Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Lasers aren't pipe dream meme weapons like they were in the 70s and 80s. Even the Taliban used used Chinese made hand lasers well enough to force the DoD to respond. The Trijicon ACOG was adopted mid war as a standard issue optic where previously no magnified optics were standard issue. The Taliban would flash the lasers at US troops aiming down their ACOG and would cause irreversible eye damage. The DoD had to start issuing a honeycomb fitting that attached to the front of the ACOG that prevented lasers from being refracted through the lense unless the optic and laser were pointed directly at each other.

We don't have a death star yet but lasers are still excellent at fucking with optic equipment and the human eye.
The US Navy has been deploying with LaWS for nearly a decade now, and that thing was specifically designed to take out small commercial drones and RPGs in flight. It runs like six commercial welding lasers firing simultaneously on a target, so nothing too exotic, and it's only about 30KW, so small enough to mount to a truck with a generator for power.

It can burn right through a UAV's engine. The navy apparently uses it to protect against small boat attacks, like the USS Cole attack, and just shoots through their boat motors at distance.

Even if the range is only a mile (and it's probably double that or more, since they're mounting them on ships), that's plenty far to protect ground troops and vehicles from having grenades dropped on them by cheap-ass drones. Not sure how cost effective they would be compared to some guys with shotguns, but still, the tech already exists.

Raytheon also built some sort of directed EMP gun years ago that is truck-mountable, specifically to take out small UAVs by frying their circuits, and there's a cruise missile version that can fry entire battlefields as it flies overhead. And that's the stuff they publicly admit exists, who knows what we really have for dealing with drones. THEL was twenty years ago now, and Obama officially canceled a bunch of other laser weapon projects that were nearing completion a decade ago, which probably just means they went off-the-books.
 
If this stuff exists, why aren't they being deployed? This stuff sounds a whole lot more useful to the Ukrainians than a dozen or so tanks and other heavy vehicles. I assume it would be easier to build several hundred of those truck mounted EMP guns than a dozen or so tanks. The impact on morale alone would be worth the cost. I can't imagine how scary it must being knowing you could get accurately shelled or drone bombed every second of every day.
 
Whiskey, can't reply. The reason LaWS is a Navy-only thing is that it requires a ship's power plant to produce the massive amount of energy and cooling required to fire the thing once. It's also only deployed on a single ship and is used more for surveillance than as a weapon. It isn't possible to make it portable enough to shoot down $500 drones on the battlefield. Much easier to just jam their sensors instead.

If this stuff exists, why aren't they being deployed? This stuff sounds a whole lot more useful to the Ukrainians than a dozen or so tanks and other heavy vehicles. I assume it would be easier to build several hundred of those truck mounted EMP guns than a dozen or so tanks. The impact on morale alone would be worth the cost. I can't imagine how scary it must being knowing you could get accurately shelled or drone bombed every second of every day.
Because of the energy required. Energy weapons require enough power to light up a small town each time they're fired. That's not going to change until they find a way around the laws of thermodynamics.
 
If this stuff exists, why aren't they being deployed? This stuff sounds a whole lot more useful to the Ukrainians than a dozen or so tanks and other heavy vehicles. I assume it would be easier to build several hundred of those truck mounted EMP guns than a dozen or so tanks. The impact on morale alone would be worth the cost. I can't imagine how scary it must being knowing you could get accurately shelled or drone bombed every second of every day.
Probably the same reason we aren't giving the Ukrainians real Abrams or modern fighter craft: fear that it'll be defeated by the Russians, fear it'll be captured intact by the Russians, fear the Ukrainians will sell it to the Russians, and fear it'll fail in real battlefield conditions. Any of which is a real possibility, and would be embarrassing as all hell.
 
Probably the same reason we aren't giving the Ukrainians real Abrams or modern fighter craft: fear that it'll be defeated by the Russians, fear it'll be captured intact by the Russians, fear the Ukrainians will sell it to the Russians, and fear it'll fail in real battlefield conditions. Any of which is a real possibility, and would be embarrassing as all hell.
It would be more than embarrassing. The people might just wake up and realize they've been scammed after the gov't spends literally trillions of their dollars developing all these movie-weapons that are then defeated by an off-the-shelf retail DJI Mavic Pro.
 
mmmkay
Screenshot 2023-07-25 at 10.27.11 PM.png
 
Whiskey, can't reply. The reason LaWS is a Navy-only thing is that it requires a ship's power plant to produce the massive amount of energy and cooling required to fire the thing once. It's also only deployed on a single ship and is used more for surveillance than as a weapon. It isn't possible to make it portable enough to shoot down $500 drones on the battlefield. Much easier to just jam their sensors instead.


Because of the energy required. Energy weapons require enough power to light up a small town each time they're fired. That's not going to change until they find a way around the laws of thermodynamics.
Well, the LaWS' power comes from its capacitors, which are large enough to need their own vehicle if we made a mobile version for ground battle, but they could be charged from any sort of powerplant. A couple diesel generators on a truck would be fine, you'd just have a very long charge time between shots, which is why it remains a prototype. It can't really take out multiple targets without sustained power and cooling, hence the naval vessel.

If it were a chemical laser instead of fiber welding lasers, they'd be able to skip the power issue, though they'd need to refuel the laser frequently. But even if you could only get a couple dozen shots before needing to refuel and if it cost a million dollars, it would pay for itself the first time it saved a tank from a kamikaze drone.

The US has mounted at least two successfully tested (and much more powerful) anti-missile lasers mounted aboard aircraft back in 2009 or so, both discontinued for their high costs and having ranges of about six miles, not because they couldn't be powered or cooled on a mobile platform. They were chemical lasers, with enough chemical fuel to power the laser for twenty sustained firings. They were also meant for taking out ballistic missiles, so the range was the real deal breaker. But an anti-drone system would need far less range to be useful and could be far less powerful, obviously. The full-scale airplane laser was about 15,000 pounds, so a scaled down version should be small enough to fit a wheeled vehicle, not counting the extra fuel of course. Add in the radar, and you're probably talking three vehicles per laser system, which isn't that terrible really.

My real point though was that all this stuff is very old now (the NAVY was releasing video of LaWS in action in 2014). Whatever laser tech we have today must be significantly better, simply because we've been steadily researching this stuff and drones have been an obvious developing threat long before Syria and Ukraine. I seriously doubt we don't already have something relatively mobile that can take out a civilian-grade drone swarm, but who knows when we'd ever admit it existed. Part of the issue with the aircraft-mounted lasers was people pointing out that regardless of their costs and lack of extreme range, they'd be remarkably useful assassination weapons, especially if nobody knew they existed. Obama shut them down shortly after their successful operation tests.
 
Whatever laser tech we have today must be significantly better, simply because we've been steadily researching this stuff and drones have been an obvious developing threat long before Syria and Ukraine
Lasers have been inhibited less by development in theory and ideas than they have been inhibited by Material Science, which is a notoriously slowly moving field for anything past lab scale applications. We've made huge strides in the field in the lab, and the tiniest of steps in reality as developing the process to produce much of anything useful in quantities has been incredibly slow. This is part of why the cost of producing these experimental laser systems is astronomical, and takes years - You can't just order half the stuff off a supplier in bulk. This material science problem is also why you constantly hear about new revolutionary battery compositions, or metal alloys, or another variant of carbon supermaterial. Getting the specific compositions to mass production tends to be infeasible, and takes decades to figure out when they do nail it down.

I'm sure there's a DARPA lab somewhere with genuinely insane advancements in their prototypes, but there's no practical means to build enough of them to do anything with, and certainly not at any budget that'd ever be approved. Using a six figure missile to take down a drone is still cheaper in all the ways that matter.
 
From the start of the war.
ukrainejew.jpg
Imagine the smell!
Whatever laser tech we have today must be significantly better, simply because we've been steadily researching this stuff
Laser efficiency is a big topic especially in the US, since they want to create that big laser based fusion power plant, where they broke Q=1 "recently". The big hurdle there is the power that goes into the laser and what comes out are vastly different. So I would assume this is a hot research topic, with battlefield applications too. Not this year, but it's coming.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: just a banana
Some Vidya I don't think I've posted:

Commenting on overhead missile strikes from your living room:



T-14 Terminator in action. I fell behind on this thread so idr where this is from but apparently actively engaging somewhere:



Shooting at a boat drone:




Based dog for July:

 
Last edited:
The US has mounted at least two successfully tested (and much more powerful) anti-missile lasers mounted aboard aircraft back in 2009 or so, both discontinued for their high costs and having ranges of about six miles, not because they couldn't be powered or cooled on a mobile platform.
I think that's still a power and cooling issue. I only have a very basic understanding of physics so correct me if I'm wrong, but the thing with energy weapons is that energy is lost rapidly as you go further away from the source. What was it called? Inverse exponential square something decline? I dunno.

Basically, any source can theoretically beam energy to infinity and beyond, but once it gets there, it's so weak it may not even be detectable anymore.

I remember seeing those from documentaries as early as the mid 2000s. The laser requires a full on jumbo jet to house the power requirements and everything else needed, but I didn't know the range was only a disappointing six miles. IIRC, an ICBM covers that in ONE SECOND.

It's only now as an adult that I realized those documentaries from 20 years ago were probably propaganda.
 
Back