Feminism discussion thread

Why spend so much time discussing individuals instead of their ideas?

I'm not going to read the whole book, but right-wing women looks interesting. I think making it us vs them misses an important point.

By supporting their husbands, people like Phyllis Schlafely were protecting the base of their own political power and status in society.

Maybe she addresses this, but all I've got to go on are essays.
 
Why spend so much time discussing individuals instead of their ideas?

I'm not going to read the whole book, but right-wing women looks interesting. I think making it us vs them misses an important point.

By supporting their husbands, people like Phyllis Schlafely were protecting the base of their own political power and status in society.

Maybe she addresses this, but all I've got to go on are essays.
Right Wing Women is not Dworkin's most popular entry, so for now I'm going off excerpts from Goodreads. I've checked the Minuteman network (Boston Metro Area library consortium) but the only copy they have is in Brookline, and it's checked out for now. I've placed a hold on it in order to read it once it comes back in and I'll be happy to summarize it.
 
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Why spend so much time discussing individuals instead of their ideas?
PS At least for Dworkin specifically, critics like to focus on her physical appearance (esp. her size, but also her lack of interest/effort in appearing "traditionally" feminine) as a way to refute her without actually engaging with her ideas. This is a common tactic among antifeminists because it avoids giving any legitimacy to feminist ideas and lets men who don't know and don't care an avenue of attack that doesn't require anything but misogyny.

The part I find funny is that while Dworkin was famously fat, she lost a lot of weight in the last decade of her life (see pic related). But those photos of Andrea, like the one of her in her 20's I shared before, don't invite male contempt like the ones of her being fat do, so they are circulated less frequently.
 

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Right Wing Women is not Dworkin's most popular entry, so for now I'm going off excerpts from Goodreads. I've checked the Minuteman network (Boston Metro Area library consortium) but the only copy they have is in Brookline, and it's checked out for now. I've placed a hold on it in order to read it once it comes back in and I'll be happy to summarize it.
Don't do that unless you really want to read it for yourself. I read a summary, it's just I want to make sure people know I only read a summary.

PS At least for Dworkin specifically, critics like to focus on her physical appearance (esp. her size, but also her lack of interest/effort in appearing "traditionally" feminine) as a way to refute her without actually engaging with her ideas. This is a common tactic among antifeminists because it avoids giving any legitimacy to feminist ideas and lets men who don't know and don't care an avenue of attack that doesn't require anything but misogyny.
Yeah, I get that. I just don't know her ideas with any depth. Porn bad, all sex is rape, etc. I'm on a shit ton of oxycodone and I've done my best to read the past few pages, but I didn't get much from it.

My main critique of what I do know is that a lot of the philosophy she draws on as justification doesn't apply to this universe. Not in a "she's a space cadet" kind of way, but that they depend on fundamental assumptions that are not true in the physical reality in which we exist. In the most exaggerated way it's like giving life advice after reading flatworld.

I have been meaning to read "The end of gender".
 
Don't do that unless you really want to read it for yourself. I read a summary, it's just I want to make sure people know I only read a summary.
I do want to read it. I've read Intercourse and Pornography, which are the titles by her most commonly in print, and I thought those were really good.
Yeah, I get that. I just don't know her ideas with any depth. Porn bad, all sex is rape, etc. I'm on a shit ton of oxycodone and I've done my best to read the past few pages, but I didn't get much from it.
If I was to try and condense it, Dworkin asserts that women live their lives being defined by men. What women are "supposed" to want, to look, what they do, etc. is all defined on male terms. Men position themselves as the arbiters of reality and women as their fungible subjects and chattel. If you look at pick-me girls you can see what Dworkin means; some of them have no idea who the hell they are without defining themselves in comparison to a man.

So the men have centered sex (intercourse, really) around themselves. It's all about male pleasure and satisfaction, and female pleasure is not important. To Dworkin, trying to be a "sex-positive feminist" was tantamount to letting men on the Left violate you repeatedly and calling that empowerment. And because men fucking *hate* women, intercourse is peppered with themes of domination and violence. So too is porn. Men may notice that they need escalating levels of violence in their porn to be satisfied, but they don't really comprehend that they've been conditioned to see sex as an act of violence. But the vocabulary still shows, and so do the themes. They didn't just fuck, they "slay pussy", "destroy", "annihilate", "desecrate", etc.

I don't want to bore you, or anybody else, but my main criticism of Dworkin is applicability. She has a lot to say about marital rape, but afaik the exemption for rape within marriage has been taken off the books. She talks about the porn and sex shops and hookers on 42nd street in NYC, but that area has turned to an orgy of capitalism. She discusses gay liberation a lot, but today gays enjoy many more rights than they did in the 80's. These issues are obsolete so it's easy to dismiss Dworkin as obsolete.

I do think a lot of what she has to say is still rings true. There may not be an explicit law defending a husband's right to rape his wife, but the husband-wife relationship still has overtones of domination and control. (I used to joke: "I can do whatever I want, so long as my husband's OK with it!") Men don't buy porn at brick and mortar stores anymore, but it's proliferated on the Internet to cater to every fetish, and it conditions men to equate sex with violence against women. Gay women may be allowed to marry now, but TRAs still threaten to erase gay culture and replace it with a Frankenstein heterosexuality.

So there's a lot of content there, big ideas, difficult for moidlet brain to comprehend without pictures.
I did find chapter 3, "Abortion" (and only chapter 3) of Right Wing Women online. It's interesting, it repeats some themes from Intercourse maybe too often, but the information about how men see themselves in the aborted fetus is new to me, and tbh explains a lot about why moids seem to care so goddamn much about black fetuses and not a whit for the babies once they're born.
 

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I did find chapter 3, "Abortion" (and only chapter 3) of Right Wing Women online. It's interesting, it repeats some themes from Intercourse maybe too often, but the information about how men see themselves in the aborted fetus is new to me, and tbh explains a lot about why moids seem to care so goddamn much about black fetuses and not a whit for the babies once they're born.
Yeah they see potentially male fetuses as more human and relatable to them than girls and women. I don't agree with a lit of Dworkins takes, but I think she was right on the money with that.

It's like a lot of men have this mental block with seeing women and girls as people the same way they see other men (and even male embryos) as people. It's also present when they complain about movies and stuff with a female lead, like they can't/won't relate to a female protagonist because of her gender when girls and women have spent their lives relating to male ones (often due to having no choice due to so much fiction being a sausage fest).

I think her all sex is rape thing is bullshit though, and vaguely infantilizing of adult women choosing to have relationships with men (especially when most people are heterosexual).
 
I think her all sex is rape thing
It would be bullshit if she had actually said that. Common misconception, but she doesn’t say that in Intercourse and the quote is a deliberate twisting of her words.

What she actually said (I am paraphrasing) is that in a society where men associate sex with violence and female submission to their will, and if those qualities made sex “sex” to you, then all “real sex” to you would resemble rape.
 
It's like a lot of men have this mental block with seeing women and girls as people the same way they see other men (and even male embryos) as people. It's also present when they complain about movies and stuff with a female lead, like they can't/won't relate to a female protagonist because of her gender when girls and women have spent their lives relating to male ones (often due to having no choice due to so much fiction being a sausage fest).
IMO it's because the actress playing the lead is a woman, whereas the character is written to behave like a man.

Galadriel in LOTRO rings of power vs. Katniss in hunger games.
 
PS so rather than saying “Andrea thinks all sex is rape”, you might simplify it to “Andrew thinks men want their heterosexual sex acts to resemble rape” or even “all sex is rapey because of the male-defined idea about sex are rapey.”
 
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IMO it's because the actress playing the lead is a woman, whereas the character is written to behave like a man.

Galadriel in LOTRO rings of power vs. Katniss in hunger games.
See I don't get that, especially since as a masculine woman masculine female characters are the most relatable to me. Especially growing up in the 90s where it felt like every even slightly tomboyish female character had to have a makeover arc where they got girlier (particularly for a guy).

There's a reason my absolute favorite female characters as a kid was stuff like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park. No worries about a dinosaur that wants to eat people getting forced to be girly (also extremely relatable).
 
See I don't get that, especially since as a masculine woman masculine female characters are the most relatable to me. Especially growing up in the 90s where it felt like every even slightly tomboyish female character had to have a makeover arc where they got girlier (particularly for a guy).
Other specific examples (movies/chars)?

How do you know you didn't accidentally wind up admiring one of the trans dinosaurs?
 
Other specific examples (movies/chars)?

How do you know you didn't accidentally wind up admiring one of the trans dinosaurs?
The trans dinos are only mentioned in the movie. None of the specific dinos, like Rexy or The Big One, change sex. They stay gorls.

Raptor Red was my other big love as a kid. It's a book that takes place from the perspective of a female utahraptor in the early cretaceous trying to survive. Obviously, kid me was all about that shit (as is adult me).

I think non-human female characters were my thing b/c it meant 0 chance of them being forced to conform to gender stereotypes, plus as a feral autist treated like a defective subhuman by the adults in my life it made me resonate more with non-human characters.

One big exception though is San from Princess Mononoke. 11 y/o me wanted to be her so bad.
 
Dumb question but are there people who without any doubt would identify themselves as feminist on this thread? If so, how do you define it? I know it's a dumb midwit-tier question but I'm not looking to argue, I'm just curious.

In addition, do you think it's okay to make fun of fat women?
 
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Dumb question but are there people who without any doubt would identify themselves as feminist on this thread?
I would.
If so, how do you define it? I know it's a dumb midwit-tier question but I'm not looking to argue, I'm just curious.
The most basic and simple and inclusive definition for me would be anybody who believes that society holds different attitudes towards men and women, that these differences are disproportionately disadvantageous to women, and that something should change about that.
In addition, do you think it's okay to make fun of fat women?
Yes.
 
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