Sword question

[exposethebad]

Completely random but I figured it was worth a shot. Does anyone know of any serious sword collectors? I have a very old and rare sword that was passed down to me that, frankly, just sits in the case all day and it is well past time I looked to sell it to a serious buyer. In truth it is the only sword of it's kind as the blade is marked 1754 with the Dutch East Indies company logo and the hilt is marked from the 12th century of Feudal Japan. It's a long story but, suffice to say, the DEI company once had a trading post on an island off the coast of Japan and would give blades or full swords as gifts to the Japanese. Thereafter some of the Japanese lords or highborns would take the blades and then add their own flavor to it by adding an older hilt. For example, the blade is obviously European but the sheath has a Buddha on it.

I am shooting blind here but figured I might as well ask to see if someone knows or has heard of someone as these old swords sell for a lot and I would prefer that to it just sitting in a case all day.

 

[Bassomatic]

My suggestion would be take it to an antique dealer specializing in weapons/military stuff. I only have one sword from old times, it's not worth much due to it's wear. But knowing some of the history will help you in some research. I can't even ball park it sadly.

Any pics of it?

 

[Mark Corrigan]

Matt Easton from Schola Gladiatoria, perhaps?

 

[exposethebad]

My suggestion would be take it to an antique dealer specializing in weapons/military stuff. I only have one sword from old times, it's not worth much due to it's wear. But knowing some of the history will help you in some research. I can't even ball park it sadly.

Any pics of it?

Yeah when I get home from work in a few hours I will post a bunch as it is quite interesting/cool and you guys should see it for yourselves as there really is nothing like it. Last year I contacted the University of Tokyo and the University of Copenhagen plus some museums from those countries. I was able to get my hands on a copy of the shipping manifest from that year from the museum in Copenhagen that showed when the blades were brought over but the best I can do to confirm the older segments (hilt, sheath, etc) was an old Japanese swordsmith in San Francisco who I traveled to see last year as well. He claimed that it should never be "cleaned" as the wear/tear assures it can be properly identified and dated (no idea how this is done). He stated it was the only one he has ever seen as well. When I get home from work I will write out how it was passed to my family if you guys are interested as the sword passed hands to my family line in 1944.

This sword has been a huge mystery for so long despite going to famous sword identifiers, site experts and even museums. Point being, I think you guys will find it interesting as well so I will definitely post a bunch in about five hours.

 

[exposethebad]

Alright here are some pictures. I will upload some others with better quality later if people are interested as I was in/out the door at moment headed to a movie:


Sword & sheath:
http://tinypic.com/r/6qzkhl/9

This one took a long time to figure out. That symbol (picture below following site) is extremely rare and it represents the Dutch East India Co. https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch2en/conc2en/map_VOC_Trade_Network.html

http://tinypic.com/r/33vjdw3/9

This is a copper Buddha on the sheath:
http://tinypic.com/r/2rwkqqf/9

The swordsmith was able to identify the time period based on the artistry on the hilt, here it is:
http://tinypic.com/r/2q151k4/9

This picture isn't very clear as I was in a hurry and used my phone but that has the date of issue on the blade itself. I will take a better one later as it's very clear but this picture doesn't do it justice:
http://tinypic.com/r/20702lc/9

To show the change between the older hilt and blade from the mid 18th century. I have no idea who did it but I assume they were a solid blacksmith from their time to be able to add a foreign hilt to a 500-600 year older hilt.
http://tinypic.com/r/2z7ju2w/9

 

[The Dude]

Looks like a Japanese Gunto, a sword given to Imperial Officers of the Japanese military during WWII. Some were genuine Katana that were ancestral blades that were refitted with modern military hardware, but most were stamped steel and mostly ceremonial. Either way, you could get a nice chunk of change for it.

 

[exposethebad]

Looks like a Japanese Gunto, a sword given to Imperial Officers of the Japanese military during WWII. Some were genuine Katana that were ancestral blades that were refitted with modern military hardware, but most were stamped steel and mostly ceremonial. Either way, you could get a nice chunk of change for it.

That is what I originally believed when I first started looking into the sword years ago. However, it didn't explain how a blade marked 1756 and issued by Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie (VOC) ended up in Japan attached to a hilt much older. The best history I have pieced together is that the blade obviously originated in Copenhagen and was shipped to Japan during the brief time period that Japan allowed Europeans to trade with them. We know that the blade is from 1756 because it is dated right on it with the VOC seal so that takes care of that. What we don't know is why a hilt hypothesized to be from the 12th-13th century was attached to it. However, my Grandfather was given the sword by, like you suggested, a Japanese officer during WW2 who told him the sword had "been in his family for hundreds of years". It was a gift for saving him from being stuck in some sinkhole. Anyhow, sometime after 1756 the two halves had to have come together.

Looking at historical records the VOC gifted blades to high ranking or powerful Japanese families as they were attempting to bridge issues and push for larger trade allowances. So, from that thought process I can only conclude that the family in question was likely someone connected to the leadership at that time period as it just wouldn't make sense for the VOC to give them away to random people. The swordsmith I brought it to stated that the design on the hilt is similar to two different patterns of Shoguns from several hundred years earlier but he stated without the original blade it was attached to it would be impossible to determine who exactly. So, best guess is that it was a gift to someone connected who descended from someone who once served the Shogun several hundred years earlier. From there, WW2 broke out and, like many other Japanese officers, he carried a sword for both battle and to honor his family. That is total speculation on my part but one thing we know for 100% fact and that is this sword has likely seen three different continents and has seen a large amount of action. If you/others have any other theories I would love to hear them as this sword has been enjoyable to try to figure out its history for many years now that's for sure. I will post some clearer images tomorrow for you guys.

 

[The Dude]

That's totally badass! Personally, were I you, I'd keep it. I've got a family sword from an ancestor who served with the Union Army during the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression to my Southern friends),

 

[exball]

That is what I originally believed when I first started looking into the sword years ago. However, it didn't explain how a blade marked 1756 and issued by Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie (VOC) ended up in Japan attached to a hilt much older. The best history I have pieced together is that the blade obviously originated in Copenhagen and was shipped to Japan during the brief time period that Japan allowed Europeans to trade with them. We know that the blade is from 1756 because it is dated right on it with the VOC seal so that takes care of that. What we don't know is why a hilt hypothesized to be from the 12th-13th century was attached to it. However, my Grandfather was given the sword by, like you suggested, a Japanese officer during WW2 who told him the sword had "been in his family for hundreds of years". It was a gift for saving him from being stuck in some sinkhole. Anyhow, sometime after 1756 the two halves had to have come together.

Looking at historical records the VOC gifted blades to high ranking or powerful Japanese families as they were attempting to bridge issues and push for larger trade allowances. So, from that thought process I can only conclude that the family in question was likely someone connected to the leadership at that time period as it just wouldn't make sense for the VOC to give them away to random people. The swordsmith I brought it to stated that the design on the hilt is similar to two different patterns of Shoguns from several hundred years earlier but he stated without the original blade it was attached to it would be impossible to determine who exactly. So, best guess is that it was a gift to someone connected who descended from someone who once served the Shogun several hundred years earlier. From there, WW2 broke out and, like many other Japanese officers, he carried a sword for both battle and to honor his family. That is total speculation on my part but one thing we know for 100% fact and that is this sword has likely seen three different continents and has seen a large amount of action. If you/others have any other theories I would love to hear them as this sword has been enjoyable to try to figure out its history for many years now that's for sure. I will post some clearer images tomorrow for you guys.

Japan has really, really shit iron so they bought a lot of sabers from Europe. It's possible it was reforged into a Katana.

 

[Mark Corrigan]

However, my Grandfather was given the sword by, like you suggested, a Japanese officer during WW2 who told him the sword had "been in his family for hundreds of years". It was a gift for saving him from being stuck in some sinkhole.

Damn.
As @The Dude said, I'd keep it if I were you.

 

[The Dude]

Japan has really, really shit iron so they bought a lot of sabers from Europe. It's possible it was reforged into a Katana.

This. Katanaspergs like to go on about "muh folded steel" but before the Industrial Revolution ALL steel was folded. That's how you got steel from iron. The folding process added carbon to the iron and made steel. And the iron native to Japan is of a very low quality. And Katana aren't the amazing wonder weapons many people believe them to be. They are fine swords, depending on what era they were made in and who the blade smith was that forged it, but they require a lot of training, skill and technique to wield properly. They aren't swung like a broadsword so much as they are sliced. And if the angle of your cut is off then you can fuck up the blade quite easily, be it scratching the blade, chipping the edge, or bending or even breaking the blade completely. Even swordsmen who have trained for years have been known to ruin a Katana during cutting demonstrations while slicing tatami mats. Modern Katana with blades made of high carbon spring steel, like 1095 carbon steel, are much more durable and can be used for recreational cutting without worry of harming the blade. Arguably modern Katana are superior to antique blades due to superior blade steels available now. They aren't as valuable as an antique because they are new, but if you ever want something that you can actually use without fear of ruining an antique then they are your best option, and you can get a very fine modern Katana for a comparatively reasonable price. There are even website who offer custom services where you can pick what steel the blade is made of, the color of the ray skin for the hilt, the style of guard and other metal fittings, the style of scabbard, and the color and material of the wrap for the hilt. I'm planning on ordering one of these for my blade collection because while I don't think Katana are the best sword made, I do appreciate their beauty and would love a personalized Katana for my collection. When the zombie apocalypse happens, however, I'll take a nice, beefy, modern two-handed broadsword made of a tough, wear resistant crucible steel.

 

[Some JERK]

my Grandfather was given the sword by, like you suggested, a Japanese officer during WW2 who told him the sword had "been in his family for hundreds of years". It was a gift for saving him from being stuck in some sinkhole.

Isn't that the plot to The Wolverine?

Anyway, yeah, keep that shit. You might need $ today, but in time you'll kick yourself for selling it. Think of it this way; That Japanese guy's family kept that sword in trusted hands for (supposedly) hundreds of years, only giving it to someone outside of the family in gratitude for no less than a life-saving act. Your grandfather then proceeded to keep it in his family. You really want to just hand it over to the first nobody who happens to fork over the right amount of dollars?

 

[exposethebad]

Isn't that the plot to The Wolverine?

Anyway, yeah, keep that shit. You might need $ today, but in time you'll kick yourself for selling it. Think of it this way; That Japanese guy's family kept that sword in trusted hands for (supposedly) hundreds of years, only giving it to someone outside of the family in gratitude for no less than a life-saving act. Your grandfather then proceeded to keep it in his family. You really want to just hand it over to the first nobody who happens to fork over the right amount of dollars?

Hah! I think Wolverine saves him from a nuke but yeah I guess it is similar. I definitely wouldn't sell it for anything outside of a huge amount as I really don't need any money. I think the best way I could describe it is I am more curious than anything. I would never sell it for anything other than something huge but if some random came out of nowhere and offered something huge it would be tough not to say yes. In truth I doubt I ever sell it as I am attached to it but every so often I look into trying to find out more information about this and another item (ring I acquired while in Bosnia - Roman).

I've got a family sword from an ancestor who served with the Union Army during the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression to my Southern friends),

What does it look like?

 

[Vitriol]

so a DEI mid 18th cen blade re housed on a gunto gov hilt with what looks like mild rust damage (pitting) and severe discolouration of the blade. fittings in copper rather than brass also badly discoloured. the style of hilt came back into the jap military in the early 1900's after the russin war and it was almost certainly rehoused in the 1920-30s

Euro blades are quite common on eastern swords of the period as western steel was by then better and cheaper than local stock. You are looking at a price of between $780-900 i am afraid i cannot be more precise without actually handling the blade.

i used to deal in antique swords.

 

[John Titor]

I saw a Japanese painting of a soldier carrying a weapon that looks more like a saber. I can't find it but it looks like it was made in 1800s. Don't have much to offer other than guessing that they made hybrid swords.

 

[Bassomatic]

God that's a wonderful sword, thanks for posting. The history of it just adds so much.