The Native American Atrocities - They weren't all nature loving pansies

[Gender: Xenomorph]

I was reading some native american folk tales, and at one point, this dude just beats up this other dude for his gf. It was his girlfriend now, and everyone else treated this as normal?

In another folk tale, a crone kidnapped (yes kidnapped) two kids from their parents, which kinda just stopped giving a shit. The crone raised the children as her own (slaves?) and made them do labor around the house.

The native americans were pretty fucked up savages and their culture and traiditions is questionable at best. What other fucked up stuff did you hear about native americans?

 

[mindlessobserver]

Wait, this is a revelation to you? My brother in christ, when the Spanish arrived in the new world they were able to conquer the Aztec Empire because the local tribes on the coast of Mexico has been subjected to horrendous depredation by Tenochtitlan. We're talking being forced to hand over a tithe of sons and daughters to the Aztecs so they could be ritually slaughtered and then eaten by the Priests and Nobles in their religious feasts. When the Spanish showed up, they were a couple hundred dudes, leading an Army of thousands of very angry local tribes.

This is the account of one Spanish Conquistador, Bernal Diaz, of the conquest of the Aztecs by Hernan Cortez.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/32475/32475-h/32475-h.htm

For the next five days we stood at night under arms on the causeway, the brigantines lying on each side in the lake, while one half of our cavalry kept patrolling about Tlacupa, where our baggage and baking-house were; the other half being stationed near our camp. As soon as the day began to dawn, the Mexicans renewed the attack upon our encampment, which they were determined to take by storm.

Similar attacks were likewise made on the encampments of Sandoval and Cortes, until we changed our plan of operation. The Mexicans in the meantime made solemn sacrifices every day in the large temple on the Tlatelulco, and celebrated their feasts. Each time the infernal drum resounded from the temple, accompanied by the discordant noise of shell trumpets, timbrels, horns, and the horrible yells and howlings of the Mexicans. Large fires were kept up on the platform of the temple during the whole night, and each night a certain number of our unfortunate countrymen were sacrificed to their cursed idols, Huitzilopochtli and Tetzcatlipuca, who, in the discourses which the papas held with them, promised that we should all be killed in a few days. As these gods were lying and evil-minded beings, they deceived the Mexicans with these promises in order that they might not be induced to sue for peace with the teules. Unfortunately the Tlascallans and our other allies began to put faith in these oracles after our last defeat.

One morning large bodies of Mexicans again fell upon us with the intention of surrounding us on all sides. Each separate body of the Mexicans was distinguished by a particular dress and certain warlike devices, and regularly relieved each other in battle. In the midst of their fierce attacks they constantly cried out, "You are a set of low-minded scoundrels, you are fit for nothing, and you neither know how to build a house nor how to cultivate maise. You are a pack of[Pg 92] worthless fellows, and only come to plunder our town. You have fled away from your own country and deserted your own king; but before eight days are past there will not be one of you left alive. Oh! you miserable beings, you are so bad and beastly that even your very flesh is not eatable. It tastes as bitter as gall!"

It is most probable that after they had feasted all the bodies of several of our companions, the Almighty, in his mercy, had turned the flesh bitter. Against the Tlascallans they threw out more terrible language, threatening to turn them all into slaves, fatten some for their sacrifices, and reserve others for rebuilding their houses and tilling the ground.


I highly recommend you read Diaz' account. Its not a book you will be given in any history class today. It reads less like a triumphal conquest novel and more like a science fiction novel where humanity discovered a civilization enslaving, murdering and eating weaker species and goes to war against them.

 

[FatalTater]

Look up Mary Draper Ingles and what she went through.

https://wvexplorer.com/2022/01/10/mary-draper-ingles-new-river-virginia/

https://archive.ph/kgrnj

In fact, look up kids who were taken by Natives after their families were killed. Stockholm Syndrome all over the damn place.

https://listverse.com/2017/11/05/10-pioneer-children-abducted-by-native-americans-who-refused-to-go-home/

https://archive.ph/VvwHV

Then there was a thing that happened near Fort Hall

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Late_Massacre_near_Fort_Hall

https://archive.ph/Dp1vA

I know this stuff isn't folk tales exactly but it's what I've got off the top of my head (complete with archive links.)

 

[Neo-Nazi Rich Evans]

it has been a great many years so i dont recall all the details, but i read geronimo's autobiography and remember he casually mentions doing raiding parties against other tribes and mexicans where his war band would kill men and just take women and children as slaves. this was seen as just a matter of what they did and nothing wrong with it. this is tribal warfare.

this post brings up something which drives me nuts; how modern retelling of natives, no matter the country, always white wash them as innocent ethical hippies who never hurt nobody, they didnt do nuffin. but white people on the other hand are the worse sorts of evil bastards. when the truth is what white people did to some of these tribes pales in comparison to what some of them would do to each other or to white immigrants( i thought the left was suppose to be against violence against immigrants)

 

[mindlessobserver]

The defeat of the British Army under General Braddock in the French and Indian War, at the Battle of Monogahela. Another incident very studiously glossed over in modern historical retellings. I expect the assholes in DC and Northern Virginia will demand Braddock Road be renamed before too long. Can't remember uncomfortable truths. There is a reason "the savage" is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

https://www.britishbattles.com/french-indian-war/battle-of-monongahela-1755-braddocks-defeat/

At the rear of the column the wagon drivers cut their teams free and fled. There was considerable carnage in the river but the Indians did not continue the pursuit beyond the river. Each company had two women permitted to march with it. A number of women and children were killed and scalped.

12 prisoners were stripped naked and dragged back to Fort Duquesne. A prisoner William Smith watched as the prisoners were tortured to death during the night at the river-side.

The remnants of Braddock’s force now commanded by the dispirited and unenthusiastic Colonel Dunbar withdrew to Philadelphia and were later transferred to the North.

The defeat unleashed a wave of Indian attacks on Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania, many settlers being killed or abducted. Indian raids reached almost to Philadelphia. Defence of the three colonies was left to the local administration. The Royal Government had failed in its most important function- protection of its citizens- and would never have the same standing.

 

[Dyn]

Spoiler alert for people who don't know history ; every single culture and society was pretty fucking bad.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Spoiler alert for people who don't know history ; every single culture and society was pretty fucking bad.

But not every culture demanded tribute of fresh meat for food. And by fresh meat I mean humans.

 

[Dyn]

But not every culture demanded tribute of fresh meat for food. And by fresh meat I mean humans.

Mesoamericans were especially wild with it but we all did human sacrifice if you go far enough back.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Mesoamericans were especially wild with it but we all did human sacrifice if you go far enough back.

No. We did not. In fact there is a pretty strong historical record indicating a tension between tribes who engaged in the practice and those who did not. There was, of course, the tension of having to leave a weaker member of the group to die. Like Japanese Obasute. But in some groups such practices were viewed as shameful failures rather then necessities or even moral goods. The ancient Bronze age accounts in the Old Testament of the Hebrew Bible, the early Roman Histories, and the Sumerian stories are also replete with stories of "civilization" encountering this practice and engaging in extreme violence against it.

You are correct in that the practice is common throughout human history. You are incorrect in saying it was universal. Because the Good Guys won.

The problem for our moral story of evil colonialist whiteys however, is the Good Guys won in the old world, while the bad guys won in the new world. This was because the old world had plenty of non human protein sources so killing and eating humans was easily banned. In the new world this was more of a problem, especially after the natives exterminated the mega fauna of North America. Human flesh was the only readily available meat at that point, and the priests and nobles of the new world dined quite judiciously upon it, as befit their station. The suffering and societal trauma this caused utterly meaningless because greed and elite sociopathy is universal in human societies even today.

 

[Dyn]

You are correct in that the practice is common throughout human history. You are incorrect in saying it was universal. Because the Good Guys won.

Human sacrifice was universal if you go far enough back. The "good guys" in your worldview phased out human sacrifice to the gods in favour of human sacrifice just because they thought it was funny to watch. The six acre stone arena they used for it is still a tourist attraction in Rome.

This was because the old world had plenty of non human protein sources so killing and eating humans was easily banned. In the new world this was more of a problem, especially after the natives exterminated the mega fauna of North America. Human flesh was the only readily available meat at that point, and the priests and nobles of the new world dined quite judiciously upon it, as befit their station. The suffering and societal trauma this caused utterly meaningless because greed and elite sociopathy is universal in human societies even today.

That's a pretty interesting theory, who made it up?

 

[mindlessobserver]

That's a pretty interesting theory, who made it up?

The Federal Government of the United States, via the United States National Library of Medicine, Serving by the Authority of the Congress of the United States, Assembled today and published under the reign of our just sovereign, Joseph R. Biden, the 46th President of the United States. catalogue summation and summary. But it IS just a theory. I will give you that. Because its a rather uncomfortable theory. It was proposed in the 1970's and both historians and biologists refused to touch it with a ten foot pole. This was also at the time people were coming to terms with the fact that the Mayan civilization was not a super hippy utopia.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17812682/#:~:text=The%20Aztecs%20also%20consumed%20various,to%20commune%20with%20the%20gods.

Human sacrifice was universal if you go far enough back. The "good guys" in your worldview phased out human sacrifice to the gods in favour of human sacrifice just because they thought it was funny to watch. The six acre stone arena they used for it is still a tourist attraction in Rome.

You DO realize the late stage Roman Games were seen as signals of civilizational decline right? The Roman Catholics to this day go to that "six acre site" every year for a funeral procession. I actually got to attend it a few years ago. It was quite a moment

 

[Dyn]

The Federal Government of the United States, via the United States National Library of Medicine, Serving by the Authority of the Congress of the United States, Assembled under the reign of our just sovereign, Joseph R. Biden, the 46tth President of the United States. catalogue summation and summary.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17812682/#:~:text=The%20Aztecs%20also%20consumed%20various,to%20commune%20with%20the%20gods.

So uh, the summary of the source you linked is in line with almost all credible history on the subject and says the exact polar opposite of the nonsense you just claimed about human flesh being the only available meat protein in the Americas.

Did you not read it?

 

[mindlessobserver]

So uh, the summary of the source you linked is in line with almost all credible history on the subject and says the exact polar opposite of the nonsense you just claimed about human flesh being the only available meat protein in the Americas.

Did you not read it?

Did you not read what I said? I said that the eating of human flesh became the purview of the elite and priestly class as befit their station. Are you implying the Aztec Empeor would deign to eat...bugs? Anthropolists were desperately trying to find an explanation for WHY the Meso Americans engaged in the practice and they came to the uncomfortable realization that sort of jived with the socialist leanings of the time. They did not NEED too, but they did it anyway, because the eating of human flesh became a status symbol for the ruling elites. The peasants could eat the lizards and bugs.

 

[Angry Alt Right Nerd]

One time I was forced to read an article and use it as a reference to write an essay about how sad life is for native americans. The entire article was "oh no these poor native americans have to express their competitive spirit through basketball, if only whitey didn't oppress them they could express themselves by killing each other instead, woe is them".

 

[malleusmaleficarum]

Spoiler alert for people who don't know history ; every single culture and society was pretty fucking bad.

Except for white European settler-colonialism, which brought civilization to the world while beating back the rising tide of color.

 

[Dyn]

Did you not read what I said? I said that the eating of human flesh became the purview of the elite and priestly class as befit their station.

You said that they ate human flesh because they ran out of other sources of meat, which is an insane theory I've never heard before and would be very interested to see a source for that.

Are you implying the Aztec Empeor would deign to eat...bugs?

Yes, I absolutely am. Montezuma ate bugs. This is a completely uncontested fact.

 

[mindlessobserver]

You said that they ate human flesh because they ran out of other sources of meat, which is an insane theory I've never heard before and would be very interested to see a source for that.

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/02/19/archives/aztec-sacrifices-laid-to-hunger-not-just-religion.html#:~:text=The%20Aztecs%20sacrificed%20human%20beings,New%20York%20anthropologist%20has%20suggested.

The Aztecs sacrificed human beings atop their sacred pyramids not simply for religious reasons but because they had to eat people to obtain protein needed in their diet, a New York anthropologist has suggested.

Based on evidence he has gathered, Dr. Michael Harner, a professor of anthropology at the New School for Social Research, contends that in the 15th century, just before the Spanish conquerors arrived in Mexico, the Aztecs had the most cannibalistic culture known to modern anthropology.

https://www.history.com/news/aztec-human-sacrifice-religion

Human Sacrifice: Why the Aztecs Practiced This Gory Ritual​

In addition to slicing out the hearts of victims and spilling their blood on temple altars, the Aztecs likely also practiced a form of ritual cannibalism.

When the Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés and his men arrived in the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlán in 1521, they described witnessing a grisly ceremony. Aztec priests, using razor-sharp obsidian blades, sliced open the chests of sacrificial victims and offered their still-beating hearts to the gods. They then tossed the victims’ lifeless bodies down the steps of the towering Templo Mayor.

Andrés de Tapia, a conquistador, described two rounded towers flanking the Templo Mayor made entirely of human skulls, and between them, a towering wooden rack displaying thousands more skulls with bored holes on either side to allow the skulls to slide onto the wooden poles.

Reading these accounts hundreds of years later, many historians dismissed the 16th-century reports as wildly exaggerated propaganda meant to justify the murder of Aztec emperor Moctezuma, the ruthless destruction of Tenochtitlán and the enslavement of its people. But in 2015 and 2018, archeologists working at the Templo Mayor excavation site in Mexico City discovered proof of widespread human sacrifice among the Aztecs—none other than the very skull towers and skull racks that conquistadors had described in their accounts.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1746929

Doctor Harner is the source of the theory. Now, you can disagree with him, and me, and so I give you freebee counter argument to the thesis, just to show the thesis exists. I find his argument compelling. You seem to not agree @Dyn. Which is your prerogative. This is a subject that causes blood murder in Anthropology and History departments. Because its a REALLY not politically correct one. And its not gone any further then the theory proposition. But it IS a theory, and one that has NOT been disproven because quite honestly nobody wants to touch it because its super not good politically. Especially since Aztec atrocity is indisputable historical fact at this point and the accounts of the Rando Spaniards are probably not hyperbole at all. What the Aztec Civilization got up too truly falls into the questions better left unanswered column for modern American History, Sociologists and Anthropologists. They KNOW they won't like what they find. And they know there is no grant money for it.

 

[RACISM]

Someone find that old anthropology text where they describe slicing a young boys dick lengthwise and all the old men in the village raped the bleeding wound. Red Indians are niggers frankly.

 

[Dyn]

Doctor Harner is the source of the theory. Now, you can disagree with him, and me. I find his argument compelling. You seem to not agree @Dyn. Which is your prerogative.

It's a pretty wild theory and doesn't seem likely but I'm going to read it before I form an opinion.

 

[mindlessobserver]

It's a pretty wild theory and doesn't seem likely but I'm going to read it before I form an opinion.

Holy shit, really?

Okay.

https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1525/ae.1977.4.1.02a00070

Here is the original theory that was subsequently shitcanned by peers. If you want, you can pay for it. Maybe you can find it for free somewhere else.

The paper is entitled

the ecological basis for Aztec sacrifice MICHAEL HARNER​

First published: February 1977.

Published by Columbia University.


They did my boy wrong. He was a good autist who just wanted the truth and was flailing for an explanation. But in trying to explain the actions, he did the unforgivable by...explaining the actions.