Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Post Reply]

You want Ukraine to succeed you need to give them the gear to create the required technological superiority to deal with a much larger enemy.

Ukraine has been given whole nations worth of armaments by this point. If they can't succeed with what they've been gifted so far, then the problem is not with the level of material support.

 

[DumbDude43]

Ukraine has been given whole nations worth of armaments by this point. If they can't succeed with what they've been gifted so far, then the problem is not with the level of material support.

no rofl
amount of tanks handed to ukraine is measured in dozens
amount of tanks russia has available is measured in thousands

similar situation in other weapons and vehicles

 

[Harbinger of Kali Yuga]

Ukraine has been given whole nations worth of armaments by this point. If they can't succeed with what they've been gifted so far, then the problem is not with the level of material support.

Even if that was true, so? Most governments now have smaller armies because they pay the USA for protection; comparing to other nations is meaningless anyway when the other end of the equation is the size of the opponent army and their resources. It's silly to blame the Ukrianians when they're already far more efficient with their materials than the Russians are.

 

[AgendaPoster]

Ukraine has been given whole nations worth of armaments by this point. If they can't succeed with what they've been gifted so far, then the problem is not with the level of material support.

"whole nations" is irrelevant and ambiguous. Which nations?
What Ukraine needs is enough gear, at a high tech enough level, to create superiority against the Russian army, which is larger and comes from a country with significantly more resources, AND is entrenched inside Ukraine.
In short, what Ukraine needs is long range missiles in enough quantities so they don't have to think that assassinating this Russian general is less effective than wiping out a training center. They should be able to do both tasks, daily, without ammo issues.
And they need air superiority so they can obliterate the Russian positions from a safe distance.

 

[nya002]

I think most people in the threads never lived in UA, RUS or BY and were never in a war. Russia had a mutiny in its hands and for now seems to have contained it. In 1918 many armies ended up having mutinies or giving up.

Those who say UA should have taken the moment, don't get it. There was no moment to be taken. Putin now showed that he failed to impose his authority and that if some warlord/general decides to rebel or suddenly refuse to fight it's ok, nothing happens.

With time there will be more mutinies. A Ukrainian with a sense of pride will fight for his country. A Chechen fighter doesn't care about dying heroically on the Ukrainian fields.

Imagine this scenario: a palace coup. A military junta replaces Putin because he was too weak and allowed rapists etc. out of prison to fight and blot the glorious Russian army's name. The military crush the Wagnerites and impose a strict regime like Argentina in the 1970s and repudiate the senseless war costing the country so many lives. The army was just "following orders" and Putin is the only one to blame. Glory, Russia is back on its traditional course.

For officers in a country like Russia, where anything goes if you can pay, the problem is deciding quickly to be on the winning side. If the army revolts against pardoning mutinies then it will be 1918 again.

Russian soldiers have now learnt that taking arms against Russian soldiers and not following orders works, nothing happens.

For those who have not seen it, try to see a film called "The Death of Stalin", it shows well how palace coups work.

 

[NSJAP]

New Perun

 

[nya002]

Ukraine has been given whole nations worth of armaments by this point. If they can't succeed with what they've been gifted so far, then the problem is not with the level of material support.

no, oh troll, maybe the same amount of weapons as the Vatican Swiss Guard. If NATO really wanted to stop the war they could do it very quickly, not by giving a few tanks. NATO is helping drop by drop. Have a few planes over UA firing conventional weapons on Russian forces in UA. Shoot a few missiles. It ends.

Thanks to the ever-present Flightradar24 one could see American airplanes over UA right before the invasion. Once in a while you can see a spy plane over the Black Sea or patrolling the Polish border with UA and the border with RUS, sometimes also over Romania.

 

[Kaizer Ghidorah]

Mercenary and his personal cohort March on the capital and demand concessions from the emperor Russia truly is the third rome

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

"whole nations" is irrelevant and ambiguous. Which nations?
What Ukraine needs is enough gear, at a high tech enough level, to create superiority against the Russian army, which is larger and comes from a country with significantly more resources, AND is entrenched inside Ukraine.
In short, what Ukraine needs is long range missiles in enough quantities so they don't have to think that assassinating this Russian general is less effective than wiping out a training center. They should be able to do both tasks, daily, without ammo issues.
And they need air superiority so they can obliterate the Russian positions from a safe distance.

It'll be helpful when some of the Ukrainians who left at the war's beginning start to return; even if not to fight, they'd still free up manpower previously kept behind the lines in civilian jobs & services. Though I expect that won't really start to happen until things really go sideways for Russia, the Ukrainian state is starting to offer incentives for returning civilians.

And while the tap of Western combat volunteers has slowed some, the arrival of new non-combatant volunteers hasn't slowed; if anything it's increased. Along with the medics who've just went, I know people who have been planning on going to Ukraine for the reconstruction & demining efforts. They couldn't immediately drop everything to fly out last year & needed some time to get things squared-away at home; but these guys have hundreds of years' worth of engineering & demolitions experience between them.

Also, veteran Western volunteers who've been in country since the beginning are being transitioned to training roles, freeing up Ukrainians for further operations & putting their valuable experience to good use; this started in earnest early this year, and it's had a noticable impact.

 

[Ghostse]

Only a moron will believe that shit. While some of the Russian public maybe that stupid, nobody in any position of authority, be it the generals or the oligarchs, is that stupid. Putin can try to spin this as much as he wants, everybody who matters knows he just got punked.

Oh, I'm not saying that anyone at the top has any fucking illusions about what down. Just that's the narrative they will use for the masses. Russian culture has one of those things where the leader can never be wrong or seen to be doing wrong, and underlings will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to explain shit away.

The vatnigger reaction to this has been... interesting. Some are literally talking about "trusting the plan" and have turned a janny in Rostov into Z-anon for using the phrase. The least insane vatniggers are being extremely nitpicky about the use of the word "coup" to describe a private army fighting the national army on the road to the capital. Yep, definitely can't make assumptions about the goal of that operation.

What I love about the "100km from Kiev" meme is that Ukraine is alert and has units ready to stop any incursion.
Wagner practically strolled up to the walls as border guards waved at them, the Russian army was not ready for several hundred armed soldiers to roll upto the capital.

Another topic: Ziggers are kokokoing about how Ukraine is stupid for not exploiting this, but the frontline minefields and troops were unaffected by all the chaos and didn't go away. Funny because at first they were kokokoing about how it was a trap to lure Ukrainians into making costly attacks. Or that it was a show to conceal Wagner movements (???). Now the new delusion is that Wagner will invade from Belarus. The innocent souls don't live in reality, so they are unaware that the border between Ukraine and Belarus are trackless woods and swamps that are now flooded, mined and defended by TDF. There's reasons why the Russians left and never came back to that region.

Pretty much this. Mines don't deactivate just because Putin is being made a 3rd world clownbitch on global TV.
The situation went too fast; No troops or units were pulled from front line positions, all the responders were internal security units. By Chef's own words, Rostov airfield was operating per normal with medevac and CAS flights running as scheduled. I don't even think there was really any in-theater chaos to exploit unless Ukraine had been able to punch through all of the Russian defenses and roll to Rostov.

source: Russian government media
According to this Prigozhin gave in to the demand that maybe kicked this off: That all irregular forces subordinate themselves to the MoD by July 1st. At least the probably like 90%+ of his forces that didn't participate in this. What happens to those that did appears unclear except that they are absolved of their treasonous activities.

Once again, let me remind you there are two Wagners:
One Wagner is full of ex-SOF operators and are serious business. The other wagner is 2nd-stringers who are basically Mobliks with better training. When I talk about "wagner" here I'm only talking about the first group of ex-SOF. The 2nd stringers are likely to get some benefits/special treatment but don't have the leverage the 1st group has.
Sadly as Chef's next layer are all ex-SOF they understand OPSEC & INFOSEC so no one is being a retard on social media or talking to the media, and all the 2nd stringers basically have their phones seized.

The unsourced wonkinating I've been seeing is that Chef and anyone isn't on board with being turned over to Russian military command are being moved to Belarus where they will be doing training of Russian forces. Anyone who wants to leave Wagner will be allowed to time out their contract this way. There is supposedly some Spetnaz/VDV commander being selected as the "manager" of Wagner-in-Ukraine - they will take over all tactical Wagner deployment and (again unsourced and from negotiations) essentially have the authority to tell MoD "no, this is retarded, we aren't doing that" as Chef did. Chef & his inner-circle will remain in power as basically "HR Managers" - no battlefield authority or access, but if soldiers think they are being mistreated by MoD they will have a non-Chain-of-Command sources to complain to.

If you think this all sounds suspiciously competent for Russia, remember that these are Ex-SOF from other countries, and they know what competent command/management looks like. They are also getting put into harms way, so won't tolerate management they don't trust. They have skills in not just shooting people but leaving places they don't like, and (especially with the VDV losses in the 100% successful Kiev feint) Russia is short on experienced operators.
In short, They have incredible leverage as Russia's most skilled troops in theater, and the understanding and incentive to demand competent command. (Wagner's 2nd string however might be straight fucked.)

Anyway, this is why Chef is still alive and is safe for the forseeable future: the SF branch of Wagner knows him and trusts him to not just send them into a minefield and leave them to die. If Putin arrests or kills Prigozhin, Wagner immediately evaporates of anyone with any skill, and Putin cannot afford to lose his best unit right now.

Addtionally, these guys are humans not robotic killing machines. They have feelings and emotions, and if Putin suddenly pisses them off not only have you lost several hundred of your best guys, they are very likely to not be kindly disposed towards Russia - "Hey Zelensky, would you like to hire 5000 special forces guys with intimate knowledge of Russia force distribution and planning? They say they they'll work for a discount rate as long as they get to fuck up Russian forces."

According to some Russian ""journalist"", apparently some of the military peons who allowed Wagnerites to pass are getting detained and possibly charged with treason. Not surprising, but still LOL. No immunity and dacha in Belarus for you!

We need a scapegoat, Comrade, and you don't have any friends in the Politburo.

They most definitely did not go on a full scale attack yet. It's what our friends in the other thread have been mocking as "probing". There is probably some concern about the loss of limited Western vehicles, and how will that look for their allies, seeing their pricey modern tanks burning in some field. It's a lot of responsibility and a lot of expectation that they "have to get it done", but war doesn't work like that. You cannot just launch assaults so some general in Washington or Berlin is pleased with your efforts and to improve your image with the West for more gibs.

What you fail to understand is that the counterattack hasn't "failed", its only just started, or is about to start. All the attacks we've seen have been probing attacks and reconnaissance in force. Ukraine hasn't actually committed the majority of its army to a major push yet. And they almost certainly will do that now because recent events present their best chance. They will take the land bridge to deny Putin a bargaining chimp. The Russians will not keep Crimea; Ukraine has made it clear that retaking it is one of their war goals now. Neither NATO or Ukraine want Russia to keep it at this point and Ukraine will never be secure until they have it back. Guarantees mean dick, which was shown when the U.S. did fuck and all to protect Ukrainian territorial integrity in 2014 despite the Budapest Memorandum; Ukraine wants full NATO membership because that's the only way to prevent any chance of future conflict, and Ukraine will only gain membership if it controls all of its territory.

Yeah, there hasn't been any "counter attack" just a bunch of battles along the front. This isn't all that different from 2022.

I'm still maintaining that Ukraine won't do any major push until September and maybe not till October/november to provide minimum time for a Russian response before winter and then Mud season. It will also let them wear down Russian troops & command - if there is constant reports of Ukrainian attacks and movements, when the big one comes it might get lost in the noise and give them a few more precious hours before Russia responds. (edit: before anyone makes any accusations of cope: yes, this is going to wear down Ukraine's troops too. It'll be a question of stamina. But as they are initiating the attacks, it won't be taxing thier command/battle space awareness)

Winter is a hell of a time for campaigning, and it didn't do Russia any favors last year. They may even skip any major action this year because Russia is definitely expecting it and ready.

The probing attacks seem to be more about mine clearing and removing Russian hardpoints.
I think they're overly costly for what they're getting done, but I'm not a general and don't know what they know or are planning.

hell, watch the Ukrainians show what a real psy-op looks like by slacking off the probing attacks, doing a force stand down, and then busting out another Kharkiv when Russia relaxes.
Around Cossacks, never relax

 

[Blatant hypocrite]

Prigozhin wants things for himself, and humiliating Russia is merely an unfortunate side effect. Even if he asked for ten billion dollars, a megayacht, a tactical nuke and a pony, it would likely remain under the table so as not to embarrass Putin in front of NATO.

I'm sure we will find out at some point, but I doubt it really involves Shoigu and Gerasimov. Unless he wants to take their place and make Ukraine his problem,

...it's also possible that he simply lost his nerve, and will throw himself out a window soon.

 

[Night Crawler]

I watched Anders Puck Nielsen video about the coup. He said that the attempt to kill Prigozhin in Ukraine was a false flag. For once I disagree with him. I don't think it was a false flag. I Think the Russians tried to kill Prigozhin. It could have been Putin or Shoigu. Prigozhin was running his mouth too much. All those videos of him yelling in the camera and showing dead bodies got to someone. But if he thinks the attempts on his life are going to stop now he is in for a rude surprise. lol

as long as wagner remains as a significant fighting force, prigozhin has leverage and protection.

Prigozhin was already running his mouth before this. The Russian government supposedly tried to kill him. He has already been rocking the boat. They will kill him soon. Prigozhin and Wagner have no more use to Putin. Once they start doing things like this then it's over. This kind of thing can't be tolerated and won't be allowed to go unpunished. It might take them a while to kill him but they will.

Since now nobody believes anything they hear or see with their own eyes when it disagrees with their truth, even if Russia leaves UA and Crimea (while keeping their treaty base in Sevastopol), Putiska can have his TVs and internet trolls say mission accomplished, we were there to denazify and demilitarise Ukraine and we won - see, now they can't defend themselves and are occupied by NATO, but without the Nazis.

No matter what happens, the other side & the other thread will spin it as a victory. Yesterday, courtesy of Flightradar24, one could track many "special airforce planes" leaving Moscow, including the "Rossiya" one, used to transport Putin (but also used sometimes to bring expelled diplomats from abroad). It seems that quite a lot of important people got scared.

Wagner troops going to BY is also suspicious. Are they going there to then attack UA from the North? This could all be a feint, who knows.

I doubt it. The look on Putin's face didn't say this was all a set up. This was 100% real and Putin is pissed. Prigozhin will be killed soon. He was like Putin's attack dog. He turned on his master and he will be put down. They will wait for things to calm down a bit. Then he will be killed. He might be dumb enough to think he will get his way. Keep in mind that he was a criminal and caterer before he became the leader of his own merc group. Even Wagner couldn't change the outcome of the war in Ukraine for Putin. Putin can't afford to leave him alive. No matter where he goes they will hunt him down and kill him. It's head on a pike kind of thing. They will make an example out of him. Belarus Africa it doesn't matter. They will find him and kill him.

@World in Scarlet

So while the counteroffensive did not outright fail, it also did not succeed either.

From what I have heard the counteroffensive is still ongoing so I don't see how it didn't succeed. I think it would be better to wait till it over to start calling it a failure or success.

 

[World in Scarlet]

I think it would be better to wait till it over to start calling it a failure or success.

You're right, I should have said "it hasn't succeeded yet" or "the fighting is harder than people expected", since Ukrainian government officials have said as much.
I appreciate that the Ukrainians switched gear and changed their tactics, unlike the Russians who pick a target and then slam their head against the wall until they run out of men and materiel.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

as long as wagner remains as a significant fighting force, prigozhin has leverage and protection.

That's the thing; Prigozhin's deal eliminates Wagner as a fighting force. Wagner troops will be merged back into the normal military. The one's that joined him in the coup will be given immunity, and...I guess told to fuck off. Either way, Wagner, as an independent force, is done.

So while the counteroffensive did not outright fail, it also did not succeed either.

Its too early to pronounce success or failure. It really hasn't even started, to be honest.

Yeah, there hasn't been any "counter attack" just a bunch of battles along the front. This isn't all that different from 2022.

I'm still maintaining that Ukraine won't do any major push until September and maybe not till October/november to provide minimum time for a Russian response before winter and then Mud season. It will also let them wear down Russian troops & command - if there is constant reports of Ukrainian attacks and movements, when the big one comes it might get lost in the noise and give them a few more precious hours before Russia responds.

Winter is a hell of a time for campaigning, and it didn't do Russia any favors last year. They may even skip any major action this year because Russia is definitely expecting it and ready.

The probing attacks seem to be more about mine clearing and removing Russian hardpoints.
I think they're overly costly for what they're getting done, but I'm not a general and don't know what they know or are planning.

hell, watch the Ukrainians show what a real psy-op looks like by slacking off the probing attacks, doing a force stand down, and then busting out another Kharkiv when Russia relaxes.
Around Cossacks, never relax

Yeah, this is what I figure. Everybody has been told for so long to expect a massive counterattack in the summer time, Russia has put all its stock into blunting the "inevitable" attack, eliminating any potential element for surprise. Waiting till the end of the year, when the forces at the front are worn down, and the minefields are mostly clear makes far more sense, and could give the Ukrainians the element of surprise back.

 

[Thomas Talus]

...it's also possible that he simply lost his nerve, and will throw himself out a window soon.

If I were in his position, I would make it very clear to anyone who was listening that I would not be going above the ground floor of any building voluntarily.

 

[Ghostse]

From what I have heard the counteroffensive is still ongoing so I don't see how it didn't succeed.

Germany Telegram accounts on June 6, 1944 at 8:30am:
The Allied landings have been a total disaster, they are still on the beaches being shelled and gunned down. 10 million Polish airborne troops have been killed tried to paradrop into The French Socialist People's Republic last night. Hitler is the louvre bathroom right now taking a giant dump, completely unworried. Utter Allied failure, total Anglo death.
*37 pictures of the same swamped Sherman from different angles*

I watched Anders Puck Nielsen video about the coup. He said that the attempt to kill Prigozhin in Ukraine was a false flag.

if it was a "false flag" it originated from inside Russia.

Even if we want to pretend that it was a magic storm shadow that managed to penetrate russian airdefense then loop around and hit Wagner's camp from the east, that doesn't explain the attack helicopters doing follow up rocket attacks. It might not have been ordered by Shoigu, but it wasn't a NATO op, there aren't enough bodies for it to have been CIA, and zero arabs were in play so it wasn't MI-6. it could be FSB, but I would think the KGB would have gone the extramile to make sure he was gotten, unless they were jusy trying to provoke the response we saw, and if they wanted that reponse they wouldn't need to try to task missiles.
And I don't think it was Putin because Putin was too slow to respond to the Wagner mobilization; if you take a shot a guy, you don't go to bed right after pulling the trigger.

That's the thing; Prigozhin's deal eliminates Wagner as a fighting force. Wagner troops will be merged back into the normal military. The one's that joined him in the coup will be given immunity, and...I guess told to fuck off. Either way, Wagner, as an independent force, is done.

We'll see how it shakes out, but what I was hearing is the deal just "nationalizes" Wagner's Ukrainian forces. The (again, unsourced) thing I was reading was Wagner in Ukraine will operate as basically an SF command inside of the Russian military, with some units like the prison brigades and rear security being turned over wholesale. Anyone not on board with this gets to ride out their contracts training Russian forces in Belarus.

The don't want to piss off the ex-SF guys in Wagner, and they don't want to piss off their SF/ex-SF friends by arresting/murdering them. Putin will be looking for scalps, but he's going to have to bide his time if he wants them from Chef & Wagner.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

The "Ukrainian offensive didn't really start" does sound like cope, but assuming they probed possible angles of attack and didn't find a weakness for a rapid breakthrough, then said rapid breakthrough simply isn't going to happen unless something radically changes. It was never going to be easy, please don't delude yourself.

But if you really want to know, just look at the forces committed and you'll probably have your answer, whether it's the real deal or they "haven't actually started".

One thing remains true though - Russia isn't winning this war, Kremlin finds itself having to defend their marginal gains, compared to the original goals that had to be scaled back both because they underestimated Ukraine and overestimated themselves.

 

[Night Crawler]

You're right, I should have said "it hasn't succeeded yet" or "the fighting is harder than people expected", since Ukrainian government officials have said as much.
I appreciate that the Ukrainians switched gear and changed their tactics, unlike the Russians who pick a target and then slam their head against the wall until they run out of men and materiel.

To be fair they did have some issues which you stated like the minefields. It's just not going as well and as fast as people hoped. Mostly not as fast. From watching the Perun video it seems the dam being blown had messed up the Ukrainians plans a bit. I am sure they will work around it because they don't have much choice.

The "Ukrainian offensive didn't really start" does sound like cope, but assuming they probed possible angles of attack and didn't find a weakness for a rapid breakthrough, then said rapid breakthrough simply isn't going to happen unless something radically changes. It was never going to be easy, please don't delude yourself.

But if you really want to know, just look at the forces committed and you'll probably have your answer, whether it's the real deal or they "haven't actually started".

One thing remains true though - Russia isn't winning this war, Kremlin finds itself having to defend their marginal gains, compared to the original goals that had to be scaled back both because they underestimated Ukraine and overestimated themselves.

That would be cope from the Ukrainian version of vatniggers. lol

The Ukrainians counteroffensive is happening and has been for a while. They had some issues like minefields and the Russians have actually managed to setup some decent defensive positions. I know about the losses of Western vehicles. Like 17-18 Bradley's 4 or 5 Leopards and so on. I don't know how lost they were. The US said they would replace like 15 of the lost Bradley's because they have thousands of them. But it's not all of the Western vehicles and equipment the Ukrainians have. They still have a lot of stuff sitting back for a big offensive.

It's not going as well as some people hoped and it's not moving as quickly as they hoped either. A lot of the soldiers used in the Ukrainian counteroffensive are new. They have no battle experience. Like Perun said mistakes are bound to happen. The important thing is they learn from them and don't repeat them.

@Ghostse

if it was a "false flag" it originated from inside Russia.

Even if we want to pretend that it was a magic storm shadow that managed to penetrate russian airdefense then loop around and hit Wagner's camp from the east, that doesn't explain the attack helicopters doing follow up rocket attacks. It might not have been ordered by Shoigu, but it wasn't a NATO op, there aren't enough bodies for it to have been CIA, and zero arabs were in play so it wasn't MI-6. it could be FSB, but I would think the KGB would have gone the extramile to make sure he was gotten, unless they were jusy trying to provoke the response we saw, and if they wanted that reponse they wouldn't need to try to task missiles.
And I don't think it was Putin because Putin was too slow to respond to the Wagner mobilization; if you take a shot a guy, you don't go to bed right after pulling the trigger.

I think Anders said Wagner did it and lied about the Russians doing it. It's a really weird false flag. I think it was real. Someone back in Moscow got sick of Prigozhin running his mouth and tried to kill him.

 

[DumbDude43]

That's the thing; Prigozhin's deal eliminates Wagner as a fighting force. Wagner troops will be merged back into the normal military. The one's that joined him in the coup will be given immunity, and...I guess told to fuck off. Either way, Wagner, as an independent force, is done.

>will
maybe, but it hasn't happened yet. until the day it actually happens, chef remains in charge of his own private army, and that makes it near impossible for his enemies to arrest or assassinate him (and if they try he might go rogue for real)

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

The "Ukrainian offensive didn't really start" does sound like cope, but assuming they probed possible angles of attack and didn't find a weakness for a rapid breakthrough, then said rapid breakthrough simply isn't going to happen unless something radically changes. It was never going to be easy, please don't delude yourself.

I'm pretty sure everyone here was aware that:
1) A second Kharkiv-style thunder-run was not likely to happen
2) Some amount of 'new' Western gear is gonna end up destroyed

AFAIK Ukraine is still making progress in almost all directions, and that's with stupid high OPSEC coming from the Ukrainian side, and the only reports coming from the Russian side focusing on the Wagner circus stunt with a few highly concerned muffled pleas for immediate close air support come from milbloggers on the frontline.

But if you really want to know, just look at the forces committed and you'll probably have your answer, whether it's the real deal or they "haven't actually started".

Looking at the forces committed is why people are saying it is just probing attacks, mine clearing and shaping operations.

Now I could be dead wrong, and either Ukraine didn't have the assault forces other sources were claiming they had, or Zaluzny & Co. know something I don't and so are holding said forces back from fighting when the inevitable Spetsnaz counter-strike with 15000 T-14 Armata tanks supported by Su-57 fighters happens.
Until then, I'm going to assume that the Ukrainian armed forces haven't committed their assault reserves because they are not ready to yet.

One thing remains true though - Russia isn't winning this war, Kremlin finds itself having to defend their marginal gains, compared to the original goals that had to be scaled back both because they underestimated Ukraine and overestimated themselves.

The fact that Ukraine is going on a counter-offensive at all after over a year of conventional conflict with Russia would have been unconceivable for most of us to think about prior to 2022.

Prigo's recent shenanigans are the icing on the cake, because by May 2022 Russia had demonstrated itself a paper-tiger in terms of military prowess & projection before the world, but now the world also knows its internal security situation is not as tight as the Kremlin would have us believe....