Debate Android Raptor about abortion again

[Shidoen]

okay guys i can solve this once and for all with a question:

if there's a fire and you had to choose between saving several clumps of cells, or an actual living human being, which would you save?

i am very smart, i have solved everything

Obviously I’m saving the baby in the fire and leaving that bureaucrat to fend for himself.

 

[Lurker]

Obviously I’m saving the baby in the fire and leaving that bureaucrat to fend for himself.

what if he was just the janny

 

[Shidoen]

what if he was just the janny

He got a bucket of water doesn’t he? If it’s an electrical fire I guess he can hitch a ride on my back. If he starts stabbing me in the back however he can burn.

 

[Lurker]

He got a bucket of water doesn’t he? If it’s an electrical fire I guess he can hitch a ride on my back.

i don't think jannies just spawn in with buckets of water, dude, it doesn't work that way.

 

[Shidoen]

i don't think jannies just spawn in with buckets of water, dude, it doesn't work that way.

I am altering your hypothetical, pray I do not alter it any further.

 

[gang weeder]

I don't think that's true at all. If an infant is born completely braindead and permanently vegetative, do you think that life has a fundamental value that is morally indistinguishable from an infant who will grow up to perceive the living human experience? You might, but many people would disagree, and I think the crux of that disagreement is whether we believe in the existence of the soul.

That person certainly has fundamental value. I suppose you could argue over whether it's the same value as a "normal" person. But if, for instance, a pedophile were to use that infant to pleasure himself, you would certainly agree that is disgusting and wrong (and you can sit here and try to claim otherwise for the sake of winning the Internet sperg argument, but I won't believe you for a second); even though if we stipulate that the braindead infant somehow isn't actually a person due to being braindead, this act would then be equivalent to using an inanimate sex toy.

The term "soul" is just shorthand for the idea that human life has inherent value. Again, atheists obviously share this value, even though like you are doing, they sometimes try to claim they don't. But revealed preferences (i.e. actual behavior vs lying for the sake of politics) always betray this claim.

If we're going to go into extreme hypothetical, I do believe nothing is wrong with instantly ceasing somebody's life in a way that adds no pain, grief, suffering or inconvenience to anybody else left in the world. Everybody dies, and I don't believe that the dead know or care that they're dead. Unless they have a soul that is being cheated out of further human experience that God intended for it, I'm failing to understand what you think the damage is.

It's not an extreme hypothetical when it's the obvious direct implication of your stated belief. Calling it "extreme" implies that you don't actually believe what you say do, because if you did, then there's nothing "extreme" about it. I don't believe your answer because we both know that if you were put into this situation yourself, you wouldn't pull the trigger. Although we are seeing some consequences from this sort of mindset where you try to pretend that life is meaningless, namely the expansion of euthanasia and the rising possibility that the government will encourage the old and the poor to simply dispose of themselves. If you really want an extreme hypothetical, here you go:

An alien race kidnaps you and puts you into a chamber with two buttons. The aliens have a giant death laser pointed at the Earth from an extreme distance--no one on Earth has any idea that they have it, or that the aliens even exist. The aliens tell you that you have one minute to press one of the two buttons, after which they will execute you in a painless fashion. If you don't press one of them, they will torture you relentlessly in unimaginable ways. One button will fire the death laser, instantly destroying the Earth and all of humanity with zero awareness or pain for any of them--just boom, gone. The other button disables the death laser. The aliens don't care which one you press, won't interfere with Earth further one way or the other, and are doing this for the lulz.


Which button do you push?

My basis to condemn Aztec sacrifice is obviously that it caused a lot of pain and suffering, and even more obviously, that I don't believe that the sun will stop coming up if we don't cut people's heads off. If I believed that, I'd probably be okay with it because the sun coming up is pretty important to me. If I believed in a soul and in God having a plan for all of them, I probably wouldn't be okay with abortion.

We could theorize a situation in which the sacrifice is being done painlessly, which actually isn't all that different from some modern practices, such as people who decide not to have children in order to somehow save the climate. But what I'd rather ask here is why pain and suffering matter to you if human life itself doesn't matter. Why do you care if a human suffers, if you don't even care whether they live or not? Just let them be tortured for someone else's amusement. There is no God looking down and judging you, no true morality that could possibly be violated, after all; everything is just pointless particles that exist for no particular reason, and none of it matters.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

That person is sentient and has a functioning brain and a personality.

So it's not actually about how gross someone looks, let's put the scare pictures away then. You've also conceded cell count is irrelevant.

With alobar holoprosencephaly you're usually stillborn, rarely live more than a couple hours, and are (one hopes) never conscious, since the brain hasn't even split into two hemispheres.

Exactly why the fuck should anyone be forced to give birth to a horrible monster who if it experiences anything at all, is just excruciating pain before an early death?

Maybe some exceptions can be made, but arguing outliers to justify the majority has always been retarded.

 

[decline]

Are you saying he lacks the power to stop them?

No, I am saying the devil is involved, either because the woman is in league with him directly through her behavior, most likely hedonism (alcohol, drugs) or because the devil stalks the house, for example toxins like glyphosate and other *cides, vaccines, drugs sold as medicine.

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

Her logic originally was "if it makes her happy" then she'll basically celebrate her friend's pregnancy. Apparently to her the determining factor isn't the value of the baby, just if what the friend is celebrating makes her happy. So, I just applied it to something else to see if she remained consistent or not.

Like an idiot she tried to remain consistent even under ridiculous hypotheticals because she's too stupid to figure out a way to both remain consistent and not celebrate worms.

Do we need a Kiwi Farms Worm-Hate Thread now?

Jesus Christ. I'm not interested in this abortion debate, but I can say yes, if some slow-in-da-mind came up to me beaming over her worms, I would be very happy for her. Or some not-slow person who is just really into a niche nerd interest in worms as a hobby and excitedly tells me about the latest cool thing on the worm farm, yes, I'll be happy for her because I like to see my friends (or anyone, actually) happy and enjoying their interests. What kind of fucking insulated malcontent goes around judging and begrudging someone their small joys?

In sum: stupid example.

No, I am saying the devil is involved, either because the woman is in league with him directly through her behavior, most likely hedonism (alcohol, drugs) or because the devil stalks the house, for example toxins like glyphosate and other *cides, vaccines, drugs sold as medicine.

Holy Jesus Christ. And people are nerd-ganging all over poor Felix in the other thread when there is this.

 

[decline]

Holy Jesus Christ. And people are nerd-ganging all over poor Felix in the other thread when there is this.

If there is one thing women really really hate is calling out their murderous behavior. Hence this thread.

 

[Dyn]

That person certainly has fundamental value. I suppose you could argue over whether it's the same value as a "normal" person

You don't really have to suppose that we could argue whether a lump of human-shaped meat that will never, ever have brain function doesn't have the same fundamental value as a living, breathing person. We assume that every time we unplug one. It's fine for you to disagree with this, but your assertion was that everybody sees fundamental, unconditional value in human life, and this is demonstrably untrue. The abortion debate wouldn't even exist otherwise.

But if, for instance, a pedophile were to use that infant to pleasure himself, you would certainly agree that is disgusting and wrong

I do think that's disgusting and wrong, because pedophilia is morally revolting. I don't think it's doing the braindead infant any harm, though. It's just fucking gross, and I don't like it, and I believe that normalisation or enabling of pedophilic sexual urges is going to lead to the abuse and victimisation of other, living children.

The term "soul" is just shorthand for the idea that human life has inherent value

It absolutely is not that. The soul is the immaterial essence of a human being, one that can retain our aspect beyond our material form and continue existing with some level of perceptual identity in an afterlife.

An alien race kidnaps you and puts you into a chamber with two buttons. The aliens have a giant death laser pointed at the Earth from an extreme distance--no one on Earth has any idea that they have it, or that the aliens even exist. The aliens tell you that you have one minute to press one of the two buttons, after which they will execute you in a painless fashion. If you don't press one of them, they will torture you relentlessly in unimaginable ways. One button will fire the death laser, instantly destroying the Earth and all of humanity with zero awareness or pain for any of them--just boom, gone. The other button disables the death laser. The aliens don't care which one you press, won't interfere with Earth further one way or the other, and are doing this for the lulz. Which button do you push?

I'd press the one that doesn't destroy earth, because I have a pretty strong sentimental attachment to the place. I understand your point is that when I'm gone, all of that stops mattering and by my own logic it should make no difference to me whether I destroyed humanity or not on the way out, and I do maintain this view, but all the same I'm still personally invested in the life I've got going on and am going to lean towards trying to protect the things that I value and enjoy for as long as I can, even if I know my efforts are ultimately futile.

But what I'd rather ask here is why pain and suffering matter to you if human life itself doesn't matter. Why do you care if a human suffers, if you don't even care whether they live or not?

Because pain hurts, and I have empathy. I'm okay with not existing, because it's how I spent most of the last 13 billion years and I don't recall it being a particularly bad time for me. I can't empathise with the dead, but I really wouldn't like it very much if somebody shot my mother, or raped my wife, or nailed my testicle to a wall, and I would empathise with anybody else that happened to.

I think the central point you're trying to make is that if I don't agree with you that human life has fundamental value, I must not be assigning any value to anything whatsoever. If so, I think this is a pretty self-centered take that will make it difficult for you to understand disagreements. If not, you might need to explain your point better, because I'm not getting it.

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

If there is one thing women really really hate is calling out their murderous behavior. Hence this thread.

Where's that meme - you know, the one with the dot down here labeled "you," and the arrow overhead labeled "the point"? - yeah, that one. Imagine it here.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

if some slow-in-da-mind came up to me beaming over her worms, I would be very happy for her.

I certainly believe you'd be very happy for her, and I don't think you're lying one bit when you imply you'd be just as happy for worm nut as you would be for her to be starting a happy family.

Well, enough sarcasm, I honestly hope you're lying or you're emotionally dysfunctional. Next you'll be telling me you'd feel just as bad for her if her kids died as you would be if her goldfish floated to the top of its bowl

 

[gang weeder]

I think the central point you're trying to make is that if I don't agree with you that human life has fundamental value, I must not be assigning any value to anything whatsoever. If so, I think this is a pretty self-centered take that will make it difficult for you to understand disagreements. If not, you might need to explain your point better, because I'm not getting it.

The point is to demonstrate that your viewpoint boils down to "because I feel like it." Why is pain and suffering bad? Because you don't like them. Why is pedophilia wrong? Because it grosses you out. Etc. You have no consistency or reasoning behind the things you are saying, just raw emotions. If we take you at face value, you're completely uninterested in trying to understand right from wrong, and unable or unwilling to make any serious attempt at understanding why you believe the things that you believe. This is supposed to be a debate thread, but you're sitting here doing the moral relativism, truth doesn't exist, nothing matters, etc., routine. If that's the case, debate is also fake and pointless, and viewpoints such as abortion is based because killing babies is funny, abortion should be banned because women are bad, etc., are all equally as valid as your own.

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

I certainly believe you'd be very happy for her, and I don't think you're lying one bit when you imply you'd be just as happy for worm nut as you would be for her to be starting a happy family.

Well, enough sarcasm, I honestly hope you're lying or you're emotionally dysfunctional. Next you'll be telling me you'd feel just as bad for her if her kids died as you would be if her goldfish floated to the top of its bowl

Dumbass, where did I say "just as happy"? Find it. I'll wait.

As I said, my comment was exactly and only about "yes, I am genuinely happy for other people's joys*." I do not know what kind of tragic upbringing would lead to being unable to do that or understand it. Perhaps you could share.

Also note, since the anticipatory foam from your mouth evidently obscured your eyes, I said literally nothing about pregnancy (which I have personally enjoyed more than once, btw; you?).


* and that includes people here who behave like assholes around the way (including toward my persona specifically) but who have also fessed up a struggle in the "how are you feeling" thread and then post some good news. Yes, I am genuinely happy for them. Because I am not a disconnected, paranoid, zero-sum, emotionally stunted weirdo who can't comprehend empathy and joy beyond the end of my own nose.

 

[Dyn]

The point is to demonstrate that your viewpoint boils down to "because I feel like it." Why is pain and suffering bad? Because you don't like them. Why is pedophilia wrong? Because it grosses you out. Etc. You have no consistency or reasoning behind the things you are saying, just raw emotions. If we take you at face value, you're completely uninterested in trying to understand right from wrong, and unable or unwilling to make any serious attempt at understanding why you believe the things that you believe. This is supposed to be a debate thread, but you're sitting here doing the moral relativism, truth doesn't exist, nothing matters, etc., routine. If that's the case, debate is also fake and pointless, and viewpoints such as abortion is based because killing babies is funny, abortion should be banned because women are bad, etc., are all equally as valid as your own.

Alright, why is pain and suffering bad? Why is pedophilia wrong? Why is death bad? Why is abortion wrong? If you have a firmer moral basis to answer these questions than I do, tell me what it is and where it comes from.

I think I've made a pretty good faith effort to articulate my moral standpoint on the topic, and it's simply that without the existence of a soul, the only moral value in human life stems from the human perception of it. I think that this is a consistent and coherent viewpoint, that most pro-lifers would be able to agree with without ceding anything, and at no point does it suggest that morality doesn't exist and everything is the same.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Dumbass, where did I say "just as happy"? Find it. I'll wait.

You said you'd be "very happy". I guess you can be childish and pedantic and say you'd be "super duper extra happy" in the other case, but the fact remains the two shouldn't even be close.

As I said, my comment was exactly and only about "yes, I am genuinely happy for other people's joys*." I do not know what kind of tragic upbringing would lead to being unable to do that or understand it. Perhaps you could share.

I'll share my tragic backstory which rendered me unable to be "very happy" about the nonsense of the mentally ill with you another time.

Also note, since the anticipatory foam from your mouth evidently obscured your eyes, I said literally nothing about pregnancy (which I have personally enjoyed more than once, btw; you?).

It is sort of the core subject of the thread and part and parcel of the worm comparison, if you have not noticed, so I made a common sense inference lmao

* and that includes people here who behave like assholes around the way (including toward my persona specifically) but who have also fessed up a struggle in the "how are you feeling" thread and then post some good news. Yes, I am genuinely happy for them. Because I am not a disconnected, paranoid, zero-sum, emotionally stunted weirdo who can't comprehend empathy and joy beyond the end of my own nose.

I can think of few things which put on display being emotionally stunted more than even putting a nutcase's worm fetish in the same ballpark as the budding of a new family, but perhaps my mouth foam is yet again blinding me, so please correct me.

 

[AgendaPoster]

WTF is this negration contest between like 3 users
@Android raptor get yo ass in here it's time to have fun and mock some MAGApedeservatives. We can't allow @Dyn, @Lurker and @SSj_Ness monopolize these important discussions.
Get some allies from the womxn protected parts of the forums and let's get the ball rolling for old time's sake or something

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

the only moral value in human life stems from the human perception

Which is technically something which itself cannot be proven beyond one's own perception. If your entire basis rests upon that then there's really no solid reason not to just do whatever you want, nothing matters anyway aside from the perception of others which may not even exist.

 

[Android raptor]

WTF is this negration contest between like 3 users
@Android raptor get yo ass in here it's time to have fun and mock some MAGApedeservatives. We can't allow @Dyn, @Lurker and @SSj_Ness monopolize these important discussions.
Get some allies from the womxn protected parts of the forums and let's get the ball rolling for old time's sake or something

Man I'm about to go swimming and then I gotta go to Walmart