Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Very possibly you'd see the *stans side with Russia to some degree; it'd be more strategically viable to keep them "Neutral-leaning-Russia" and providing a buffer than opening a new front. I'm not up on Mongolian politics, but I wouldn't rule them out if the deal is sweet enough.
Belarus. North Korea.

China and India would be in there, profiteering.

There is a non-zero chance of Venezuela and Cuba throwing in for Russia like Argentina did for the Nazis. But I'd give it maybe 3:1 odds; Maduro is currently taking the life line fate has thrown him and being a good boy.



North Korea already effectively sells its citizens as slaves to China; said exported Norks are 100% for getting sold like this because while being worked like dogs, they at least get fed.

So I don't see any reason Kimmy wouldn't sell his citizens to Russia especially given that if there's a real war on, Russia is going to ignore all international export bans on transfers to NK.
The Norks also have long earned money from supplying their people to log timber in Siberia, which is a very direct form of slavery. Quite likely that short border is busy. Perhaps its low quality shells are sent that way.

Vlad Vexler on terrorist and self publicist (Girkin) accuses another (Prigozhin) of plotting a coup.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gbGo6ANRP0 (pasted in case the embedding doesn't work)

While Girkin's loyal opposition criticism is mostly tolerated probably from professional courtesy (Putin and Girkin have the same KGB origins), Prigozhin is useful. Bakhmut has been taken at the cost largely of people Putin likely regards as human refuse and the Wagner gold activity in Sudan alongside other mine related stuff in West Africa, probably relates to some useful sanction busting activity, less monitored than RF mining activities, and maybe somehow less risky than grey market Turkish activities which Erdogan might decide to close off if it becomes no longer useful.
 
grey market Turkish activities which Erdogan might decide to close off if it becomes no longer useful.
Not going to happen. If Ukraine outright wins this war, they will become the preeminent land power in the Black Sea, and a direct threat to Turkey's ambitions in the Caucuses. This is a good opportunity to bring up the "what's next" thought experiment. The war is over. Ukraine has won, and it has a fuck huge army of half a million soldiers, western weapons, Russia has been humiliated and is pulling in on itself.


What becomes of the Caucuses? The "Karabach" in the song " March of the new Army. Does Ukraine ignore the situation its fellow orthodox in Armenia and Georgia find themselves in, pressed hard by the muslim Turks and Azeris? Or does Ukraine give its hundreds of thousands of veteran soldiers something to do in the Karabach.

Turkey has played both sides off the middle for decades now, and at this point its playing a very dangerous game. The Turkish economy is a joke, they are still reeling from that earthquake and the Turks are now so wedded to the Orthodox vs. Muslim conflict in the Caucuses the blow back can be catastrophic. Especially if the Muslim Worlds major food supplier, Ukraine, decides to take an interest. Turkey cannot afford for Ukraine to win the war outright, and make no mistake Erdogan knows this. Iran is already in deep shit because Ukraine is preparing to sever the food shipments to that country. They can recover by selling out to India and China, but the rest of the Arab world cannot afford to be cut off from Ukraine and there is a dawning realization in Kiev at just how much power they hold over the middle east simply by providing the bread those states need to survive.

Combine that with a victorious military and Turkey's dream of being the whip hand of the Arab world is ruined. Kiev may end up holding it. Especially if the economic house of cards in Ankara collapses entirely. Erdogan will absolutely do what he can to prevent an outright Ukrainian victory in this war. If Ukraine wins, the Turkish position in the Caucuses and potentially even the arab world is in peril.
 
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I mean, the fucker isn't wrong. The Ukraine war has been the best thing to happen for US Foreign Policy since the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. I'm not shocked at all they are yucking it up in DC right now. Putin has done more in the past year to shore up Americas flailing strategic position then any other person on the planet bar none. Beijing has to be absolutely seething right now.
I get some serious "Laughing Agent Smith" vibes off Graham but I don't blame him for being that sadistically giddy since the Russians handed us Europe on a silver platter by launching this invasion. The European "trade will bring Russia around" doctrine has been taken out back and shot, securing NATO's (and therefore America's) position for decades.

Also, the Europeans were against us hard with Iran for that same reason. They wanted to do business with Iran but couldn't do so as long as the US was sanctioning them, and now they've got no legs to stand on there thanks to Russia lopping those off.
 
I want to say something, and generally I try to further practical discussion instead of just furthering the debate between sides but I'm going to fail this time:

There's multiple levels to my hatred for vatniggers. Obviously I hate them just for being wrong most of the time, constantly making false predictions, which get immediately disproven, with the same confidence they say the sun will rise in the morning. But I think what really hits me more than anything else is their complete misunderstanding of scale. Over in the Russia thread, it's the perfect stereotype of hicks who've never ventured outside their one horse town trying to comprehend the scale of modern war. People in that thread are still talking about a single ammo dump that was blown up weeks ago, and how globohomo is covering up how it will make all of eastern Europe suffer radiation sickness. An entire half of a continent, from one accidental ammo dump, not even an actual nuke. I don't know how to express how much that does not work on that scale.

I always try to avoid too much pro-Ukraine propaganda, because it's too easy to forget the scale of war we're dealing with. Yes, Russia has failed on every conceivable level with this war, and it will never recover from their blunders. Russia wants people to still think it's a superpower but it can barely take on a country 1/3 the size, and they are losing money and men as if it's a war of survival instead of conquest. This war has taught the world a lot about how important modern equipment and logistics are, and the difficulties of taking an entrenched opponent without air superiority. But the important thing to remember is that Ukraine is still 1/3 the size of Russia by every metric. They can still lose even with Russia fucking up this bad. People can be in this thread, be pro-Ukraine and laugh at Russia's mistakes, and still think Russia will win. That's not a contradiction. There's nothing wrong with thinking "Ukraine keeps losing territory for months, they're probably gonna keep losing territory. They're getting drip-fed weapons from NATO but nobody seems to actually care about giving them enough to win."

Which means that everyone who is genuinely pro-Russia needs to not only think Russia is winning the war, but also see all the combat footage and conclude that this war has not been a total embarrassment for them. They have to think Russia is still the second strongest military in the world, and the only reason they're constantly losing momentum is because NATO is suiciding itself in a desperate bid to keep them contained, or something. "US spent a hundred billion dollars sending Javelins and Patriots, and yet they can't stop superior Russian tanks and missiles from storming the most strategically important location in Ukraine! Not only will Russia win, but all that aid the US sent will ensure the entire US hegemon collapses!", they cry, having clearly never so much as peeked at the US government's budget. The United States is the lone superpower of the world. Even if Russia was, somehow, the second strongest nation in the world, it wouldn't matter because there aint no silver medal in war.

The US is universally known to be the lone superpower. The US has the largest air force in the world, and also the second largest air force in the world, all during a rare time of peace when compared to "the second strongest" throwing everything it has into this war. In the year since the war started, the US military could have built and supplied Ukraine with 200 Patriot systems, 100,000 HIMARS launchers, and 1,000,000 Javelin rockets and still come in under the previous year's military budget. Obviously, without in any way impacting the reserve systems the US already built. The US is famous for ridiculously overspending on its military, ever since 9/11 people have been questioning whether it's really strictly necessary for the US to spend three times what anyone else spends, every year, on military. In truth, the US is mostly sending weapons that were already built and would sit in storage anyway, so it doesn't even cost a single dollar to provide 100 billion in weapons. Not to mention, if the US actually got involved in a war directly, it has a standing army of trained volunteers that is still larger than Putin's horde of conscripts, all with one NATO country, not even touching on the UK or Germany.

It's funny, you look at the US military expenditure and it's shocking how little the US has even tried since World War II. Sure, the US sent a bunch of guys to Vietnam to die in the jungle, and that's one of the most important events in recent history, but that whole war that lasted multiple decades had a mere fraction of the spending WWII used in 4 years. The US won the Gulf War in 7 months, singlehandedly, with less money than they've currently sent to Ukraine. With all this military spending, most citizens don't even know what wars the US is even in. Even if they were ridiculously corrupt and 90% of the money put into the military was lost in the bureaucracy, the US would still be the undisputed strongest nation in the world. The idea that anyone could claim that the US is actually trying in this war is laughable, but that's exactly what people in the Russia thread are saying. They say Ukraine is just a puppet that actually represents the full might of NATO, and yet that's exactly what happens. Every single page, someone the the Russia thread will unironically claim that this war, this tiny little war in eastern Europe, this is the straw that will cause the US to start a civil war and destroy western civilization as we know it. The US, after seeing 10% of their military budget get wasted, will have no choice but to start a nuclear war of annihilation because they know there is no way to defeat superior Russia.

There's so many specific things I could point out about vatnik cope, but it would feel like I was nitpicking compared to the sheer scale of modern warfare. Like, the important thing to note is that even with the $100b in aid they've got, most of Ukraine's army is Ukrainian stuff. The rest of the military costs more than $100b, because that's just what modern militaries cost to field. If I was living in an alternate universe where Russia sent $100b in aid to a war against the US, I'd sorta shrug and say "neat", because I'd just assume they had more in the tank. But this is the big topic of discussion over there, how much NATO is spending on the war and how they're going to collapse any day now because they are single-handedly funding the entire Ukrainian army. What's especially bizarre is most of them seem to be American, some western European, and yet they're the ones arguing most strongly that this war is crippling the entire western hemisphere and everyone is dying because of the money wasted on the war. Like, seriously, do they not see how completely unaffected any of these countries are? Did their girlfriends all break up with them and now they're sitting in the room with the blinders drawn playing Linkin Park and assuming everyone else is suffering like they did? You can literally just look up combat footage from Afghanistan and compare it to the Ukraine war, and see how much of a difference there is in scale, competence, progress...you don't need news sources to tell you what the scale of war is like, and how effective each country's military is.
 
Perhaps you've heard of the dust-up involving Lindsey Graham, the Republican senator from South Carolina who recently met with Zelenskyy. Here's the story as of now.

This clip went viral with Graham saying, "And the Russians are dying. It's the best money we've ever spent."
View attachment 5141939

This seemingly bloodthirsty comment did not go over well with many people, including domestically. Russia in particular threw a tantrum. First, Margarita Simonyan, head of RT, more or less implied Graham should be assassinated, since "we have his address":
Archive

And Russia issued a meaningless warrant for his arrest for "Russophobic statements":
Archive

But, wouldn't you know it, it turns out that the above clip is two sentences spliced together from different parts of the conversation, and aren't even in the right order. Here's a larger continuous clip with both sentences, where the "money spent" is simply for supporting Ukraine:
View attachment 5141944

Congratulations, Russia, you played yourself.
Damnit Russia, way to make Lindsey "Southern Lady" Graham sound more based and cutthroat than he actually is...
 
I'm kinda shocked Prigozhin gets to sperg out and badmouth MoD, Shoigu personally and entire generals, all the while rolling around with his gang in a foreign country, killing citizens of another country that we aren't even technically at war with (according to Kremlin).
Officially he's fucking nothing, a nobody, yet acts like he's a big deal. Really interested to see how this ends for this particular individual (who deserves life in prison, at the very least).
 
I'm kinda shocked Prigozhin gets to sperg out and badmouth MoD, Shoigu personally and entire generals, all the while rolling around with his gang in a foreign country, killing citizens of another country that we aren't even technically at war with (according to Kremlin).
According to the Kremlin, they're operating on Russian territory (annexation). So this would be a "police action" or counter-terrorism operation, or repelling a foreign incursion. Of course, I doubt they believe it themselves and are fully aware it's an invasion.

As for the badmouthing, a few analysts have claimed that this is a typical feature of strongman regimes: having underlings fight amongst themselves so none get too strong, and the guy at the top's position is more secure.

Officially he's fucking nothing, a nobody, yet acts like he's a big deal. Really interested to see how this ends for this particular individual (who deserves life in prison, at the very least).
They all do. However, for Prigozhin it'll be round 2.
 
I'm kinda shocked Prigozhin gets to sperg out and badmouth MoD, Shoigu personally and entire generals, all the while rolling around with his gang in a foreign country, killing citizens of another country that we aren't even technically at war with (according to Kremlin).
Officially he's fucking nothing, a nobody, yet acts like he's a big deal. Really interested to see how this ends for this particular individual (who deserves life in prison, at the very least).
He's making lots of loud noises but for now he's toeing Putin's line. And he has plenty of well-trained loyal men around him. Personally I'm more concerned about Lukashenko in Belarus who may have made the mistake of having too much tea. He's also been (relatively) disloyal towards Putin once it became clear that things were going to drag out and has been extremely blind towards any sabotage or interference in Russian supply routes. No doubt Putin took his moving from loyal to "neutral" very personally.
 
Chewing on the Lukoshenko question, was he poisoned or not, I don't see the play from Putin. Unless he's gone properly nuts.

Many of the leaders of the Stans showed up to the Victory Day in Moscow as well and if you’re going to poison visiting heads of states while everyone is in town that is a great way to piss off the entirety of Central Asia and go full North Korea on total number of visiting dignitaries per year. The Stans have been playing much closer to China for a while, with the war accelerating the pace. Why make feeble personal threats when it just means they will never visit again?

Personally think the fat fuck has gout or similar fat fuck illness.
 
Chewing on the Lukoshenko question, was he poisoned or not, I don't see the play from Putin. Unless he's gone properly nuts.

Many of the leaders of the Stans showed up to the Victory Day in Moscow as well and if you’re going to poison visiting heads of states while everyone is in town that is a great way to piss off the entirety of Central Asia and go full North Korea on total number of visiting dignitaries per year. The Stans have been playing much closer to China for a while, with the war accelerating the pace. Why make feeble personal threats when it just means they will never visit again?

Personally think the fat fuck has gout or similar fat fuck illness.
We all thought Putin would be nuts to launch an invasion of Ukraine given his military's endemic corruption issues and total lack of preparedness. But here we are, well over a year into this three day special military operation. The chances of him being crazy enough to poison someone, anyone he thinks is going to betray him are greater than zero, especially when you look at all the window "suicides". Oh, and that one random axe incident where a Russian oligarch hacked his entire family apart before killing himself for reasons nobody has been able to determine.

I also didn't say he was poisoned, just that its a possibility given how shockingly fast he put distance between Minsk and Moscow once it became clear that things weren't going as planned. The KGB did have a rather final "Thus always to traitors" policy after all.
 
Finally got a decent connection back to announce that in two days we will have officially left spring.

Meaning that the total gains of Russia's Winter and Spring offensives has been

- One Salt Mine (slightly used)
- One town/small city which had a population smaller than Grand Forks North Dakota

All of which resulted in casualties great enough to incite multiple near mutinies and spawn its own subreddit of dead and dying russian soldier footage and material losses so dire russia is pulling shit that was designed while Hitler was still breathin and sneeding out to throw at the front lines, and the latter of which took them the best part of a year after declaring imminent victory for them to grind control of after the entire place was slowly levelled, at which point they came to a dead stop once again

Also russia appears to now be subject to regular raiding parties across its borders, and given the lack of loudly trumpeted footage of sekrit ukrainian counter offensive forces with their shiny new Challenger/Leopard/Abrams/Bradly tonkys being wiped out en masse by superior #based and #rugged russian tech and training, im guessing we are in for a rather interesting summer
I don't think the Russians have been using anything from the WW2 era. The T-62 is more like mid cold car and the T-54/55 is like early cold war. Very early cold war. Like late 40's and early 50's.
Perhaps you've heard of the dust-up involving Lindsey Graham, the Republican senator from South Carolina who recently met with Zelenskyy. Here's the story as of now.

This clip went viral with Graham saying, "And the Russians are dying. It's the best money we've ever spent."
View attachment 5141939

This seemingly bloodthirsty comment did not go over well with many people, including domestically. Russia in particular threw a tantrum. First, Margarita Simonyan, head of RT, more or less implied Graham should be assassinated, since "we have his address":
Archive

And Russia issued a meaningless warrant for his arrest for "Russophobic statements":
Archive

But, wouldn't you know it, it turns out that the above clip is two sentences spliced together from different parts of the conversation, and aren't even in the right order. Here's a larger continuous clip with both sentences, where the "money spent" is simply for supporting Ukraine:
View attachment 5141944

Congratulations, Russia, you played yourself.
Lindsey Graham is a massive faggot. No matter what he does. The only thing he is good at is he knows Trump will be back in 2024 and he said other Republicans should work with him not against him. Graham at least knows Trump is the future of the Republican party and the country. But he is still a snake and can't be trusted.
 
I'm kinda shocked Prigozhin gets to sperg out and badmouth MoD, Shoigu personally and entire generals, all the while rolling around with his gang in a foreign country, killing citizens of another country that we aren't even technically at war with (according to Kremlin).
Officially he's fucking nothing, a nobody, yet acts like he's a big deal. Really interested to see how this ends for this particular individual (who deserves life in prison, at the very least).
You'd know better than me; isn't criticizing the MoD a crime in Russia?

It seems clear Prigozhin's a government asset at least; Wagner, IRA, and who knows what else seems like a great way for the government do deniable shit, obfuscate official reports, and do the shadier parts of propaganda and intel ops without actually being linked to it. But Progozhin's an asset just because he was chosen to provide these services, which means when it's time to cut him loose he's not going to get special treatment just because he was able to provide some cannonfodder and fucked with an election that one time. At the rate he's going, he either can't see more than 2 days into the future, has a major deathwish, or has a 19D chess plan to storm the Kremlin, kill Putin, and declare himself Tsar before the "special military operation" is over.
 
We all thought Putin would be nuts to launch an invasion of Ukraine given his military's endemic corruption issues and total lack of preparedness.
Yes, though this is generally presented as an institutional failure. Too many Yes Men, or little lies becoming bigger as they go up the chain.

Poisoning a foreign head of state is a clear, personal interaction. It's not abstracted away as it will specifically deal at Putin's level of Head of State.
It's one thing for the Defense and Intelligence organizations to claim they have everything worked out to take Kiev in a few days. It's another for Putin to think poisoning Lukashenko wouldn't cause an international shit show.
I also didn't say he was poisoned
Didn't say you did, it's just a subject that is brought up a lot and it seemed worth talking about.
 
Also this speculation shit about Putin maybe poisoning Lukashenko is sort of gay, like when people were speculating on Putin's health after the article came out that was pretty much "This is legit, Trust me bro, we got an Email claiming he has double ass cancer, and its signed by a guy who assures me he's Putin's Doctor...'s college roomate".

Luka is nearly 70, and living a former Soviet Republic dictator life style. Nigga really doesn't need any KGB involvement for there to be health issues.

Would Putin poison another head of state? Yes, we know he would.
Would he poison one of his few allies when there isn't a more pliable successor in the wings? He's crazy, not stupid. Its been a decade in Syria and he hasn't hung Asad out to dry ffs.

It's funny, you look at the US military expenditure and it's shocking how little the US has even tried since World War II. Sure, the US sent a bunch of guys to Vietnam to die in the jungle, and that's one of the most important events in recent history, but that whole war that lasted multiple decades had a mere fraction of the spending WWII used in 4 years. The US won the Gulf War in 7 months, singlehandedly, with less money than they've currently sent to Ukraine. With all this military spending, most citizens don't even know what wars the US is even in. Even if they were ridiculously corrupt and 90% of the money put into the military was lost in the bureaucracy, the US would still be the undisputed strongest nation in the world. The idea that anyone could claim that the US is actually trying in this war is laughable, but that's exactly what people in the Russia thread are saying. They say Ukraine is just a puppet that actually represents the full might of NATO, and yet that's exactly what happens. Every single page, someone the the Russia thread will unironically claim that this war, this tiny little war in eastern Europe, this is the straw that will cause the US to start a civil war and destroy western civilization as we know it. The US, after seeing 10% of their military budget get wasted, will have no choice but to start a nuclear war of annihilation because they know there is no way to defeat superior Russia.
One of the things to remember about US military budgets vs nearly any other country is how much of that budget is soldier pay and welfare. US military members are some of the best paid soldiers in the world, maybe the best paid. US Military also over pays for gear to because that over payment is for guaranteed supplies of spare parts and components.

I don't think the Russians have been using anything from the WW2 era. The T-62 is more like mid cold car and the T-54/55 is like early cold war. Very early cold war. Like late 40's and early 50's.
The T-54 process started in 44/45 where the need for a better T-34 was identified but design work on what would become the T-54 (project 80085 or whatever gave numbers the commies used) didn't begin until 1947.
So its probably a bit of an exageration to say it started while Hitler was drawing breath, it'd be technically correct. Which is the best kind of correct.

I'm kinda shocked Prigozhin gets to sperg out and badmouth MoD, Shoigu personally and entire generals, all the while rolling around with his gang in a foreign country, killing citizens of another country that we aren't even technically at war with (according to Kremlin).
Officially he's fucking nothing, a nobody, yet acts like he's a big deal. Really interested to see how this ends for this particular individual (who deserves life in prison, at the very least).
It seems clear Prigozhin's a government asset at least; Wagner, IRA, and who knows what else seems like a great way for the government do deniable shit, obfuscate official reports, and do the shadier parts of propaganda and intel ops without actually being linked to it. But Progozhin's an asset just because he was chosen to provide these services, which means when it's time to cut him loose he's not going to get special treatment just because he was able to provide some cannonfodder and fucked with an election that one time. At the rate he's going, he either can't see more than 2 days into the future, has a major deathwish, or has a 19D chess plan to storm the Kremlin, kill Putin, and declare himself Tsar before the "special military operation" is over.
Chef is setting himself up to be a player, maybe THE player, after Putin croaks. He is a beacon of progress and corruption tamped down to functional levels. My guess is he's got some Oligarchs backing him already.
He stays tucked in the boys because no FSB operative is going to get in there to have him suicide out of a window.
But he's playing a careful game, he's criticizing the government and the handling of the war and corruption but without really naming any names.


Turkey has played both sides off the middle for decades now, and at this point its playing a very dangerous game. The Turkish economy is a joke, they are still reeling from that earthquake and the Turks are now so wedded to the Orthodox vs. Muslim conflict in the Caucuses the blow back can be catastrophic. Especially if the Muslim Worlds major food supplier, Ukraine, decides to take an interest. Turkey cannot afford for Ukraine to win the war outright, and make no mistake Erdogan knows this. Iran is already in deep shit because Ukraine is preparing to sever the food shipments to that country. They can recover by selling out to India and China, but the rest of the Arab world cannot afford to be cut off from Ukraine and there is a dawning realization in Kiev at just how much power they hold over the middle east simply by providing the bread those states need to survive.

Combine that with a victorious military and Turkey's dream of being the whip hand of the Arab world is ruined. Kiev may end up holding it. Especially if the economic house of cards in Ankara collapses entirely. Erdogan will absolutely do what he can to prevent an outright Ukrainian victory in this war. If Ukraine wins, the Turkish position in the Caucuses and potentially even the arab world is in peril.

I try not to over wonkinate on things that far out being the that Ukraine war is far from decided. But Turkey's attempt to be the "third way" pisses off both Iran and Saudi Arabia, and Israel isn't too thrilled because they are comfortable playing SA & Iran off each other and a third axis destabilizes that. So you have Jew & Persian mutual interest that we haven't seen since Operation Opera.

Even if this ends in a way that goes in Turkey's favor, they are likely to see more spoilers to shit on their ambitions.

As for Ukraine in the Caucuses, if - and its a big if at this point - if they can secure Crimea, and if Daddy America blesses it, it wouldn't surprise me to see Ukraine decide that Georgia also needs to get back their territories so they can also join NATO.

You aren't seeing that sort of action now because Russia has the material capacity to run a second war with Georgia without affecting their operations in Ukraine very much.
This isn't some Vatnik "Russia is holding back their strength and totally running the war perfectly, its a clear plan to deplete NATO's forces :smug:" stance. I just mean they have something like 1200 fighters of various vintages, and hundreds more tanks. They cannot commit the totality of their air or ground forces Ukraine because they need to be able to respond to threats from US/China (and now Finland. Lol. Thanks Putin) and keep their top-of-line shit in reserve. If another conflict started, they'd just dip into those reserves.

(Also you forgot about Ukraine's 280 million Polish NATO mercenaries, minus the 40,000 that were dying every hour in Bahkmut when tallying forces.)
 
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You'd know better than me; isn't criticizing the MoD a crime in Russia?

It seems clear Prigozhin's a government asset at least; Wagner, IRA, and who knows what else seems like a great way for the government do deniable shit, obfuscate official reports, and do the shadier parts of propaganda and intel ops without actually being linked to it. But Progozhin's an asset just because he was chosen to provide these services, which means when it's time to cut him loose he's not going to get special treatment just because he was able to provide some cannonfodder and fucked with an election that one time. At the rate he's going, he either can't see more than 2 days into the future, has a major deathwish, or has a 19D chess plan to storm the Kremlin, kill Putin, and declare himself Tsar before the "special military operation" is over.
Laws are for the serfs, and whoever ends up on Putin's shitlist. Wagner is by all means illegal, and Prigozhin is by definition a criminal.
Until recently Wagner existed to provide Kremlin with plausible deniability as they get up to some shady business in some foreign shitholes, it worked. But in Ukraine that facade was practically blown away, so it's not clear to me what's even the point anymore. It's not even an open secret anymore, I don't even know what to call it at this point.

And in other news, Ukraine supposedly drone-bombed Moscow, or at least tried - all I have is questions.
 

A drone attack on the Russian capital Moscow was launched by Ukraine, Russia's defence ministry has said.
News agency Reuters reported Russia's defence ministry saying: "This morning, the Kyiv regime launched a terrorist drone attack on targets in the city of Moscow.
"Three of them were suppressed by electronic warfare, lost control and deviated from their intended targets.
"Another five drones were shot down by the Pantsir-S surface-to-air missile system in the Moscow region."
There were no reports of deaths.
Ukraine has not publicly acknowledged launching attacks against targets inside Russia.

Russia is claiming the drone attack on Moscow is definitely a TRUE and HONEST™ Ukrainian attack, and definitely not a false flag designed to increase war support, and any similarities to that time Putin totally didn't blow up a bunch of his own apartment buildings to justify bombing Chechyna, is just a coincidence.

Of course if this somehow really was a Ukrainian op that brings us back to the most pressing question we've had in the entire war: what the air defence doing?
 
You'd know better than me; isn't criticizing the MoD a crime in Russia?

It seems clear Prigozhin's a government asset at least; Wagner, IRA, and who knows what else seems like a great way for the government do deniable shit, obfuscate official reports, and do the shadier parts of propaganda and intel ops without actually being linked to it. But Progozhin's an asset just because he was chosen to provide these services, which means when it's time to cut him loose he's not going to get special treatment just because he was able to provide some cannonfodder and fucked with an election that one time. At the rate he's going, he either can't see more than 2 days into the future, has a major deathwish, or has a 19D chess plan to storm the Kremlin, kill Putin, and declare himself Tsar before the "special military operation" is over.
The US tried to do kind of the same thing Blackwater but it didn't work so well. The Blackwater mercs were basically killing civilians and some other stuff. The US government tried to deny it it because Blackwater is a private company. But the US government was the one paying them. They were hired by the government. So it got back to the US government anyway.

@Ghostse
I was thinking the T-54/55 was from the late 40's. But I didn't hear about the Russians breaking out T-34-85's or IS-2's in Ukraine. Not yet anyway. I know the DPR and LPR are using some WW2 vintage small arms and I know the Maxim is still being used over there at least by Ukraine and the LPR DPR fighters. I think the Maxim is from the late 19th century or very early 20th.
 
I don't think the Russians have been using anything from the WW2 era. The T-62 is more like mid cold car and the T-54/55 is like early cold war. Very early cold war. Like late 40's and early 50's.
I specified *designed* which in all honesty was still a little bit of an exaggeration since the T-54/55 only officially began its design period in like 1947, however it was itself an evolution of an earlier T-44 project which was a mid-war design so I am kinda sorta technically correct

Also I guess air raids in moscow are shaping up to be a regular thing again. Neat.

Really takes me back to late 2004 when the US was celebrating its capture of Tel Keppe in Iraq after 9 months of spamming Blackwater Papa John PMC mercs recruited from US jails with mothballed M48s at the town after having been routed from Baghdad, Mosul, and Basra and having been forced to activate the draft to stop a complete collapse of the front line, only for the Iraqi Air Force to start launching raids against Washington DC with impunity while Saddam's republican guard launch border incursions every week against Arizona.
 
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I specified *designed* which in all honesty was still a little bit of an exaggeration since the T-54/55 only officially began its design period in like 1947, however it was itself an evolution of an earlier T-44 project which was a mid-war design so I am kinda sorta technically correct

Also I guess air raids in moscow are shaping up to be a regular thing again. Neat.

Really takes me back to late 2004 when the US was celebrating its capture of Tel Keppe in Iraq after 9 months of spamming Blackwater Papa John PMC mercs recruited from US jails with mothballed M48s at the town after having been routed from Baghdad, Mosul, and Basra and having been forced to activate the draft to stop a complete collapse of the front line, only for the Iraqi Air Force to start launching raids against Washington DC with impunity while Saddam's republican guard launch border incursions every week against Arizona.
It was more like the US thought that Blackwater mercs could get away with killing civilians and fucking stuff up. But they couldn't. The same thing Russia would probably do with Wagner. We didn't commit the war crime. Wagner did. You can blame us.
 
It was more like the US thought that Blackwater mercs could get away with killing civilians and fucking stuff up. But they couldn't. The same thing Russia would probably do with Wagner. We didn't commit the war crime. Wagner did. You can blame us.
Honestly im still trying to process the fact that russia's war effort is being partially led by a scuffed Oscar Dirlewanger/Mr Krabs knockoff

Speaking of which.....
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