Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Glowie]

Obligatory reminder that Macron unilaterally tried to suggest surrendering Ukrainian territory to make peace, without ever asking them, while the UK have gone on the record saying Russia should eventually be pushed out of Crimea, even if it isn't necessarily realistic in the near term. As always fuck the garlic eating, soap dodging, nazi collaborating surrender monkeys.

And Macron praising China ant copying their "Peace deals" the frog thinks himself as a Roman God-King of EU.

Zelenaky clearly stated "It began in Crimea and it will end in Crimea". Is that so hard to understand?

 

[MS Paint Gigachad]

The T-62 isn't superior to any Russian tanks that came after it. The T-62 can't penetrate any of the modern Western tanks at least not frontally. It might be able to penetrade the sides and rear of some of the tanks. The only Western tank that Ukraine has been given the T-62 would even stand a chance against would be a Leo 1. I think they were given some Leopard 1's. No matter what upgrades the T-62 gets it will still have that same 115mm main gun. But all of the tanks Ukraine is using could penetrate the T-62 from any angle. No matter how many armor plates the Russians bolt on.

You will never be a modern tank. You have no composite armor, you have no modern optics, you have no modern electronics. You are a heap of scrap metal twisted by vodka and corruption into a crude mockery of what Ukraine is yet to receive.

All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. In your face the holhols mock you. Your crewmen are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “manufacturers” laugh at your ghoulish appearance behind closed doors.

Men are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of evolution have allowed anti-tank weapons to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even cold war relics with “ERA” look uncanny and unnatural to a man. You're still vulnerable to top-attack and tandem-charge warheads. And even if you manage to get some drunk slavs to crew you, they’ll turn tail and bolt the second they get a whiff of any anti-tank weapons.

You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake propaganda piece every single morning and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you know the arms race has already crept up on you like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear – a holhol will load his RPG-7, aim it directly at your front plate, pull the trigger, and destroy you with a 60 year old munition. Some Ukrainian farmer will find you, sad but grateful that their army was issued better tanks. They’ll salvage you for scrap metal, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know you achieved nothing, save for being an oversized coffin for tankmen. Your parts will rust and go back to the dust, and all that will remain of your legacy is a wreck that was unmistakably destroyed.

This is your fate. This is what your government chose. There is no turning back.

 

[East_Clintwood]

https://archive.is/jhO66

Norwegian government statement confirming 8 more M270 MLRS, and 3 counter battery radars are being donated in conjunction with the UK (google translated version below)

Norway provides three artillery location radars and eight long-range rocket artillery of the MLRS type. The donations are made in close collaboration with Great Britain.
- We must maintain our support for Ukraine so that they can continue their fight for freedom and independence. More weapons are needed, and these are capacities in high demand for Ukraine that we would not have been able to achieve without close cooperation with Great Britain, says Defense Minister Bjørn Arild Gram (Sp).
Norway has previously donated three MLRS missiles to Great Britain. Together with the eight that have now been donated, this helped to increase the UK's ability to continue its support to Ukraine.
- This is a weapon that has had a great effect in the conflict, and has given Ukraine the opportunity to delimit Russian supply lines and also to knock out a number of important targets behind the front lines, says Gram.
Archive image from shooting with MLRS at Setermoen shooting range. Photo: Torgeir Haugaard / The Norwegian Armed Forces
Norway has also decided to donate three Arthur radars from the Defense's warehouse to Ukraine. These radars are used to locate enemy artillery. The donation will be carried out in collaboration with Great Britain, which has also previously donated this type of radar to Ukraine.
- The Ukrainian people have shown impressive resilience. Their fight is also our fight - for freedom, democracy and security, says the Minister of Defence.
The Defense is in the process of replacing its Arthur artillery locating radars with new ones. The ongoing investment project is scheduled to deliver new artillery location radars to the Norwegian Armed Forces in 2024 and 2025. The MLRS has been decommissioned by the Norwegian Armed Forces and is therefore not part of the military structure

My guess is this will be similar to the previous MLRS deal where the units will be given to Britain and then we'll donate an equal number of our more modernised version to Ukraine.

 

[Vince McMahon]

It is now officially the Battle of Verdunsk. You can't change my mind. Putin is Field Marshal Haig confirmed.

 

[Fuck It We'll Do It Live]

Do we have a Brit in the thread? Can you explain why the UK helps Ukraine the most in West Europe, despite being one of the furthest away countries from Russia? Is there just a big public support and politicians are using it for clout?

Britain has been skeptic about Russia's imperial ambitions at least as far back as the Great Game of the 19th century, where Britain was always trying to check any Russian attempts in Asia, least it threatened the British Raj in India.

There's also the recent use of Novichok in Salisbury in 2018, and the use of Polonium-210 to murder Alexander Litvinenko in 2006, so the Brits have fairly recent justifications to want to seek revenge against Putin.

To be honest, I think the main reason why Britain is the most Russophobic in West Europe is that its people are simply more martial in mindset, particularly the English. The other nations of West Europe don't even spend the necessary 2% of their GDP towards military spending (as it required by NATO membership). I think same martial mindset is also shared by the similarly Anglo-Saxon US, where support for the army has always remained popular among its population.

But I also heard that niggers and brownies in the UK do not care - and are even annoyed by all attention - about this war. Not sure about Pajeets.

They are less martial overall than the Englishman; a lot of the Empire fought among British soldiers during the Boer War and the World Wars, but the people coming into Britain post-1945 are mostly concerned with filling up vacancies in the NHS, not fighting a war which they probably see as an inter-white one. A lot of that population often supported Brexit; not because they were concerned particularly by Brussels, but because they resented free movement from (white) European nations and wanted more visas for their cousins from India and Nigeria to be made available.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Regarding Wagner, The Telegraph of all people released a surprisingly decent video on Bakhmut few hours ago as a bit of a summary:

I remember Prigozhin referring to their activity in Bakhmut as Operation "Meatgrinder". I assume he though Wagner could actually tie down Ukrainian army there and grind them down to the point that Russia could retake initiative on the front. Isn't that overly optimistic?
Have they ever considered that they'd be turned into mincemeat just the same, especially considering that they're the ones on the offensive? Is this just hubris?
From where I stand, Wagner is more susceptible to attrition than Ukrainian army, even with gibs from Russian MoD.

What are Prighozin's actual qualifications for conducting a modern urban battle? Its not exactly an easy operation to carry out at the best of times, especially when your opponents is another Army rather then a bunch of African insurgents. I get the impression he doesn't actually know what he's doing, and a good portion of his tard rage screaming at the regular Russian military is him lashing out "know it alls" calling him a dumbass privately.

 

[East_Clintwood]

What are Prighozin's actual qualifications for conducting a modern urban battle?

He is (or at least was when he first founded Wagner), butt buddies with Putin, that's it, he has no actual military background at all afaik.

 

[DumbDude43]

He is (or at least was when he first founded Wagner), butt buddies with Putin, that's it, he has no actual military background at all afaik.

the military aspects of wagner were mostly done by some (former?) spetsnaz soldier named dimitri utkin, even the name goes back to that guy ( "wagner" was his nom de guerre)
prigozhin mostly handled the political and organisational aspects of the PMC i believe, his connections to moscow are very useful for that

 

[Coffee Mugshot]

Politico article
[A]

 

[mindlessobserver]

I feel like the US is probably pushing all these countries to offer up the latest gen tech and weapons and then "reluctantly" going along with the impassioned pleas of its ally's. This is some next level Chinese court politics where all the flunkies have to "beg" the Emperor to make the decision that was already made behind the Bamboo curtain.

 

[Fuck It We'll Do It Live]

I feel like the US is probably pushing all these countries to offer up the latest gen tech and weapons and then "reluctantly" going along with the impassioned pleas of its ally's. This is some next level Chinese court politics where all the flunkies have to "beg" the Emperor to make the decision that was already made behind the Bamboo curtain.

Consider how the US went from "the gas turbine engine of our Abrams is just too advanced for the Ukies - don't look at how they already operate T-80s with the same engine type and the fact the Iraqis are using them without compliant" to rushing to get 'zero hour' restored M1A1s (after considering the M1A2s for Ukraine) to Ukraine before the fall.

The Europeans are also guilty of it too - the whole fiasco of wanting to send Leopards to Ukraine but waiting for Biden to send the Abrams first. At least the UK nutted up first by announcing its Challenger 2 tanks first.

 

[Snekposter]

I used to hear about Russian mobilization all the time. Is that still off the table?

In order to mobilize you need spare equipment, and considering we've seen T-55's being pulled out of depots (almost certainly for use as training tanks because they can't spare any T-62's for that), their ability to mobilize is limited. Sure, tanks need spare crewmen for when they get hit... but tank crews without a tank are just poorly-trained light infantry. And while Russia certainly can chuck a bunch of poorly-trained mobiks at the Ukrainian lines... they've already been doing that with no results to show for it. Turns out all you need to stop 1940's infantry rushes is 1980's artillery tech. Any large-scale mobilization would absolutely require a massive extended training period simply to teach the recruits how not to die in the modern battlefield, never mind actually fighting in it. So while Russia certainly can mobilize, it would be a not-so-tacit admission that yes, Russia is indeed at war instead of just a special military operation that will be over by Christmas. And Putin cannot admit that the tiny, illegitimate, Nazi-run non-nation of Ukraine is proving itself an equal foe that would require the might of all Russia to conquer.

I feel like the US is probably pushing all these countries to offer up the latest gen tech and weapons and then "reluctantly" going along with the impassioned pleas of its ally's. This is some next level Chinese court politics where all the flunkies have to "beg" the Emperor to make the decision that was already made behind the Bamboo curtain.

Which is the smart way to do it. The USA does has a well-deserved reputation for bellicosity after all, and this both a good way to pare it down and look nicer for the world while also making it harder for Putin to start talking about how the Big Bad USA has it out for the Russian people. It forces him to blame Europe, who just go "Who, us? You're the one who started all this in our continent." If war is the continuation of politics through other means, then regrettably political concerns must be taken into account for the overall conduct of said war.

 

[Parasole]

I can, I've touched on this a few times in various posts in this thread, and in the predecessor one before it go locked. Ultimately I think it's a confluence of several things.

Britain has been skeptic about Russia's imperial ambitions at least as far back as the Great Game of the 19th century, where Britain was always trying to check any Russian attempts in Asia, least it threatened the British Raj in India.

Interesting read. It seems like in the end it all comes down to the willingness of the elite. I guess, now we need to summon a German to tell us why Deutschland is so lackluster. Looking at the history, more than third of their country was occupied and was a USSR puppet state for almost 50 years - their elites should've felt more resentful then they are right now. At least they should've been more vocal then the UK

Separating the threads was a mistake

Not if you value your time. I didn't read the thread before the Great Separation, but I can imagine what happens when you combine two groups of autists, different views and too much of free time. If you just want to know information then read Institute for the Study of War's every day report. And leave this sperging den for good

Ukraine is still a small

Not really small. Even without Crimea and L/DPR, it is still the largest country in Europe after Russia.

No, we don't have any proof. All we know is the Russians (Prigozhin/Wagner) have spent months screwing around in Bakhmut and accomplished nothing major. Many reasons could explain their failure there. But one those reasons could be the lack of ammo and supplies. Then you have to ask why Wagner isn't getting any support from the Russian military with ammo and supplies. Either the Russians are really low on those things or they are cutting Wagner off. The next question is why. Could is possibly be because Wagner has so far accomplished nothing while wasting large amounts of "soldiers". Wagner is supposed to be some of Russia's best. But I heard the Russian military are taking the soldiers out of Wagner.

One of the great advantage of Russia is their shell supplies. I read an information that they launch 3 to 4 times more shells per day than Ukrainian side. And there is no indication of any shortages on their side. I also didn't see any indication of shortages on Wagner side, apart from Prigozhin whining. Videos of massive shelling in Bakhmut are still coming regularly, I even posted few of them. The pace didn't really change, they were taking few dozen meters a day in the beginning and now is the same. There is literally no indication that they are not supplied. Nothing have changed at all.

 

[East_Clintwood]

I guess, now we need to summon a German to tell us why Deutschland is so lackluster.

I'm not a kraut (thank God), but I can give a very basic overview of some of the major factors.

1)Germany, more than basically anyone else was hooked on cheap Russian gas, for everything from electricity generation to industry. As a comparison before the war the UK got ~8% of it's gas from Russia, in Germany it was 55%

2)An absolutely fucking retarded failure of foreign policy named Wandel durch Handel (literally change through trade). It's the idea that rather than trying to force regime change through force, or even negative foreign policy like sanctions and shit, you instead increase your trade with assholes in the belief that binding them closer will eventually change them to your viewpoint. Naturally that's a fucking retarded idea and works about as well as you'd expect

3)Somewhat related to 1 and 2 is the fact that Germany's politicians are Russia's bitches. Lefties in the West might moan about alleged Russian interference in the 2016 election, or the Brexit referendum, but that's nothing on their hold in Germany. To wit, former chancellor Gerhard Schroder (the dude who pushed through Nord Stream), is or has been on the board of basically every major Russian oil company, and the consortium that runs the fucking pipeline he insisted on. Or even Merkel herself who insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that her foreign policy of basically allowing Russia to do whatever the fuck it wanted in 2014 has absolutely no bearing on the current situation.

4)Because of their collective guilt over muh 6 gorillion the German Armed Forces are a fucking shell of their former selves. Combine that with #2 and the governments have basically neglected them to the point of uselessness, and refuse to do anything to correct it, meaning they can't do much to help Ukraine militarily even if they wanted to.

 

[DumbDude43]

more than third of their country was occupied and was a USSR puppet state for almost 50 years - their elites should've felt more resentful then they are right now.

lmaoooo
you really don't get how contemptuous the german political class is of their own country and people
these types don't feel resentful about russia, they feel grateful

you have to understand that this german political class originated as a bunch of collaborators who were selected to do the bidding of the allied occupation forces in occupied germany. the very structure of the state, its constitution, its institutions and its press have been designed from the ground up to serve anti german interests above all else, and the line of succession from those people to the current elite is unbroken.
these rulers do not see themselves as rulers of a country whose job is to lead their people, rather they see themselves as stewards whose job is to administer an occupied hostile territory in the name of a foreign empire.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

2)An absolutely fucking retarded failure of foreign policy named Wandel durch Handel (literally change through trade). It's the idea that rather than trying to force regime change through force, or even negative foreign policy like sanctions and shit, you instead increase your trade with assholes in the belief that binding them closer will eventually change them to your viewpoint. Naturally that's a fucking retarded idea and works about as well as you'd expect

Pretty sure the Romans tried that with the Germanic tribes...

 

[CuzinEd]

So that T-54/55 with the 50mm AA gun mounted on it is supposedly being used by one of the separatists groups in Ukraine. The Russians get all the "good" stuff and their friends get the Mad Max kit bash shit. lol

I'm not a kraut (thank God), but I can give a very basic overview of some of the major factors.

1)Germany, more than basically anyone else was hooked on cheap Russian gas, for everything from electricity generation to industry. As a comparison before the war the UK got ~8% of it's gas from Russia, in Germany it was 55%

2)An absolutely fucking retarded failure of foreign policy named Wandel durch Handel (literally change through trade). It's the idea that rather than trying to force regime change through force, or even negative foreign policy like sanctions and shit, you instead increase your trade with assholes in the belief that binding them closer will eventually change them to your viewpoint. Naturally that's a fucking retarded idea and works about as well as you'd expect

3)Somewhat related to 1 and 2 is the fact that Germany's politicians are Russia's bitches. Lefties in the West might moan about alleged Russian interference in the 2016 election, or the Brexit referendum, but that's nothing on their hold in Germany. To wit, former chancellor Gerhard Schroder (the dude who pushed through Nord Stream), is or has been on the board of basically every major Russian oil company, and the consortium that runs the fucking pipeline he insisted on. Or even Merkel herself who insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that her foreign policy of basically allowing Russia to do whatever the fuck it wanted in 2014 has absolutely no bearing on the current situation.

4)Because of their collective guilt over muh 6 gorillion the German Armed Forces are a fucking shell of their former selves. Combine that with #2 and the governments have basically neglected them to the point of uselessness, and refuse to do anything to correct it, meaning they can't do much to help Ukraine militarily even if they wanted to.

Of course the accusations of Russian interference in the 2016 US elections are nothing. It never happened. The Russian didn't interfere in the 2016 election. Not in any kind of meaningful way. That was just all BS to go after Trump. It was a nice cope for Hillary losing because people hated her.
@Parasole

One of the great advantage of Russia is their shell supplies. I read an information that they launch 3 to 4 times more shells per day than Ukrainian side. And there is no indication of any shortages on their side. I also didn't see any indication of shortages on Wagner side, apart from Prigozhin whining. Videos of massive shelling in Bakhmut are still coming regularly, I even posted few of them. The pace didn't really change, they were taking few dozen meters a day in the beginning and now is the same. There is literally no indication that they are not supplied. Nothing have changed at all.

The Russians firing so many artillery rounds isn't really a positive thing. It means the Russian artillery isn't accurate and it's not accomplishing what they intended to do. Every shell you fire is a shell you can't get back. Firing the shell adds wear to the barrel. Artillery fire missions are best accomplished with firing as little as possible. The Russians are artillery happy. They would make contact with Ukrainians then run away and call in artillery. Even if the Ukrainians weren't really there. From what I heard they were dumping artillery on places they thought the Ukrainians might be.

We do have proof there were shortages of artillery shells. The Russians were getting shells from the North Koreans and I think Iran. We know they were getting drones from Iran as well. Having to take old T-62's and T-55's out of storage is also signs of shortages. You wouldn't use the old stuff. You would use your newest and best stuff.

 

[DumbDude43]

The Russians firing so many artillery rounds isn't really a positive thing. It means the Russian artillery isn't accurate and it's not accomplishing what they intended to do.

no.
with conventional artillery, you fire as many rounds as you can, as long as you can.
the more ammo your factories can pump out, the more shells you throw at the enemys position. the more, the better.

 

[CuzinEd]

no.
with conventional artillery, you fire as many rounds as you can, as long as you can.
the more ammo your factories can pump out, the more shells you throw at the enemys position. the more, the better.

No. You fire as little possible and accomplish more with that. The Russian's artillery game is either garbage tier or they wore their barrels out making their artillery less accurate so they had to fire more rounds to accomplish a mission. Then they had to go buy some more shells from North Korea. Either way the Russians look bad.

 

[DumbDude43]

You fire as little possible and accomplish more with that.

yeah with modern next gen weapon systems like himars you do that. or with those super accurate high tech guided shells the burgers have, excalibur they're called i think.

but conventional old artillery (essentially just large cannons firing in a high arc) isn't used like that. instead, it is used to saturate a target area with a large volume of fire, the more the better, pinpoint accuracy not required. this is how the armies on the western front in WW1 erased entire towns from the map:


the recent pictures of bakhmut are looking like things are going in that direction. it's not quite there yet, but if things continue the way they are then it's probably headed that way.