Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Oof, those are going to hurt. They won't be getting parts to build a new one for a while.
I believe the S400, like PAC-3 and unlike S300, separates out the Command and Radar modules, so very likely the command crew won't need expensive replacement.

The Russians learned pretty quick, which is why they don't loiter behind treelines & pop up attacks, except for rare occasions like at the beginning counter-offensive, when they were offered a target-rich environment like those pinned-down Ukrainian armor/APC columns.

It's not been talked about much because the ATGM threat to helicopters is lumped in with the rest, but they definitely have caused another change in operational tactics & doctrine for both sides.
From accounts I read, the long-range Russian missles don't get a chance to get used very often because of that exact situation: using MAPAD or ATGM (or even artillery with proximity fuses) makes them a non-starter - just takes a hidden team with a rocket to ruin a Helo's day. The KA-52 in that video and a few other oportunities happened because Ukrainian armor was out beyond the lines and in previously Russian held territory - thus no AA guns, no hidden troops waiting to send a rocket their way.
Even then, it was probably less of a strategic decisions and more of the pilots being ordered into the shit to try to stop armor.

I really don't know what Russia is hoping to accomplish at this point. They had a good run in 2022 all things considered, and have been stopped dead now in 2023. How exactly do they plan to regain the initiative in 2024? For that matter, where will the Russia economy and military industrial complex be come 2025? NATO has pretty much stated they will arm Ukraine for however long it takes, and the rate of Ukraines losses are not fast enough to bring about systematic collapse of their military or state. If anything, the longer this goes on the harder it will be for Russia to cause meaningful damage. The supply of strategic missiles and wat not is not infinite and the ability to replace them at speed is simply not there. Same goes for the tanks and artillery ammunition. Russia's industrial production has fallen dramatically in the past year while NATO has begun ramping up to war time levels of productions. Its not managed to catch up with the rate of expenditure yet, but its getting there and once it does the boot is going to be on the other foot.

Never mind the fact that Russia is hollowing out its officer corps and what remains of its professional army as it relies more and more on the conscript force. Come 2025, the economic force potential of Ukraine backed by the West will vastly outweigh anything Russia can hope to produce with an economy equivalent to the US State of Florida. By then Ukraine will probably have gotten around to modernizing its Air Force too, never mind the Army. The outcome of the war at this point is inevitable the longer it goes on, and the inability of the Ziggers to see this is amazing too me.

I've said it before and it must be repeated. Russia had one shot to win this outright, and that was in the first 4 weeks of the war. The moment they failed to do it they should have cut their losses and taken what they could get. The fact that they did not will probably go down in history as an act of supreme hubris.
I don't think they had 4 weeks to win outright. They barely had 4 days; Russia's chance to end this quick was blown the minute Zelensky chose to not abandon Kiev because that was an option.

That said, I think Putin is playing the long game correctly and banking on Eurocucks cucking under. The question is if he is going to be able keep playing that long game

It's retarded to say the US is running out of anything military related. According to vatniggers and other retards the US is running out of everything but the Russians aren't. I guess the Russians have more T-62's and T-55's than we though. I was posting in this thread the other day and a bunch of retards were marking my posts as MATI and dumb for simply stating facts and obvious truth. There is no way the US is running out of ammo or whatever. This country spends $800 billion a year on military and hasn't fought a long term conventional war since WW2. That's what I told the retards.
The local vatniggers believe MoD copium about one tank factory making 1500 T-72M/T-90 tanks this year. That's going to be a hard number to reach just getting stored T-62 55's back into service let alone building new tanks.

I really need to just clip out Perun talking about the impossibility of either side running out of ammo. Neither the US or Russia will ever run out, what will happen is stocks will hit critical levels and expenditure will be dialed back. Dialing back raw rounds fires is going to be more detrimental to Russia than Ukraine western weapons can actually hit the thing they're aimed at instead of pumping out 100 rounds and hoping one hits the target.

What is happening is the US is being caught in a situation that should be a teaching/learning moment but won't be - the Army is doing long over-due upgrades to ammunition production and isn't yet able to fully reap the benefits of the new factories and processes, but also due to funneling money to fags & violent niggers the stock piles are near the lowest they've been since WWII. The longer this goes on, the more the US arms industry is catching up.

Obamacare and labor unions are fucking cancer and anyone who depends on either of those ain't going to vote for whoever for the betterment of the people. As is Labor unions are permanently lockstep with the democrats as the union leaders benefit hugely from that arrangement.
They don't HAVE to be terrible and there are some decent unions, but in general Unions are just corrupt and shitty as management or the government.
 
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I really don't know what Russia is hoping to accomplish at this point. They had a good run in 2022 all things considered, and have been stopped dead now in 2023. How exactly do they plan to regain the initiative in 2024? For that matter, where will the Russia economy and military industrial complex be come 2025?

So assuming that honest reports about the lack of progress and recent Ukrainian gains are making it back to Putin and the oligarchs instead of self-preserving but false reports of gained ground and destroyed materiel, there's a couple of things I think might be going on.

One, they agree with the vatnik "war of attrition" argument; they have the greater population, so as long as they can kill enough Ukes, it doesn't really matter how much terrain they control or for how long things drag out - the latter might be to their benefit, actually. Eventually, due to domestic pressures and the inability to recruit or draft any more fighting-aged men, Zelensky will be driven to the bargaining table and Russia will be able to keep some clay. (This line of thinking is somewhat contrasted by the NATO equipment Ukraine is getting, usually in higher quality and quantity than the Russian equipment. If, due to better equipment, a Ukrainian soldier is three times as effective as a Russian soldier, it doesn't really matter if Russia has twice as many soldiers.)

Two, if they can't wait out Ukraine, they can wait out NATO. Eventually NATO decides Ukraine isn't worth the cost and demands Zelensky goes to the table. Maybe the US presidential election happens next year and a dove or isolationist gets elected and stops the funding after they get in office, and the other countries can't or don't want to pick up the slack.

Three, everyone knows they're in a quagmire and have no hope of a good outcome from this, but nobody's figured out yet how to spin the special military operation as a success to save face and bring everyone back home, so more meat gets pushed into the grinder instead. Unfortunately things like NATO bringing in more countries may be a part of this as it allows for them to persist in the narrative about this being a fight for survival against the spread of NATO's degeneracy and how they're surrounding Russia for an eventual invasion and so on.

Of course none of these ideas are mutually exclusive.
 
Obamacare and labor unions are fucking cancer and anyone who depends on either of those ain't going to vote for whoever for the betterment of the people. As is Labor unions are permanently lockstep with the democrats as the union leaders benefit hugely from that arrangement.
That's not true at all. Trump has huge amounts of support from working class white Americans in labor unions. Not from the labor unions themselves. But Trump wanted to change that. But the Republicans want to keep going with their anti labor union nonsense and their never ending quest to shit on poor people. That's one of the reasons why they keep losing elections at least till Trump came along. 25-30% of the Democrat voter base went over to Trump in 2016 and 2020. Working class white democrats. That's how Trump won Michigan Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Matter of fact that's what helped him all over the Midwest. There aren't enough people making $100,000 a year to keep the establishment republicans in office indefinitely. Millions of people people depend on Obamacare. I bet many of them voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020.

But ok Boomer.
The local vatniggers believe MoD copium about one tank factory making 1500 T-72M/T-90 tanks this year. That's going to be a hard number to reach just getting stored T-62 55's back into service let alone building new tanks.

I really need to just clip out Perun talking about the impossibility of either side running out of ammo. Neither the US or Russia will ever run out, what will happen is stocks will hit critical levels and expenditure will be dialed back. Dialing back raw rounds fires is going to be more detrimental to Russia than Ukraine western weapons can actually hit the thing they're aimed at instead of pumping out 100 rounds and hoping one hits the target.

What is happening is the US is being caught in a situation that should be a teaching/learning moment but won't be - the Army is doing long over-due upgrades to ammunition production and isn't yet able to fully reap the benefits of the new factories and processes, but also due to fags & violent niggers the stock piles are near the lowest they've been since WWII. The longer this goes on, the more the US arms industry is catching up.
If you read the posts from the vatniggers and the other retards everyone is running out of stuff but Russia. It's just more Russia is unbeatable Russia stronk BS. America has nothing left and Europe is totally out of everything. But any minute Russia is going to send 1 million Russian super soldiers and 1 million T-14's screaming across the border into Ukraine. It's mental illness levels of coping.
 
"Did you get Sweden in to NATO?"
"Yes."
"What did it cost?"
"Nothing, actually less than nothing. Lockheed Martin stock going to the fucking moon!"

I'm not going to bother archiving because its what it says on the tin:
Day after Turkey drops objections to Sweden joining, the $20 billion deal for additional F-16s that's been on hold since the Turkish near-coup in 2016 gets green lit. (For milspergs: 40 new-run F-16Vs and 80 D/E-to-V upgrade kits; Turkey operates about 240 F-16s currently so 1/3 of their fleet)

Jesus, now how are we going to keep the Turk Roaches out of Europe?

If you read the posts from the vatniggers and the other retards everyone is running out of stuff but Russia. It's just more Russia is unbeatable Russia stronk BS. America has nothing left and Europe is totally out of everything. But any minute Russia is going to send 1 million Russian super soldiers and 1 million T-14's screaming across the border into Ukraine. It's mental illness levels of coping.
I mean, they're vatniggers. If they were capable of observation & critical thought, they wouldn't be vatniggers.
 
I really don't know what Russia is hoping to accomplish at this point. They had a good run in 2022 all things considered, and have been stopped dead now in 2023. How exactly do they plan to regain the initiative in 2024? For that matter, where will the Russia economy and military industrial complex be come 2025? NATO has pretty much stated they will arm Ukraine for however long it takes, and the rate of Ukraines losses are not fast enough to bring about systematic collapse of their military or state. If anything, the longer this goes on the harder it will be for Russia to cause meaningful damage. The supply of strategic missiles and wat not is not infinite and the ability to replace them at speed is simply not there. Same goes for the tanks and artillery ammunition. Russia's industrial production has fallen dramatically in the past year while NATO has begun ramping up to war time levels of productions. Its not managed to catch up with the rate of expenditure yet, but its getting there and once it does the boot is going to be on the other foot.

Never mind the fact that Russia is hollowing out its officer corps and what remains of its professional army as it relies more and more on the conscript force. Come 2025, the economic force potential of Ukraine backed by the West will vastly outweigh anything Russia can hope to produce with an economy equivalent to the US State of Florida. By then Ukraine will probably have gotten around to modernizing its Air Force too, never mind the Army. The outcome of the war at this point is inevitable the longer it goes on, and the inability of the Ziggers to see this is amazing too me.

I've said it before and it must be repeated. Russia had one shot to win this outright, and that was in the first 4 weeks of the war. The moment they failed to do it they should have cut their losses and taken what they could get. The fact that they did not will probably go down in history as an act of supreme hubris.
To save face.
If you read the posts from the vatniggers and the other retards everyone is running out of stuff but Russia. It's just more Russia is unbeatable Russia stronk BS. America has nothing left and Europe is totally out of everything. But any minute Russia is going to send 1 million Russian super soldiers and 1 million T-14's screaming across the border into Ukraine. It's mental illness levels of coping.
They're running out of people at the very least, I have someone close going through compulsory service and I'm told they're desperate to get people to sign contracts.
And judging by the equipment we're seeing being supplied to the front, it doesn't look good on that end either.

Funny story, one of their officers who's a total jackass signed a contract for "SMO" (thinking it's going to be easy money by the sound of it), and was sent there eventually. As part of logistics in the rear... Basically, he saw Ukrainian rockets flying, shit his pants and returned (somehow). I think it's like a vacation for a month and he'll have to go back lmao
Dude haven't even seen combat. It's one thing to bully helpless conscripts, it's another to fight in a war.
 
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Obamacare and labor unions are fucking cancer and anyone who depends on either of those ain't going to vote for whoever for the betterment of the people. As is Labor unions are permanently lockstep with the democrats as the union leaders benefit hugely from that arrangement.
That's not true at all. Trump has huge amounts of support from working class white Americans in labor unions. Not from the labor unions themselves. But Trump wanted to change that. But the Republicans want to keep going with their anti labor union nonsense and their never ending quest to shit on poor people. That's one of the reasons why they keep losing elections at least till Trump came along. 25-30% of the Democrat voter base went over to Trump in 2016 and 2020. Working class white democrats. That's how Trump won Michigan Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Matter of fact that's what helped him all over the Midwest. There aren't enough people making $100,000 a year to keep the establishment republicans in office indefinitely. Millions of people people depend on Obamacare. I bet many of them voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020.
Hey rural burger from the Midwest here, with a family of working class family members, you're 100% retarded, yeah totally no one cares about social programs, that's why Desantis's campaign is dead in the water after his comments on Social Security and the retirement age came out with people like Trump pledge to protect those social programs (wheter he will or not is debatable). The working class is at a stage of abuse and whenever they're standing up via unionizing which stuff like teachers and the post office have high levels of, instead of you know... paying them a fucking decent wage, retards like you will cry about "daddy goverment bailing us out". You come off to me as a rich cunt that wants to LARP as a rural working class man with a family similar when you want programs that help the rural people and the working class cut. and then people legit wonder why so many christians in america are turning pseudo socialist at this point. We can 100% agree on support to Ukraine and Foreign policy, but i have to heavily disagree on your comments on the working class and of social programs.
This is a thread about the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Stop derailing it with sperging about American domestic politics. Here's one of many threads we have elsewhere on the site for doing that.
 
a thread about the Russian invasion of Ukraine
Are we allowed to make connections between domestic policies in the US and the war? I am fairly sure that Ukraine's ability to fight is probably 80% dependent on the US support and without US support, there would be no more war outside partisan "freedom fighting" and there would also no longer be a Ukraine.
So I'd say that it is of paramount importance for those that want Ukraine to exist and to have a chance at Russian removal, to support US politicians that do not threaten to abandon it.
More importantly, with election year coming up, there will be a LOT of drama around this very issue in a few months, which will last for a good while, and there will be a lot of animosity between people that want Trump to win, who has implicitly supported the occupation with his rhetoric and promises to "make peace" immediately, when only one side can be bullied into that, i.e. Ukraine, and people that would want a safer leadership in the US that ensures Ukraine is not left to the wolves.
The destiny of Ukraine is bound to US politics, I'm afraid.
 
Are we allowed to make connections between domestic policies in the US and the war? I am fairly sure that Ukraine's ability to fight is probably 80% dependent on the US support and without US support, there would be no more war outside partisan "freedom fighting" and there would also no longer be a Ukraine.
So I'd say that it is of paramount importance for those that want Ukraine to exist and to have a chance at Russian removal, to support US politicians that do not threaten to abandon it.
More importantly, with election year coming up, there will be a LOT of drama around this very issue in a few months, which will last for a good while, and there will be a lot of animosity between people that want Trump to win, who has implicitly supported the occupation with his rhetoric and promises to "make peace" immediately, when only one side can be bullied into that, i.e. Ukraine, and people that would want a safer leadership in the US that ensures Ukraine is not left to the wolves.
The destiny of Ukraine is bound to US politics, I'm afraid.
You can talk about American politics as it relates to the war, that's fine. I'm sure this thread will be filled with every candidate's hot takes on the war and which one is a faggot for their particular opinion. Whining about class politics, unions, and which political party they prefer is 100% off topic.
 
U.S. military industrial complex isn't going to spool up and expand production all that much as it remembers
it been burned, decimated to almost outright obliterated too many times over the existence of the United States. Will need some serious very, very long term contracts and waivers against the EPA, OSHA and other govt regulatory agencies from fucking with them on the expansion(s).
 
On the subject of the inevitable tidal wave.

1689192262665663.png

 
U.S. military industrial complex isn't going to spool up and expand production all that much as it remembers
I love that the range of opinion on here ranges from “the military-industrial—intelligence-deep-state complex controls everything in the world!!! including which president you get”

To

“usa can’t really make bullets any more”

(Imagine the meme with the buff dog and the deflated dog.)

Anyway, hope Ukraine gets some more of those 155mm Bonus rounds, those are cool AF.
 
Looks like not only Ukrainians have conflicts in their command.
Deputy Gurulev published an audio statement by the suspended commander of the 58th Combined Arms Army of the Southern Military District of the Russian Armed Forces, Major General Ivan Popov, to his soldiers.

"Good night, my beloved Gladiators, loved ones, relatives, one family. I had to gather my thoughts, a lot of events happened in the last two days. Now we can say it with certainty.

I've been removed from my post. Here, I am waiting for my future military fate, its changes, some proposal for further service.

I've been honest with you from the very beginning. I have been frank with you. I have shortened distances with all gladiators from a soldier to a marshal in our case. Because the same, the same, all are afraid, the same, all are painful and hard. ...was always honest, as much as possible from the first day of arrival in our army. That's why I'm telling you honestly, there was a difficult situation with the senior commanders, when I had to either keep silent out of cowardice, and say what they wanted to hear, or call things by their names.

I had no right to lie in the name of you, in the name of all our friends who died in combat, so I outlined all the problematic issues that exist today in the army. I called all the things by their names and drew attention to them. On the most important tragedy of modern warfare.

This is the lack of counter-battery combat, reconnaissance and the mass of death of our brothers. from enemy artillery. Also raised a number of other problems. At the highest level frankly, extremely tough.

With this, apparently, the senior chiefs felt the danger of something and promptly for one day light, made up an order of the Minister of Defense, got rid of.

As many commanders of regiments, divisions said today, our army could not be penetrated from the front. We were hit from the rear by our senior chief, treacherously and meanly, decapitating the army at the most difficult and tense moment.

I stay in touch constantly for all soldiers and NCOs, warrant officers of the army for all absolutely 24/7 any problems, domestic, family, rear, combat, any absolutely problems. We continue to work in a group. I am available to you all the time. I am honored to stand in the same formation with you. I am proud, dear and will do everything in my power even more to make it easier for you to fight and to keep as many of our fighting comrades alive as possible. Most importantly, it is in the name of those who will never return from the battlefields. In the name of their memory in the name of the spilled blood of soldiers and officers on Zaporizhzhya

We are obliged with you to defeat the enemy, to repel his offensive, to create conditions for further actions. And thus honor the memory of our fallen comrades always with you always in touch with your Spartacus".
source: pro russian telegram
Confirmed to be real by various other Z accounts, including rybar, though what it actually means...shrug
Both rybar and another source added that it was supposedly also about not rotating soldiers away from the frontline, but that's "anonymous sources". Russian soldiers did complain about being unable to rotate frontline troops due to manpower shortages before though.
 
It was obvious to anyone not a retard that the West was fully capable of money printer go brrrr and start pumping out an assload of shells and missiles in short order

Which is exactly what the US and Europe did. Money printer went brrrr in the most recent Western defense budgets, especially America's, and tube artillery + rocket launcher ammunition production has already increased and will continue to increase accordingly
 
I mean, they're vatniggers. If they were capable of observation & critical thought, they wouldn't be vatniggers.
Good point. lol
They're running out of people at the very least, I have someone close going through compulsory service and I'm told they're desperate to get people to sign contracts.
And judging by the equipment we're seeing being supplied to the front, it doesn't look good on that end either.

Funny story, one of their officers who's a total jackass signed a contract for "SMO" (thinking it's going to be easy money by the sound of it), and was sent there eventually. As part of logistics in the rear... Basically, he saw Ukrainian rockets flying, shit his pants and returned (somehow). I think it's like a vacation for a month and he'll have to go back lmao
Dude haven't even seen combat. It's one thing to bully helpless conscripts, it's another to fight in a war.
I wouldn't say they are running out of people. I think the Russian population is still at 140 million. It's like Perun said in a video last year. Both Russia and Ukraine are not running out of people. The Russians might run out of people that will willingly join the military and fight in Ukraine. But they will just draft more men.

Yeah there will be stupid people who think it will be easy or like a movie. They are in every country. Especially if they are being propagandized by the Russian media. He probably should have listened to what Prigozhin said.
He really is modern day Hitler. Except Hitler had an active underground movement planning to depose him.
But they didn't stop Hitler. He either killed himself or fled to Argentina. I like to think he went to Argentina because it's more fun.
 
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