a large volume of fire, the more the better, pinpoint accuracy not required. this is how the armies on the western front in WW1 erased entire towns from the map:
View attachment 5129378

the recent pictures of bakhmut are looking like things are going in that direction. it's not quite there yet, but if things continue the way they are then it's probably headed that way.
It doesn't matter what kind of artillery you have. You want to fire it as little as possible and be successful with those shots. It's like golf in the way that the less swings you have per game the better. With artillery it's less shots. The less you fire while accomplishing your mission the better. When you start spamming artillery it usually means there is something wrong. No artillery anywhere should function this way.

Mass barrages might be good for large targets or bunch of smaller targets. But if you just want to hit a few targets then barrages are waste. It might have a psychological impact but that would be about it. You don't want to use a barrage on a house with a few Ukrainian soldiers in it when like 1 maybe 3 shots could do it if you put in effort.
 
Tor takes forever, but here's a small dump:


RDT_20230519_1901491376852708226820136~2.jpg
FB_IMG_1684330072805~2.jpg
I've got way too much shit saved from this war.
 
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It doesn't matter what kind of artillery you have. You want to fire it as little as possible and be successful with those shots. It's like golf in the way that the less swings you have per game the better. With artillery it's less shots. The less you fire while accomplishing your mission the better. When you start spamming artillery it usually means there is something wrong. No artillery anywhere should function this way.

Mass barrages might be good for large targets or bunch of smaller targets. But if you just want to hit a few targets then barrages are waste. It might have a psychological impact but that would be about it. You don't want to use a barrage on a house with a few Ukrainian soldiers in it when like 1 maybe 3 shots could do it if you put in effort.
This. Every shell that hits an unused house in Bakhmut as opposed to an actual target is wasted. If Russian artillery was anywhere near as effective as Ukrainian artillery on a shell-to-shell basis they'd be in Kiev by now. However, since that clearly isn't the case despite the absurd difference in sheer volume, and as demonstrated by the fact the Russians have been forced to resort to leveling Bakhmut as a whole instead of just the Ukrainian positions inside of it, we can deduce that they simply cannot aim their artillery anywhere near as accurately as Ukraine can. Turns out that being able to destroy a target in one shot instead of five has its advantages...
Actually no. The US trains even its infantry Mortar Squads to deliver dumb rounds with a high degree of accuracy. In the case of our artillery units, they are aided by a fire control computer where the artillerymen program in things like the air temperature, wind speed and direction, and the precise location of where they want the rounds to land. It then spits out a firing solution telling you what angle to direct the muzzle and so on. The fire control officer will also be double checking the computer with pen and paper as part of best practice. Artillery officers in the US Army are the biggest math dorks you will ever run into.
You forgot powder temperature and barrel erosion status. As early as WW2 the USA could do in-the-field aiming with each individual gun in a battery instead of just pointing the battery as a whole in the general direction of the target, so with good observation we could easily direct the fire of an entire battery onto a single point target with just a couple registration salvoes. Combine that with incredibly flexible C3 where due to the fact we had nine billion radios anyone could call in fire as needed and batteries could be assigned as needed so we had shells falling where we wanted and pretty much when we wanted. We were the only nation that could do that without massive pre-planning and pre-calculating. Aside from the guided shells and spotting drones this is all literally 1945 methodology Ukraine is using to aim their guns, whereas the Russians seem to be stuck somewhere in 1917.

Hell, US artillery is such a key part of our doctrine that West Point's initial expansion from a specialized engineer school was to train artillerymen. Of course when you think about all the math involved in both engineering and artillery it makes sense... It wasn't until later that it become an academy for officers of all service branches. I could go on and on since big guns is where the bulk of my military 'tism is directed these days (for obvious reasons) but I'll spare everyone.
 
@CuzinEd I too had a dictator phase. For me it started with learning about gradualist socialism, and reasoning that if there are segments of society actively trying to work for a Communist dictatorship, then a preemptive strike on them is necessary. Pinochet and Lee Kuan Yew were my main interests. Later in life I mellowed out, started appreciating more the benefits of democratic society/how authoritarianism wrecks a place, and especially as Leftist authoritarianism ratcheted up I started realizing how much I hate this shit. But you still do what you have to do, there are definitely worse things than a Rightist junta and we're hurtling towards them right now.

I wrote a high school report paper defending Russia's irredentism in Crimea. I still stand by it. Crimea is ethnically Russian. If those eastern Ukrainian territories by supermajority want to be part of Russia/independent they should be. But I've seen enough aggression out of Russia by now to feel strong parallels to Hitler and Hussein. It's the same progression from very reasonable territorial claims to more and more tenuous ones. I doubt that he'd stop there. But I'm basically neutral in this because I don't know enough about the situation. I distrust the media and political establishment all jumping on this all at once.

I don't understand anyone that viewed Russia as some big stronk country. I didn't expect Russia to do as abysmally as it has, but any passing familiarity with Russian history shows them for incompetents that rely on outnumbering their enemies, and deeper familiarity with them reveals it as even worse. Occasionally they will get into a fight so protracted that they have time to fix up their shitty army into something halfway decent (as at the end of Napoleon and WW2), but then it goes right back to its usual ways. The whole country is a cesspool and has been since the Mongols, remarkably productive people at culture and science but it's like they have the souls of Asians in the bodies of Europeans. I don't even consider them real Europeans, there's a reason we say they Westernized but they didn't really, no more than say Japanese did. The only thing remotely impressive about the Russians was their space program (better, overall, than the US; they happened to drop the ball on the one thing that mattered most in public opinion) and their commandos, of course they had good equipment too, but good equipment is useless when your society doesn't make enough of it to actually outfit troops and your whole army is staffed top to bottom with political toadies and demoralized conscripts that literally sell their supplies to the enemy.

People also have a bad tendency to assume the Tsar was good because they were better than the Communists, the Empire was up unitl the 1860s a hellhole where something like nine tenths of the population were de facto slaves and the people were crushed by a secret police force. Western European countries had a way more liberal concept of serfdom and some notion of political freedom under absolutism. Russia was a tyrant's personal property like any shitty Middle Eastern or Asian empire.
 
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It doesn't matter what kind of artillery you have. You want to fire it as little as possible and be successful with those shots. It's like golf in the way that the less swings you have per game the better. With artillery it's less shots. The less you fire while accomplishing your mission the better. When you start spamming artillery it usually means there is something wrong. No artillery anywhere should function this way.

Mass barrages might be good for large targets or bunch of smaller targets. But if you just want to hit a few targets then barrages are waste. It might have a psychological impact but that would be about it. You don't want to use a barrage on a house with a few Ukrainian soldiers in it when like 1 maybe 3 shots could do it if you put in effort.

Failing that Russians unloaded white phosphorus payloads on civilian houses out of paranoia for, nevermind the fact white phosphorus munitions are against Geneva convention (Which Russia violated with glee)
 
Separating the threads was a mistake
No it wasn't. But your dreams of a thread without borders are real.
Go post there.


From where I stand, Wagner is more susceptible to attrition than Ukrainian army, even with gibs from Russian MoD.
Sort of. Remember Wagner can recruit internationally.
And there are multiple levels of wagner. There are the elites and then there are the bullet sponges.

What are Prighozin's actual qualifications for conducting a modern urban battle? Its not exactly an easy operation to carry out at the best of times, especially when your opponents is another Army rather then a bunch of African insurgents. I get the impression he doesn't actually know what he's doing, and a good portion of his tard rage screaming at the regular Russian military is him lashing out "know it alls" calling him a dumbass privately.
tl;dr Wagner below the top was run by South African mercenary types to set the standards. See @DumbDude43 below
the military aspects of wagner were mostly done by some (former?) spetsnaz soldier named dimitri utkin, even the name goes back to that guy ( "wagner" was his nom de guerre)
prigozhin mostly handled the political and organisational aspects of the PMC i believe, his connections to moscow are very useful for that

One of the great advantage of Russia is their shell supplies. I read an information that they launch 3 to 4 times more shells per day than Ukrainian side. And there is no indication of any shortages on their side.

his matters a great deal when it comes to the parts supply chain, field repairs and wat not. Ukraine will find it far easier to keep Leopards maintained then Abrams. Which is probably why Bradleys and Strykers were sent first. Those two WERE intended for general export to ally's and friendly clients so there are less "fiddly bits" incorporated in the designs.
Abrams production also isn't licensed and the parts are heavy. Ukraine is nearer the Leopard production facilities.

This why tanks like thr Type-90 and the K1/2 weren't considered viable despite the South Koreans supposedly being very interested in getting real-life field data on the K2.

If those eastern Ukrainian territories by supermajority want to be part of Russia/independent they should be.
Don't forget that those supermajorities are there after 8 years of externally fulled civil war where all the moderates or antis were either killed by militia or fled to areas that aren't exploding. That's a very bad precedent to set if you let an external power kill/displace a population then call for a vote.
 
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Don't forget that those supermajorities are there after 8 years of externally fulled civil war where all the moderates or antis were either killed by militia or fled to areas that aren't exploding. That's a very bad precedent to set if you let an external power kill/displace a population then call for a vote.
Putin continued the illusion that Crimea is Russian clay by tradition of gulaging the native population there.

Of course there will be supermajority once you ship in Ivan and his three cousins, same method used in UK to get Muslim vote and Mexican vote in Southern United States.
Follow simple steps
1. Run the place to the ground
2. Actively punish and displace the native population
3. Ship in your voting block.
4. ???
5. Profit!

Ghettos were hidden behind Potemkin buildings since imperial Russia.

"NO COMRADE STAY ON TOURIST AREA! If you know what's good for you.."
 
Russia damaged a Patriot missile system in Ukraine earlier this week, but it's already been fixed and works again, the Pentagon said on Thursday.
The US-made air defense system suffered "minor damage" amid the massive overnight Russian missile attack near Kyiv on Tuesday, Sabrina Singh, Deputy Pentagon Press Secretary, told reporters, according to European Pravda.
"I can confirm that one Patriot system was damaged, but now it is repaired and is in full operating order," Singh added.
It's unclear how exactly the Patriot was damaged and what needed to be fixed, a US official told CNN earlier this week.

The attack on Monday night involved a barrage of Russian missiles and drones, including three ground-launched missiles, six Kinzhal missiles, and nine Kalibr missiles.
Ukraine said they successfully intercepted all six Russian Kinzhal missiles but still said the attack was still "one of the most intense" on Kyiv since the war broke out.
The Patriot defense battery is a highly mobile surface-to-air missile system that is capable of taking on ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and drones.
Ukraine has received two Patriot air defense systems since the start of the war. One was donated by the US and the other was sent by Germany and the Netherlands.

Russia tried to damage another Patriot system on May 4, but failed after Ukraine successfully intercepted the missile, CNN reported.


The U.K. and the U.S. are great allies, but on Ukraine there’s a disagreement brewing. The Brits would like the Americans to be more aggressive, and the U.S. wants the U.K. to be more cautious.

The disagreement revolves mainly around weaponry. The U.K. last week announced it will send Storm Shadow cruise missiles to Ukraine, and it has provided thousands of man-portable antitank systems to Kyiv. The U.K. has also provided boutique electronic warfare and intelligence support to Ukraine. Yet although British support pales in comparison with the weapons and financial aid provided by the U.S., the U.K has shown a sustained willingness to send its best weapons to Ukraine.

It isn’t only weapons; it’s people too. U.K. special forces from the British Army’s SAS and SRR regiments and the Navy’s SBS units are operating very close to the front lines. These personnel are serving as key interlocutors between North Atlantic Treaty Organization intelligence efforts and Ukrainian forces. They aren’t fighting, but their guiding influence on Ukrainian special-forces activity is evident in the sabotage operations Ukraine has conducted against Russian railway, airfield, fuel and other logistical nodes. The British army is also regarded by the Ukrainian military command as its most reliable advisory partner.

This support would once have seemed inconceivable. British policy toward Russia from 2006 through 2022 was defined by overt appeasement. Britain’s domestic intelligence service, MI5, was overwhelmingly focused on Islamist terrorist threats during this period. As vast amounts of questionable Russian money flowed into London, successive U.K. governments simply turned a blind eye to Russian foreign policy—including the murder of dissident Alexander Litvinenko on British soil in 2006.

The March 2018 poisonings in the English city of Salisbury changed Britain’s threat assessment. Russian GRU military intelligence operatives used Novichok, a highly concentrated Soviet-era nerve agent, to poison Sergei Skripal, a former GRU officer who had defected to the U.K., and his daughter. While the Skripals survived, an unrelated British woman died several months later after she handled the discarded nerve-agent delivery mechanism, which was disguised as a perfume bottle. A police officer was also seriously wounded after visiting Mr. Skripal’s residence. The brutal recklessness of these attacks provoked global diplomatic expulsions of Russian intelligence officers and the shared anger of the U.K. political establishment and population.

Still, London’s relations with Moscow warmed until it became clear late in 2021 that Vladimir Putin intended a major invasion of Ukraine. The high confidence of the U.S. and British governments that such an invasion was approaching was heavily supported by British intercepts of Russian military and political communications. But for Prime Minister Boris Johnson, the Russian attack provoked a deeper personal reaction.

Long a Russophile, Mr. Johnson had cultivated Conservative Party connections with Russian oligarchs in London. He even made Evgeny Lebedev, son of a Putin-associated oligarch, a life member of the House of Lords. But the attack on Ukraine changed something for Mr. Johnson, a devoted admirer of Winston Churchill. The theme of Mr. Johnson’s 2014 biography of the legendary wartime prime minister was the intersection of Churchill’s innate greatness and the moment of greatest consequence. In Russia’s attack on Ukraine, the commencement of the largest war in Europe since 1945, Mr. Johnson sensed his own Churchillian moment. Crucially, he also sensed an opportunity to prove that his post-Brexit Britain would remain a global power.

Quickly deploying special forces to Ukraine alongside a large number of varied weapons and other intelligence capabilities, Mr. Johnson went all-in. Ukraine’s gratitude was evident in the personal connection Mr. Johnson established with President Volodymyr Zelensky. The ensuing success of these efforts for Ukraine’s defense, and the prestige they have lent to U.K. foreign policy, allowed Mr. Johnson’s two successors to continue his efforts. While Prime Minister Rishi Sunak is seen as risk-averse on China by many in London and Washington, he has doubled down on support for Ukraine.

Always behind the scenes, Britain, Poland and the Baltic states have lamented what they regard as the Biden administration’s lethargy in supplying Kyiv with the advanced weapons it requests. American caution is evident in other areas. When a Russian jet fighter fired on a British spy plane over the Black Sea in September 2022, the U.K. responded by deploying its own jet fighters to escort future spy flights. In contrast, when Russian jet fighters downed a U.S. drone over the Black Sea this March, the Biden administration ordered future drone flights to steer clear of the battlefield.

Coordination on Ukraine between Washington and London remains unparalleled in the West. But for London, the risk of provoking the Kremlin is viewed as less important than the reward of enabling Ukraine’s victory. And that is as much about Churchill, Brexit and Novichok as it is about Ukraine.

SS.JPG
In typical Russkie fashion, the West announces they're sending something to Ukraine, and Russia immediately announces they've destroyed 6 gorillion of them.
 
Failing that Russians unloaded white phosphorus payloads on civilian houses out of paranoia for, nevermind the fact white phosphorus munitions are against Geneva convention (Which Russia violated with glee)
Someone corrected me before that it's not ackhtuly white phosphorous but some other type of incendiary ordnance, supposedly not as bad
But who really knows
 
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