Anyone else like SOME aspects of socialism/economic leftism?

RybenZ999

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Before you jump on me and call me a commie and stuff, I wanna say that obviously outright socialism doesn't work, but I like certain aspects of it, escpecially in this suffocating corporate hellscape we have right now. I think some facets of it could be used to create a fairer system of capitalism where there are checks and balances on big corporations to ensure that competition is allowed to thrive and it won't devolve into a a couple of soulless corporations running literally everything, a strong welfare state with good social safety nets, strong workers' rights, state funded housing and education, universal healthcare etc. Whenever I bring this up though, either retarded hyper-rightoids think I'm talking about communism even though the stuff I'm talking about would actually help them, or it's some weird genderqueer twitter "socialist" with pronouns in her bio who's agreeing with me.

Obviously I know jackshit about economics and if you asked to me to elaborate and present detailed arguments for my points, I'll be a deer caught in headlights so feel free to educate and hit me with "dumb" reactions in this thread.
 
checks and balances to ensure that competition is allowed to thrive and it won't devolve into a a couple of soulless corporations running literally everything
oligopolies start appearing when nobody can charge lower prices or sell better things than existing businesses, which only happens if startups are forced to jump through expensive, time-wasting hoops
strong workers' rights
fixing wages creates unemployment and poorer conditions by cutting off jobs that fall short of the requirement and sacrificing shit like AC, and unions allow people to ignore work (striking) while expecting a wage
state funded housing and education
something that the state is subsidizing or running is more likely to be shit than consumer-funded alternatives because it has income independent of how likely the customers are going to buy its stuff again, so it has no real incentive to offer anything good
state-funded education and media can pump out horseshit because they are being funded regardless of how many children are enrolled or how many viewers are sticking around to watch ads
 
Do you mean something like Northern Europe?
That and some more, like a system where corporations and the government could keep checks and balances on each other and prevent the other from getting too powerful and authoritarian
 
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oligopolies start appearing when nobody can charge lower prices or sell better things than existing businesses, which only happens if startups are forced to jump through expensive, time-wasting hoops

fixing wages creates unemployment and poorer conditions by cutting off jobs that fall short of the requirement and sacrificing shit like AC, and unions allow people to ignore work (striking) while expecting a wage

something that the state is subsidizing or running is more likely to be shit than consumer-funded alternatives because it has income independent of how likely the customers are going to buy its stuff again, so it has no real incentive to offer anything good
state-funded education and media can pump out horseshit because they are being funded regardless of how many children are enrolled or how many viewers are sticking around to watch ads
Pretty sure we already kind of have semi-oligopolies in our current system. I think we should have a (admittedly kind of ideal) system where a new business has the opportunity to thrive without being crushed by the corporate monolith. I agree with the part about unions which is why I'm not explicitly pro-union, but I think they're still important as they kind of prevent companies from just walking all over its employees. I guess there needs to be a more workable and efficient alternative to unions. As for the point about subsidizing, maybe implement a system to ensure quality checks on the government subsidized housing and education. Like I said before, all of this is kind of an ideal scenario and probably won't work out the way I expect it to (I know less about economics than a pebble), but I just wanted to talk about workable alternatives to the soulless corporatism we have right now.
 
Pretty sure we kind already have oligopolies in our current system.
which is why socialists hate modern "capitalism" but miss the mark by blaming tradespeople rather than the policies targeting them
I agree with the part about unions which is why I'm not explicitly pro-union, but I think they're still important as they kind of prevent companies from just walking all over its employees. I guess there needs to be a more workable and efficient alternative to unions.
employees can choose to leave and work at workplaces that offer higher wages or better conditions, forcing employers to compete to treat their workforce the best
without the privileges they currently have, unions would only exist as job clearinghouses and certifiers maybe
As for the point about subsidizing, maybe implement a system to ensure quality checks on the government subsidized housing and education.
theyd have no incentive to be carry out these checks correctly though
 
I like Socialism and I think that the best way forwards for society is going to be a Socialist way. If we could really relate to ourselves and our neighbors as part of an international brotherhood of man, instead of a series of stupid dichtomoies (White vs. Black, male vs female, Duke fans vs Carolina fans, Russians vs. Ukrainians, etc.) we could go a long way towards making this gay world a more efficient, loving, and prosperous society.

Think about it: individual countries wouldn't need to hang on to strategic food bearing land; each country could focus on what it's been gifted with. Brazilians wouldn't have to burn down the rain forest to graze cattle, because there would be enough beef coming out of natual pastures (e.g. America, Argentina) for everyone. We wouldn't have to fear those of other races because there would no longer be a material difference, except perhaps a small one determined by genetics. We would understand that captialist politics is just a distraction game to keep the workers fighting each other instead of aiming up.

Really consider it: the countries on our planet which are blessed with rain forests could keep them, we could generate enough solar power in the Arizona desert to run the lower 48, all the resources capitalists manipulate politicians into squandering on "defense" could be used to put bread on the tables of those who have nothing. Automation and computerization could make work largely obsolete, and we could be artists or gamers or Neets or whatever you want.
oligopolies start appearing when nobody can charge lower prices or sell better things than existing businesses, which only happens if startups are forced to jump through expensive, time-wasting hoops

fixing wages creates unemployment and poorer conditions by cutting off jobs that fall short of the requirement and sacrificing shit like AC, and unions allow people to ignore work (striking) while expecting a wage

something that the state is subsidizing or running is more likely to be shit than consumer-funded alternatives because it has income independent of how likely the customers are going to buy its stuff again, so it has no real incentive to offer anything good
state-funded education and media can pump out horseshit because they are being funded regardless of how many children are enrolled or how many viewers are sticking around to watch ads
Counterpoint: regulation of things like the food supply, water supply, drugs keep these products safe and consistent. Before the Food and Drug Act, factory owners directed their workers to do ghastly shit like process aborted baby cows into lunchmeat, feed their dairy cows leftover mash from the distillation process, and then add chalk power to keep the milk the appropriate color and opacity. Industrialists fed pigs trash, and the pigs would get parasites, which were passed on to the people who bought the meat and ate it.

Counterpoint: when you don't have labor laws then industrialists will defintitely turn off the A/C (that shit costs money, we don't pay you to be cooled off) lock the fire exits to keep workers from sneaking out for a break, fire workers if they are injured on the job, withhold wages, employ children, etc. What keeps this from happening in the US, today? Regulation!

Counterpoint: The US Post Office is the most-used shipping company in the United States, because it offers its services for a lower price than competing private carriers. Public medical care programs like Mass Health and Medicaid save way more money than private insurance companies on the same procedures and pills because these public healthcare systems are orders of magnitude larger than private insurance programs. So I disagree strongly with everything you've said so far.

Also: the only state-funded media companies I know of is NPR and PBS, and state and national funding account for a tiny fraction of its overall budget.
 
No, for socialism demands monoculture and identity in order to succeed. It's why the smallest scale example of it, the nuclear family, works but crumbles in larger scales.
Northern Euros have high-trust monocultures and identities, so their brand of leftism can work.
It will never work in muttmerica or bongistan and Allah's garbage bin; Germany who are hellbent on multiculturalism and erosion of all unity/identity.
 
Socialism is right about the elites fucking everyone and everything (often literally) to keep their position, but it is wrong about virtually everything else, and especially the way to achieve it.

The idea of value being derived from effort is retarded. The idea that the masses can decide best what to do with their money is insane since their inaction is what allows the elites to do what they do anyways.

A lot of modern social plans are also a pyramid scheme (that, again, only benefits those on the top). It's the horrible emulation of the small scale community having a fund for anyone experiencing issue, only stretched to a government that use it to feed every parasite that the small communities would have long kicked out.
 
Many prominent rightists took from socialist thought, and many socialists from right wing thought. Most of the early theorists of Italian fascism were disillusioned socialists.
Yeah I heard that UK's Labor party was originally started by some racist tradesman who was upset with the system of the time. Obviously the labor party has gone very far from its roots.
 
I think that the free market is kinda gay in general cause it forces enterprises to prioritize profit over quality of products and services, cause if you're not driven by profit, your competitors will be and they will use said profits to expand and take over your part of the market.
 
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The idea of value being derived from effort is retarded.
I mean, doesn't the current capitalist system pretty much push the same thing? It's like "We're gonna convince you that you gain more value the more effort you put into your dead end job while the elites just keep getting richer and richer"
 
I mean, doesn't the current capitalist system pretty much push the same thing? It's like "We're gonna convince you that you gain more value the more effort you put into your dead end job while the elites just keep getting richer and richer"
Effort is not totally divorced from value, but me working 100 hours on painting an image, won't make it more valuable than a painting a master artist worked on 10 hours.
 
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I think at the very least, governments should have the right to force the private sector to act in the best interests of the nation. Likewise, governments should have the right to make sure private entities are not engaging in practices that are damaging to the economy. HR culture and the ever ballooning executive class is a good example of something the government should have the right to bring a halt to.
 
it says in the wikipedia article that "The law was partly a response to the publication of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, an exposé of the Chicago meat packing industry, as well as to other Progressive Era muckraking publications of the day." The Jungle is a piece of fiction and source [3] doesn't elaborate what these publications were, so you haven't backed this up with anything i can read
a couple of dairies mistreating their customers doesn't account for any dairy who wanted to stay afloat, and quality standards didn't really exist in the mid nineteenth century
the food and drug act was created fifty years after this scandal as well so i'll bet standards had risen regardless
when you don't have labor laws then industrialists will defintitely turn off the A/C (that shit costs money, we don't pay you to be cooled off) lock the fire exits to keep workers from sneaking out for a break, fire workers if they are injured on the job, withhold wages, employ children, etc. What keeps this from happening in the US, today? Regulation!
that's dumb
employers need employees and employees want AC, fire standards, good working practices and the best wages
if an employer worked against what employees wanted, they'd work with someone more favorable
Counterpoint: The US Post Office is the most-used shipping company in the United States, because it offers its services for a lower price than competing private carriers.
it is illegal for a mail company to charge less than them
Public medical care programs like Mass Health and Medicaid save way more money than private insurance companies on the same procedures and pills because these public healthcare systems are orders of magnitude larger than private insurance programs.
everyone is forced to pay for state healthcare so of course it's more expensive to have a private program on top of that
I think that the free market is kinda gay in general cause it forces enterprises to prioritize profit over quality of products and services
sales are tied to how likely your customers will buy your things again
if customers want high quality and low prices then pursuing the opposite will make no one patronize you
 
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which is why socialists hate modern "capitalism" but miss the mark by blaming tradespeople rather than the policies targeting them
I don't think Socialists are actually blaming like, tilers and electricians for the current state of affairs. But where I live (Boston), these trades are all unionized.
employees can choose to leave and work at workplaces that offer higher wages or better conditions, forcing employers to compete to treat their workforce the best
without the privileges they currently have, unions would only exist as job clearinghouses and certifiers maybe
An individual worker can only choose from the options present for him. If I'm being paid 7$ an hour, but every other job only pays 6.50, then there is no better job to choose, even if 7/hr isn't enough to live on.
a couple of dairies mistreating their customers doesn't account for any dairy who wanted to stay afloat, and quality standards didn't really exist in the mid nineteenth century
the food and drug act was created fifty years after this scandal as well so i'll bet standards had risen regardless
It wasn’t a “couple of dairies”. It was a scandal that claimed the lives of 8,000 babies and involved paying off Michael Toumey to block legislation that would have put swill-milk dairies out of business. The distillery owners were paying off politicians so they could keep up their operations.

I’m sure the businesses involved would have just cleaned up their act on their own- when pigs fly!! No capitalist is ever going to do something that increases his costs unless the government makes him do it. That goes for catalytic converters, seat belts, drug QC, you name it. Even if consumers want the new innovation, capitalists sell it as an “upmarket option” instead of the norm. Idk about you but I like knowing that pretty much any modern car I buy will have the same standard safety features, and that if I buy a cheap crib/stroller/high chair that it meets the same safety standards as the more expensive options.

that's dumb
employers need employees and employees want AC, fire standards, good working practices and the best wages
if an employer worked against what employees wanted, they'd work with someone more favorable

Uh no, capitalists have historically preferred to invest in union busters, strike breakers, and offshoring rather than improve conditions for employees. (Do you really think the Bangladeshi sweatshops that make your pants have AC?!) Also, if everyone else in the city has the same shitty practices you do, then your worker is stuck- he can’t choose to work in a job that doesn’t exist, and the industrialists have ensured that all his choices are shitty ones. This is called “wage slavery.”

sales are tied to how likely your customers will buy your things again
if customers want high quality and low prices then pursuing the opposite will make no one patronize you
Some items like food and medicine, are “must haves”, meaning people are forced to buy whatever’s available even if the quality is poor. Also, the industrialists lied about their products: swill milk was marketed as “pure country milk”, lunch meat made from cows with tuberculosis were not marketed as “tuberculeicious”. If there’s no regulator holding their feet to the fire capitalists will pull out every dirty trick in the book.
it is illegal for a mail company to charge less than them
Source?
everyone is forced to pay for state healthcare so of course it's more expensive to have a private program on top of that
Private health insurance companies are one of the scummiest businesses out there. Before Obamacare, they could throw you off your plan for developing a chronic disease like cancer on the grounds that it was a “pre-existing condition”. Even today, if a health insurer denies your claim you have little recourse.
 
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