Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Death of an Ego]

This isn't meant to be provocative or start shit that would be better left in the mass debates thread.

Many people are hawkishly watching this war for selfish gains on the backs of the dead, which is always the case in a real war which this is. I've rarely spoken about it in the original threads before shit got too spicy and had to be segregated. The only reason I'm posting in this one is that the other is full of people that have consumed the /pol/aide and don't want to listen.

Both Russia and Ukraine have a very long history of ridiculous corruption. But if you are from the US, and you wave a Ukrainian flag to make yourself look better to your peers, you should look into recent US history before sounding off. The same goes for most western european nations. The slow march of totalitarianism is bearing it's poison fruit again in the case of the EU, and as nice as the US can be to live in, it's foreign policies have lead to this proxy showdown in many ways, and the choices of leadership grow thinner with distrust.

With that out of the way, this whole war was an attempt at a power play. One Russia thought they were pushed into a corner by. NATO bullshit actually started this, and that is pure US imperialism and I hate that it came to this. In foreign policy, it is absolutely chef's kiss masterful. But in humanitarian terms, it's a total atrocity. All wars are horrid reflections of the human condition. This one is exceptional due to it's economic nature.

Many many wars have been fought over resources in the past. This one, given that it's a proxy war between one superpower and one major power, raises questions beyond politics. You can bring up Hunter's laptop, you can bring up the twitter files. You can bring up the Clinton server. You can bring up whatever assuages your conscience and political leaning. They are all related.

The fact of the matter is that Russia invaded. They didn't have to, but they jumped the gun(s). Now people are dying for testing of obsolete NATO and Warsaw pact hardware for fucking nothing. People are recording IRL call of duty videos as if it makes a difference. Taxpayer money is funding the shipping of weapons of war to a place that never should have been a battlefield again. For what? Forcing Russia to a negotiation table where they lose by default? Who would agree to that when they still have fight left in them?

The whole thing to me goes beyond geopolitics into the realm of bloodthirsty madness. I only vaguely support Ukraine because Russia in it's current state is worse by various degrees, and they actually didn't have to invade to keep NATO off their backs.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

I always find it rather amusing how NATO is evil American imperialism and Russia is innocent dindu nuffin who just felt threatened, even though the threat was mutual ever since USSR rose to power, avoiding annihilation at the hands of Germany not in the least thanks to Western aid, aiming to spread their influence far and wide by any means necessary, which is the very reason a lot of states joined NATO to begin with. USSR might be dead, but as we can clearly see, Russian imperialism is still alive and kicking (ish).

Am I expected to accept the false premise here, or can we just skip the bullshit? Why do people feel necessary to insert "but NATO" kaveats in their statements? It reminds me of white liberals prefacing their words with "I acknowledge my white privilege" whenever westerners are doing it LOL

It's fair to point out that there's contention between NATO and Russia, but stop portraying latter as the former's victim. It goes contrary to underlying history, overall context and just generally common sense.

 

[Death of an Ego]

NATO was formed to keep the USSR (not the russian people) in check to prevent nuclear war. Over time, it became corrupt itself as all groups with that sort of power do. Pushing too hard led to this. I know you're against this war as I am, but this could have been avoided, vatnik thinking aside.

 

[assertive]

And I'm still here in Germany, waiting for a peace treaty for WW2.

 

[Something Awful]

NATO was formed to keep the USSR (not the russian people) in check to prevent nuclear war. Over time, it became corrupt itself as all groups with that sort of power do. Pushing too hard led to this. I know you're against this war as I am, but this could have been avoided, vatnik thinking aside.

This could have been avoided if Russia didn't invade Ukraine. "NATO bullshit actually started this" and "NATO is corrupt" is just vague, tired cope.

 

[Death of an Ego]

This could have been avoided if Russia didn't invade Ukraine. "NATO bullshit actually started this" and "NATO is corrupt" is just vague, tired cope.

Like it or not, it's the truth. Pushing Russia into the corner NATO did was a masterstroke of short term strategy. It got more countries on board with NATO against Russia, but if that's a short term bargain for a long term loss is yet to be seen. Personally, I see no real reason to shove the Russians into a corner over what is at stake. I'm just a wagie in the US tho, not an unelected bureaucrat from Brussels.

 

[Snekposter]

One of the most striking places this "performative reality" was evident was in computing. They would bring in western computer science professors for "information sharing" and would show them the latest soviet computer machine - so much faster than the western ones! Never mind that the formula being plugged in had been meticulously groomed for the hardware, or that the machine had blown half of its shit-tier QC vaccum tubes in the demo and would be down for a week for reservicing.
The Soviet Professors would talk about how great the potential was, and that the government had put in the order for 5,000 to be built so every soviet university would have its own - order that were then scaled back to 3 machines which were never completed.
This lie was repeated until the 80s, when the Soviets were so far behind western computation - even with stolen designs and shell-company purchases licenses - that they couldn't even pretend to keep up the facade believably.

Another case was the Soviet's first "smart bomb". The bomb didn't lock on to the image of the target, so they pained the target orange. That didn't work so they painted a meter-wide, mile long stripe on the concrete and reprogramed the bomb to follow it. But the demonstration showed a bomb be released and hit kinda near its target. It didn't work, would never work, but the Soviets made sure that NATO knew they were ordering 1,000.

To the first part, about the computers, we actually knew just how shit things were. Their theory was at least as good or better than ours, but practical computing was a decade behind starting in the 1960's and only got worse from there. Here's a neat multi-part series on all of that. Its just that when so many reporters and professors are on the KGB's payroll you can get anything pushed as fact in the West.

As to the bomb, you're misremembering that Paper Skies video. It was a TV guided missile, and since it couldn't discern light green from dark green like US one could, and since the Politburo wanted their test done and done successfully, the pilot suggested they paint the bunker door yellow so it would stand out against the green trees. Which it did. Of course the person who had ordered the painting done had gone and ordered the road leading up to the bunker door painted yellow as well because hey, that will totally help the missile hit its intended target by painting things other than the target identically to the target. Yes, this is the worst logic in the world, especially for people have the term maskirovka to describe their unique talents at camouflage and obfuscation but alas... And since the road had a higher albedo than the door, and was brighter and more attractive to the missile than the door was... the missile diverted at the last minute into the road, completely missing the door. IIRC its the same video where he talks about the brilliance of Russian smekalka. Such as painting a bunker door yellow to fake a successful test for the Soviet Defense Ministry.

 

[Ghostse]

As to the bomb, you're misremembering that Paper Skies video. It was a TV guided missile, and since it couldn't discern light green from dark green like US one could

That's right, it was a 'bunker buster'. Sorry I can't remember all the Soviet Vunderwaffen that had real world performance that exceeded that of the the T-14 and get them muddled together.

 

[Snekposter]

That's right, it was a 'bunker buster'. Sorry I can't remember all the Soviet Vunderwaffen that had real world performance that exceeded that of the the T-14 and get them muddled together.

Road buster more like. Just like all the modern Russian missiles that fly right into outhouses because they see the white-painted high-vis trails that lead up to them.

 

[Ghostse]

NATO was formed to keep the USSR (not the russian people) in check to prevent nuclear war. Over time, it became corrupt itself as all groups with that sort of power do. Pushing too hard led to this. I know you're against this war as I am, but this could have been avoided, vatnik thinking aside.

honest question: Minus Putin not having been in power, Ukraine never leaving the Russian Federation in 91, Ukraine having been in NATO in 2013, or a reprograming of the Russian powers that be to no longer desire a return to Empire/Superpower, how could this have been avoided?

 

[Hall of Cost Payer]

NATO was formed to keep the USSR (not the russian people) in check to prevent nuclear war. Over time, it became corrupt itself as all groups with that sort of power do. Pushing too hard led to this. I know you're against this war as I am, but this could have been avoided, vatnik thinking aside.

Like it or not, it's the truth. Pushing Russia into the corner NATO did was a masterstroke of short term strategy. It got more countries on board with NATO against Russia, but if that's a short term bargain for a long term loss is yet to be seen. Personally, I see no real reason to shove the Russians into a corner over what is at stake. I'm just a wagie in the US tho, not an unelected bureaucrat from Brussels.

NATO is at it's core a defensive alliance. There is no headquarter or NATO plan. There was even an invite for Russia to be part of NATO. But Russia declined that because NATO has rules in place that new members must have a minimum of free elections and some free speech going.

Actually relations between Russia and NATO were kinda positive with the NATO-Russia Founding Act and the Permanent Joint Council.

But when Ukraine started the Orange Revolution and Russia started meddling in their affairs, all that cooled down.

 

[Ghostse]

NATO has rules in place that new members must have a minimum of free elections and some free speech going.

Also members can't attack other members, huge deal breaker for Putin's Russia.

 

[AgendaPoster]

How unexpected... not
[A]

This private information is unavailable to guests due to policies enforced by third-parties.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

@Death of an Ego is certainly right about one thing, Russia didn't have to invade Ukraine to keep NATO off its back, which is all that needs to be said when it comes to that argument.
What sort of threat to Russia by NATO is implied, anyway? I was told it's an existential matter. But I'm pretty sure military invasion is out of the question on the account of nukes, they've been pussyfooting around Russia because of this hypothetical for years despite the growing animosity. And I'm pretty fucking sure that in the entire NATO you wouldn't find a nation who'd support such a thing and allow it to get to that point... at least before the invasion of Ukraine in 2022.
Trade blockade? Putin claims we can do everything ourselves and we don't need West, so that clearly isn't it.
So what is it?

I'll tell you what. Putin thinks he can undo history. He thought he could outplay the West and influence Ukraine to side with him and be absorbed into greater Russia. But he lost, and like any typical gopnik, he forced himself on them after being repeatedly refused. He assumed he could achieve what he couldn't do with smarts using raw strength he thought he had. And again he lost.
The motherfucker is a sore loser playing a victim card.

I'm yet to hear a good explanation as to why Russia and NATO couldn't coexist despite their differences, even with the latter expanding (on a voluntary basis, as it has thus far), which is something I only ever see Russian side argue. While Putin is incessantly seething about it, as far as NATO is concerned, they displayed no intention to threaten Russia militarily. The threat is perceived by vatniks, sure, but it's akin to niggers in crime-ridden US shitholes complaining about the police existing.
The answer is always the same - don't be a nigger.

 

[East_Clintwood]

What sort of threat to Russia by NATO is implied, anyway? I was told it's an existential matter. But I'm pretty sure military invasion is out of the question on the account of nukes, they've been pussyfooting around Russia because of this hypothetical for years despite the growing animosity. And I'm pretty fucking sure that in the entire NATO you wouldn't find a nation who'd support such a thing and allow it to get to that point... at least before the invasion of Ukraine in 2022.
Trade blockade? Putin claims we can do everything ourselves and we don't need West, so that clearly isn't it.
So what is it?

There's a weird vatnik conspiracy theory where they're convinced that NATO is just itching to surprise invade them for some unspecified reason, and that if Ukraine were to join that would be the final piece of the puzzle because we'd be able to station forces right on their border in preparation. Of course none of them can explain why we haven't already done that given the number of borders we share with them. Or how exactly we're supposed to build up the necessary forces without them noticing. Or why it even matters if Russia is so stronk that it can beat NATO etc etc.

 

[draggs]

Trench combat, 2023-style. Ukrainian operator from the 73rd Maritime SOF gets a hat-trick +1.
Telegram link

Spoiler: NSFW, close-contact warfare

View attachment 5169898

Those NAFO people are claiming the last guy shot there (big red beard) was wargonzo lol

I guess we will see

 

[mindlessobserver]

I saw some rumor mongering about Wargonzo being the guy wasted in the Trench Video. Could be the Spec Ops guys were there specifically to waste his ass, but that seems like a real stretch. I would not put much stock in it.

 

[draggs]

If it was him I doubt it was an operation with him as the target, more likely he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time doing some vatnigger reporting

Vatniggers are posting months old pictures of him on telegram to prove he's still alive. atm I have no reason to either think it was him or was not him. He'll post a new video eventually. Or he won't

 

[Snekposter]

Also members can't attack other members, huge deal breaker for Putin's Russia.

Eh, technically speaking the treaty is just held in abeyance so long as the offending parties are at war. The 1974 Greek coup in Cyprus and the Turkish invasion in response would have potentially triggered it, and the current arguments over the Aegean Islands are another potential flashpoint. It does not however abrogate any other pacts between member nations, such as Greece having mutual defense pacts with the US and UK separate from NATO.

So yes, technically speaking if Russia and Ukraine were both NATO members, it could either trigger Art V against the offender if the current state of diplomatic affairs called for it or just be "Let's you and him fight" as everyone cheers on the Slavs and their monkey knife fight while selling and shipping arms to whoever they feel like.

 

[Secret Asshole]

So we had another containment breach in the other thread, just a reminder, don't break containment, yadda yadda. I'm just posting the warning in this thread as well to be fair. Even shitposting. Report people who break containment.

Also, I'm done with just deleting posts. People should know not to break containment, so I'm going to threadban them from both threads and they can only post in the shitty mass debate one. I think that's suitable enough punishment.